Summer 2013 UFA/RFA Thread

[sundstrom]

I don't buy that - there are situations where I would, but this is not one of them.  I don't believe that there is some hidden giant market this year.  Remember, most years we wouldn't know what the cap number is for next year yet.  This year we know it.  So I don't think Gonchar and Streit signed for anything below what they would get on the market.  

 

i'm not saying they did - they're close to UFA and this is essentially setting the market.

 

my point is, you would have had a better chance of getting zidlicky on a 2/8 deal and elias on a 2/11 deal during the later part of the season or right after. now - not so much. i think elias could very well get 3/18. and zid is going to get at worst 2/10 and probably 3/15.

[Triumph]

again you dont understand at all what im saying. sigh... i seriously cant fvcking believe how people dont get what im saying its like you guys do it on purpose sometimes. i DONT look at things black and white but when i still need to throw EXAMPLES to the table for my points and you guys usually jump and look at the specific of the EXAMPLES i brought. every single fvcking time thats what happen.

 

You're being accused of looking at things in black and white because Travis Zajac signed a year early.  Martin Brodeur and Scott Stevens once signed mid-season contracts.  Lou is not as intransigent as you think.

 

 

get me here please for the love of god... Lou has pretty much his one way of doing everything and he's gonna stick with it without adjusting to situations. Its gonna have to work his way or its not gonna work at all. Thats not a good way to make business. he's still stuck in the past thinking there's still such thing has loyalty and the team is not as attractive as it was before.

 

This is silly.  There's not such a thing as loyalty?  How many star players are we going to see hardly change teams at all before we have to revise this claim?  Getzlaf and Perry signed up to be basically lifelong Ducks.  Zajac to the Devils forever.  Malkin and Crosby are in Pittsburgh for a very long time.  Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Franzen.  The Sedins figure to be Canucks for life.  Teemu Selanne has been signing one year contracts for how long now?  On the Devils, Zajac, Elias, Brodeur, and Greene have never played for another team.  If Clarkson signs here, he will have spent the bulk of his career with contracts signed by one team.  I think, all else being equal, players prefer staying where they are.  Free agency is stressful, moving is stressful, and a new organization brings all sorts of new challenges.  If the dollars/years aren't there, or if a player doesn't have faith in a team's management, etc. fine, leave.

 

And of course BEFORE Lou had that going for him and it certainly helped his "stats" as a GM. But we don't have that anymore, how many top players would have NJ on their short list of teams they'd like to be in?

 

I could not care less about this.  You don't win by signing top players, because top players under this system are almost never going to come available.  

 

how many wingers dream of being centered by Zajac? How many dmen would like to have 2 dinosaurs behind them to cover for their mistakes and sign a long term deal when they have no clue who the fvck will even be in nets in 2 years? Then how many youngsters or guys would want to play for a guy like Lou and an average team? think about it really... would you want Lou to be your boss? hard nose and stuborn oldschool guy that you have to stay in line and clean shave and you cannot have twitter or any social connections to the fans or anything. Some players may like that, older guys i assume but im sure it would turn off some players, would it be a good reasons? absolutely not but its still true.

 

Devils are all about the team - players get treated real well if they follow the rules.  He's revised several of his policies, but most importantly, the rule that players have to stay in hotels the entire playoffs is out the window.  

 

so its NOT like im saying that Lou should trade guys before losing them UNDERSTAND THAT. what im saying is that he's not getting any leverage or putting the chances on his sides not getting to talk before its too late. Look at situations like Cammalleri or Staal for EXAMPLES... i repeat those are isolated EXAMPLES so please focus on the principle here. They started to talk early and the GM then knew they couldnt retain those guys or that there was a risk so they adjusted and traded them instead of losing them for nothing. With Lou he would have lost both cause he would have begin talks too late and at that point it would have been too late.

 

This is the problem - you don't have any idea about this.  You don't know if this has or hasn't happened.  And again, the examples only make sense in certain instances.  If you can get the right return for players, sure.  But the Devils have been in Cup or bust mode since about 2006.  Which comes with having a pretty good team.  The Penguins had the luxury of being able to trade Staal because Staal knew where he wanted to play long-term.  The Devils could've done this with Scott Niedermayer, except that there was a full-season lockout.

 

Plus like Zach and Elias said (i'll re-phrase merging what they both said) if a player wants to stay in the organization and that the GM want to keep them, why not just sign him? when the player feels good about the place and everything. Why wait to the point when the players as been away from the team and see other teams doing well in the playoffs and may start to wonder the what if he was somewhere else and think... well i just have to wait a few extra week and see where i could go and how much money i could really get?

 

Sign them to the exact terms they want?  Of course!  You've hit it.  It takes two to make a deal.  And again, Travis Zajac signed early.  

i'm not saying they did - they're close to UFA and this is essentially setting the market.

 

my point is, you would have had a better chance of getting zidlicky on a 2/8 deal and elias on a 2/11 deal during the later part of the season or right after. now - not so much. i think elias could very well get 3/18. and zid is going to get at worst 2/10 and probably 3/15.

 

No.  That doesn't make any sense.  Everyone knows the cap number.  There is no 'set market'.  C'mon - you know better than this.

[SterioDesign]

 

Sign them to the exact terms they want?  Of course!  You've hit it.  It takes two to make a deal.  And again, Travis Zajac signed early.  

 

im just gonna reply to this cause that's pretty much my whole point and youre trying to go around it here...

 

"Plus like Zach and Elias said (i'll re-phrase merging what they both said) if a player wants to stay in the organization and that the GM want to keep them, why not just sign him? when the player feels good about the place and everything. Why wait to the point when the players as been away from the team and see other teams doing well in the playoffs and may start to wonder the what if he was somewhere else and think... well i just have to wait a few extra week and see where i could go and how much money i could really get?"

 

where the hell did i say that he should sign them to the exact terms that they want or anything? lol its all about the timing. stop ignoring this.

 

The job of the GM is try to keep his assets to the best value. How is waiting last minute and not approaching players until few days before free agency where the market price will obviously be higher and players have that leverage. Also like i said before you gotta try to get the player in the best "mood". Its like ANYTHING if you want something from someone... ask him when he's in a good mood or in a favourable position.

 

Here's an examples not hockey related at all about that whole psychology 

 

1- you got a crush on that girl in college and all year you kind of flirt but you're not making anything official really its just flirt so you both don't really know what's up and where its heading. And even if she's kinda asking you whats up between you 2 you kind of brush it off saying we'll see how it is before we leave home for summer each on our sides. If deep inside you really want to have her. Are you gonna ask her out officially while you're always together and having a good time and when you're "everything" for her. Or the day before she leaves back home for summer and that you won't see her for awhile and that she might think that after all there's other guys around. Of course it can works out fine and everything is okay but why even take that risk? And that's if you actually know what she's feeling. Sometime you have no clue if she's just nice with you or if she really wants more. Well by waiting til you're leaving for summer you do no put chances on your side to win her and convinced her when she has a foot out of the door for a few month.

 

obviously thats a ridiculous comparison but its basically what im saying. Everyone went through situations like that too, and sometimes of course you had it easy cause that person really wanted you but some other time it took some convincing for awhile. I know people that are married with kids now that at first the girl didnt even wanted to be with the guy. Fair to say if she would have had only a week to think about if she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him that their story would have been a lot different.

[Triumph