Guest BelieveinBrodeur Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Not Italian just like to fight cause Im good with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) So basically we threw away Rolston and White for $6+ million of cap space (after factoring in the dead cap hit to White and Hunter) and a little over half that in real money savings, lovely. There better be some sort of master plan at the end of this other than having three guys who've played less than a full season in the NHL combined start on defense once Sal is finished for good. So anyway -- I was thinking what's weird about Manta's opinions this past year is how he'd tolerate the crappy performance of the post-lockout Devils. Except they've made him look like a hockey savant for a year and a half and I'm tired of it. .500 hockey since the Kovy trade and guys just keep going out the door at ten cents on the dollar with Zach having one foot out the door. Edited August 3, 2011 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) So basically we threw away Rolston and White for $6+ million of cap space (after factoring in the dead cap hit to White and Hunter) and a little over half that in real money savings, lovely. I can't speak for the White move, but honestly - Rolston sucks. He played well with Elias - that doesn't speak to Rolston being good, it speaks to how awesome Patrik Elias is. Anyone the team puts with Elias is going to play well. Would you really want him on the point on the power play this year? He slowed the PP to a crawl, he can't pass. All he does well on the PP is shoot. Even if the Devils replace him with nothing, they're better off - they have room at the deadline now. Except they've made him look like a hockey savant for a year and a half and I'm tired of it. .500 hockey since the Kovy trade and guys just keep going out the door at ten cents on the dollar with Zach having one foot out the door. yawn. team will make the playoffs next year. Edited August 3, 2011 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 yawn. team will make the playoffs next year. All I have to say is, they better make the playoffs comfortably and re-sign Zach or Manta'll really be able to beat that 'it'll take years for us to recover from the Kovy contract' drum and he'd be justified. Lou isn't making it any easier on DeBoer with running out the kiddie corps as half the starting defense for the second straight year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyFan42 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 So basically we threw away Rolston and White for $6+ million of cap space (after factoring in the dead cap hit to White and Hunter) and a little over half that in real money savings, lovely. There better be some sort of master plan at the end of this other than having three guys who've played less than a full season in the NHL combined start on defense once Sal is finished for good. Agreed. Signing Parise for one year rather than multiple years I can understand. Trading away Rolston I can understand and even applaud. I don't get dumping White, especially when this was his last year anyway and the remaining defensive depth is on the shallow side. This had better be leading up to something big. Except they've made him look like a hockey savant for a year and a half and I'm tired of it. .500 hockey since the Kovy trade and guys just keep going out the door at ten cents on the dollar with Zach having one foot out the door. I fail to see how signing Kovy leads to dumping White (and Hunter, I suppose, though Rolston's contract needed to go, Kovy or no Kovy). The Devs already had a decent amount of cap room. If the team finances really are as dire as some think, they'd be bad regardless of Kovy's contract. Someone other than Manta please explain this one to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundstrom Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 All I have to say is, they better make the playoffs comfortably and re-sign Zach or Manta'll really be able to beat that 'it'll take years for us to recover from the Kovy contract' drum and he'd be justified. Lou isn't making it any easier on DeBoer with running out the kiddie corps as half the starting defense for the second straight year. um, last year's kiddie corps on d was magnan, fraser, corrente, taormina and fayne. fayne was a success, no two ways about it and taormina was on his way to being productive before he got hurt. the other 3 were well below average. this year's "kiddie corps" will consist of larsson and urbom along with fraser and corrente as essential place holders. that being said, my issue with letting white go is that should tallinder, volchenkov or greene sustain injury, there is zero "reliable" depth. in the end, we just have to see what these new guys can do and what deboer can do with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 the off-season isn't over and there are 5 legit NHL D still without contracts, and not many potential landing spots left in the NHL. i'm not saying lou will sign a free agent, but he certainly might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) Except they've made him look like a hockey savant for a year and a half and I'm tired of it. .500 hockey since the Kovy trade and guys just keep going out the door at ten cents on the dollar with Zach having one foot out the door. It's not hard to seem a savant when everyone understands what's going to HAVE to go down to grow the team into the right direction. I do not mind a struggling team if it's moving in the right direction. i DO mind a top of mediocre team - status quo top of the pack only to fail when it counts. I can't abide that. Manta has called NOTHING accurately. I got pretty damm specific saying without lemaire to start him off Kovalchuk was doomed to failure and the rest of the team will flounder behind him. I went BERSERK about this the second Lemaire retired. whatever -- everyone wanted MacLean and what do i know so I shut up! then I went a little nuts when failure was just getting insurmountable... and then lemaire came back... manta had no fvcking explination for THAT one did he? never discusses the second half of the season... I just read nothing productive from manta -- broad brushstrokes like Kovalchuk sucks and things are in a downward spiral... WTF is that? That's nonsense and UNTRUE. It's a strawman argument Manta never responds to my direct questions. Never provides any plan forward. Just bitches INCESSANTLY... with no solution. No course of action which SHOULD have been taken even -- other than IMPLY ONLY that he'd have preferred to stay the old failure of a course... Generalities ... it's just for losers that stupid mindset and I'm too flippin' tired ot even discuss it further Y&$^&@*)^&@$%*)&$_)%^)*$*)^$(_ Edited August 3, 2011 by Pepperkorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) I fail to see how signing Kovy leads to dumping White (and Hunter, I suppose, though Rolston's contract needed to go, Kovy or no Kovy). The Devs already had a decent amount of cap room. If the team finances really are as dire as some think, they'd be bad regardless of Kovy's contract. Someone other than Manta please explain this one to me. Being way over the cap last year and having a $100 million contract on the books with $11 million plus payments due the next few years are a contributing factor to bad finances, no? Not to mention the Kovy deal is probably encouraging Zach to go for every last dollar a little more. um, last year's kiddie corps on d was magnan, fraser, corrente, taormina and fayne. fayne was a success, no two ways about it and taormina was on his way to being productive before he got hurt. the other 3 were well below average. this year's "kiddie corps" will consist of larsson and urbom along with fraser and corrente as essential place holders. Fayne was awful until JL got here, Taormina lasted nineteen games and had White on the other side of him to compensate for his own defensive shortcomings. While MacLean was a terrible coach, having the kiddie corps on D contributed to the bad first half. I don't think it'll get that bad under DeBoer but this team really needs to get out of the blocks fast to put last year behind them. Edited August 3, 2011 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMac16 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 hmmm interestingg i guess we'll see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derlique Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 no, i think they expected there to be a trade market for white. but with someone like scott hannan still an unrestricted free agent, that market hasn't materialized. I think hannan will command more than 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 fayne was not awful before JL got here. he made some mistakes, but the talent was clearly there. NJ had an .862 even strength save percentage when he was on the ice under maclean which i don't think i need to tell you that that is totally unsustainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsrule33 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) I don't think finances are as bad as many think, but here is a hypothetical scenario based on facts we know from TG and common sense. After the season ends, it is clear the Devils need to shed payroll to fit Parise, Salvador, Greene along with making needed changes to improve the team. Lou knows Rolston is unhappy playing outside of the top two lines, but doesn't see any place for him going forward in the top two lines. Brian knows he will be moved at any chance Lou can deal him. He welcomes any trade and a fresh start, especially from a team that can give him top 6 minutes. This is agreed upon by him and Lou. As the season comes to an end, Lou wants to shed one more salary from a higher priced player. He interviews all the veterans about what went wrong, how they can improve, what happened, etc. Lou has obviously scene a pattern with countless coaching changes throughout the years. One common element to that has been Colin White. White has had a letter for many of the problems since the lockout and the many coaching changes. He has seen good friends like Langenbrunner, Madden, Gionta, Pandolfo go. He has also seen some tough endings with good soldiers like the aforementioned Jamie, Madden, Pando, and Rolston last season. Lou and him agree that the best thing for Colin and the team is a change of scenery for a number of reasons that are fairly obvious given what has transpired. Lou tells him I'll try and move you to a team of your choice. He tries all off-season when he isn't busy with the draft, free agency, coaching search, Parise to find a fit for White. GMs tell him to wait until later in the summer once they are done most of their moves. Unfortunately, he has no takers and tells Colin that I'll buy you out and give you a chance to sign with anyone you want. It's what is best for you and the team moving forward. Lou doesn't want to buy out or try to trade Clarkson or Zubrus because he loves Clarkson and thinks both bring much needed size to a forward group which is very small. He believes a combination of Volchenkov, Salvador and Fraser can bring toughness on the back-end. Now during this whole time is Lou been given a strict internal cap he must follow? I don't think so. He might have been told to try and cut salaries where possible, but not at the expense of the team. And I don't think he felt either move is at the expense of the team. Rolston was clearly not a loss. A healthy Parise bumps him off the second line and gives Tedenby/Henrique/Clarkson/Palmieri third line minutes. Remember, this is Lou trying to be pro-active and avoiding similar situations that happened last year with Brian and Jamie. This is him cleaning up his mistakes well before they can hurt morale/locker room/on ice play. It allows a young coach to work with eager young players fighting for ice time instead of disgruntled veterans. It helps avoid many of the problems that plagued J-Mac last year and veterans of the past. But one thing is clear to me: The Kovalchuk contract has absolutely nothing to do with any of this at all. Nothing. Edited August 3, 2011 by devilsrule33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Remember, this is Lou trying to be pro-active and avoiding similar situations that happened last year with Brian and Jamie. This is him cleaning up his mistakes well before they can hurt morale/locker room/on ice play. It allows a young coach to work with eager young players fighting for ice time instead of disgruntled veterans. It helps avoid many of the problems that plagued J-Mac last year and veterans of the past. I hate cutting part out of what is a great post, but yeah, that's what I think he's doing. The point is simple - if you don't like your ice time, and you're a veteran player, you're not welcome here. Ice time is earned, it isn't given (well, except to Kovalchuk). We had Arnott, Rolston, and Langenbrunner bitching about ice time. White's ice time was diminished at the end of the year, maybe he wasn't happy with that. The fact that top 6 minutes mean so much to Rolston meant he had to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsrule33 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) I hate cutting part out of what is a great post, but yeah, that's what I think he's doing. The point is simple - if you don't like your ice time, and you're a veteran player, you're not welcome here. Ice time is earned, it isn't given (well, except to Kovalchuk). We had Arnott, Rolston, and Langenbrunner bitching about ice time. White's ice time was diminished at the end of the year, maybe he wasn't happy with that. The fact that top 6 minutes mean so much to Rolston meant he had to go. And just to add one more thing. I think we're seeing Lou finally...finally...get what so many of us wanted over the years. To change the old guard, the coach killers, etc. It's just Brodeur and Elias...that's it. Even if Lou wanted to get rid of Elias (not seeing he wants to or ever would just it's almost impossible). Two players with rings. That might scare people, but I for one welcome our new inexperienced overlords. Clearly it wasn't working, and you can't be unhappy about Larry, Lou, Julien, Lou, Sutter, Lemaire, MacLean, Lemaire, Deboer, and then be unhappy with these moves. It took Lou long enough, but past success and loyalty turned into a combination of self-entitlement, groupthink, and then the disease of me. Maybe it took Lou to see Claude Julien take an inexperienced Bruins team to the Cup finals to say maybe it was them and not the damn coach. It finally took Lou a few years to forget about the past and do what's right for this team to succeed moving forward. Follow the NFL route where veterans (no matter how successful in the past) are cut at the right time, which is as soon as they start to decline, or sometimes right before. And maybe, I was guilty of this last year, but am finally seeing it a lot more clearer. A guy like Rolston might be the nicest guy in the locker room, and a guy like Jamie might be a great guy for the younger guys like Zach and Travis, but that doesn't mean that they deserve what they want, and it doesn't mean they can act the way they do. When you become a Devil, respecting the history, the crest on the front and not the name on the back, the team values, and so on is what you are taught and what you should follow. Guys like Pandolfo, Rolston, White, Langenbrunner, Arnott, Madden, even Elias are the players you respect. They are the veterans, the warriors, the champions But the reality is they were not acting like leaders. The last few years has not always been a good environment for younger players. And it probably was a partial reason why this team has gone in prolong slumps. Younger players were probably taking the wrong cues from veteran players. As corny as it sounds, the past is almost finished being wiped away. It's time for a new beginning, a new generation and new leaders. This is an exciting time. There will be growing pains, and there will be bumps. But these bumps will be much better than the ones of the past 6 years. Because Lou and the Devils are doing it the right way. Finally. Edited August 3, 2011 by devilsrule33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 another great post - it's wild to think about next year's team, when they first became devils, besides brodeur and elias: 05-06: parise, janssen 06-07: greene, clarkson, zajac, fraser, pelley 07-08: zubrus, salvador 08-09: 09-10: kovalchuk, palmieri, zharkov 10-11: tallinder, volchenkov, tedenby, josefson, fayne, taormina, hedberg, steckel, urbom 11-12: boulton, larsson(?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamtheprodigy Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 dr33 hitting the nail on the head in this thread. I like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Remember, this is Lou trying to be pro-active and avoiding similar situations that happened last year with Brian and Jamie. This is him cleaning up his mistakes well before they can hurt morale/locker room/on ice play. It allows a young coach to work with eager young players fighting for ice time instead of disgruntled veterans. It helps avoid many of the problems that plagued J-Mac last year and veterans of the past. I'd like to believe that...I'd be more apt to believe that in Rolston's case considering he is moody and only gave max effort as a Devil after he got waived last year. I never got the impression of White as one of the problems, other than maybe when he sided with Jamie publicly against Lemaire two years ago (admittedly, Lemaire put him in a tough spot with the whole C for a game nonsense) but you're right, the pattern can't be denied. Honestly I'd probably be looking at things more the way you are if it wasn't for the Parise stormcloud still hanging over our heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Great posts, dr33. So this is what rebuilding is like ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepperkorn Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) thank you dr33 - I could have sworn I've been writing the same thing ad nausium since last Summer. one more thing I'd add ... Lou isn't just doing this on his own. He's getting input from his coaching staff. You can see plainly what Lou put together from observations made by Lemaire and Robinson throughout the years - particularly where White is concerned. Lou isn't doing all this in a vacuum or merely at the behest of JVB. Noone has to read this -- that's why I'm going back and editing it in actually - I've been going way deeper and doing the psycho-babble. For me saying you don't like your minutes, then go somewhere else is -- it's a dude simplification and I think it's required and all the rest of it is unspoken but there and everyone knows it and dudes just dont talk that way. tldr. I'm a chick - I never want to hurt anyone's feelings and I want people to understand the core of the problem. And I'm writing to the players in my head here of course. Langenbrunner, White, Madden all could have stayed but they dont get it -- they dont understand the system. How the hell can I expect anyone here to either... It' so beautiful though... I can't take it off the table I'm like Lemaire even... Thank god for Lou and dr33! Edited August 3, 2011 by Pepperkorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsfan118 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Seriously great posts, wow. Good stuff. Great posts, dr33. So this is what rebuilding is like ... Hopefully minus the years of habitual suck-age, though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95Crash Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 And just to add one more thing. I think we're seeing Lou finally...finally...get what so many of us wanted over the years. To change the old guard, the coach killers, etc. It's just Brodeur and Elias...that's it. Even if Lou wanted to get rid of Elias (not seeing he wants to or ever would just it's almost impossible). Two players with rings. That might scare people, but I for one welcome our new inexperienced overlords. Clearly it wasn't working, and you can't be unhappy about Larry, Lou, Julien, Lou, Sutter, Lemaire, MacLean, Lemaire, Deboer, and then be unhappy with these moves. It took Lou long enough, but past success and loyalty turned into a combination of self-entitlement, groupthink, and then the disease of me. Maybe it took Lou to see Claude Julien take an inexperienced Bruins team to the Cup finals to say maybe it was them and not the damn coach. It finally took Lou a few years to forget about the past and do what's right for this team to succeed moving forward. Follow the NFL route where veterans (no matter how successful in the past) are cut at the right time, which is as soon as they start to decline, or sometimes right before. And maybe, I was guilty of this last year, but am finally seeing it a lot more clearer. A guy like Rolston might be the nicest guy in the locker room, and a guy like Jamie might be a great guy for the younger guys like Zach and Travis, but that doesn't mean that they deserve what they want, and it doesn't mean they can act the way they do. When you become a Devil, respecting the history, the crest on the front and not the name on the back, the team values, and so on is what you are taught and what you should follow. Guys like Pandolfo, Rolston, White, Langenbrunner, Arnott, Madden, even Elias are the players you respect. They are the veterans, the warriors, the champions But the reality is they were not acting like leaders. The last few years has not always been a good environment for younger players. And it probably was a partial reason why this team has gone in prolong slumps. Younger players were probably taking the wrong cues from veteran players. As corny as it sounds, the past is almost finished being wiped away. It's time for a new beginning, a new generation and new leaders. This is an exciting time. There will be growing pains, and there will be bumps. But these bumps will be much better than the ones of the past 6 years. Because Lou and the Devils are doing it the right way. Finally. Not a bad way to look at the current state of affairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyFan42 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Great posts, dr33. So this is what rebuilding is like ... I think it's more like the half-rebuilding that Sather tried last decade... only Lou's actually getting it somewhat right. But yes, great posts from dr33 here. Definitely made me feel better about losing Colin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaneykoIsGod Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I think it's more like the half-rebuilding that Sather tried last decade... only Lou's actually getting it somewhat right. But yes, great posts from dr33 here. Definitely made me feel better about losing Colin. I probably should have worded it better, like "This is what Lou's idea of rebuilding is like" or something. And here's a thought ... we've been looking at this as though it was a Lou move. Like he's pushing the team in a certain direction and White went along with it. But what if it was White's idea and he wanted out? Maybe the acquisitions of Tallinder and Volchenkov, signing of Greene, recovery of Salvador, drafting of Larsson and promise of Fayne, Taormina and Urbom were all a loud and clear sign to White that his ice time wasn't gonna be where he wanted it. Maybe he saw it get ugly with other vets past or near their peak years expiration dates like Langs, Rolston and Arnott and didn't wanna be that guy. And, being one of Lou's loyal soldiers, Lou did everything he could for White. He kept it quiet so White wouldn't be looked at as a turncoat. He tried to trade him to a favorable team, and when that didn't happen he bought him out and let him control his own destiny. I'd like to think it's more Lou learning from past mistakes and doing what he thinks is best for the team, but it could very well be that Whitey just wanted out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derlique Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 And just to add one more thing. I think we're seeing Lou finally...finally...get what so many of us wanted over the years. To change the old guard, the coach killers, etc. It's just Brodeur and Elias...that's it. Even if Lou wanted to get rid of Elias (not seeing he wants to or ever would just it's almost impossible). Two players with rings. That might scare people, but I for one welcome our new inexperienced overlords. Clearly it wasn't working, and you can't be unhappy about Larry, Lou, Julien, Lou, Sutter, Lemaire, MacLean, Lemaire, Deboer, and then be unhappy with these moves. It took Lou long enough, but past success and loyalty turned into a combination of self-entitlement, groupthink, and then the disease of me. Maybe it took Lou to see Claude Julien take an inexperienced Bruins team to the Cup finals to say maybe it was them and not the damn coach. It finally took Lou a few years to forget about the past and do what's right for this team to succeed moving forward. Follow the NFL route where veterans (no matter how successful in the past) are cut at the right time, which is as soon as they start to decline, or sometimes right before. And maybe, I was guilty of this last year, but am finally seeing it a lot more clearer. A guy like Rolston might be the nicest guy in the locker room, and a guy like Jamie might be a great guy for the younger guys like Zach and Travis, but that doesn't mean that they deserve what they want, and it doesn't mean they can act the way they do. When you become a Devil, respecting the history, the crest on the front and not the name on the back, the team values, and so on is what you are taught and what you should follow. Guys like Pandolfo, Rolston, White, Langenbrunner, Arnott, Madden, even Elias are the players you respect. They are the veterans, the warriors, the champions But the reality is they were not acting like leaders. The last few years has not always been a good environment for younger players. And it probably was a partial reason why this team has gone in prolong slumps. Younger players were probably taking the wrong cues from veteran players. As corny as it sounds, the past is almost finished being wiped away. It's time for a new beginning, a new generation and new leaders. This is an exciting time. There will be growing pains, and there will be bumps. But these bumps will be much better than the ones of the past 6 years. Because Lou and the Devils are doing it the right way. Finally. Great post and I agree with almost everything you said, but there is one thing that bugs me. There is no player in the NHL that has more of an influence on his team than Martin Brodeur. I wouldn't doubt if he has played a large role in the coaching roller coaster. To say that White, Langs (well we know he and Lemaire had issues), Madden etc. were the problems and no mention of Brodeur is probably wrong. I don't see why White had to be a casualty when our defense is clearly gonna be worse without him. I'm sorry, but I don't see how a 18/19 year old Adam Larsson or Matt Taormina is going to replace his stellar defensive play. I'm a very optimistic person, but something hasn't seemed quite "right" with the Devils' interior for awhile now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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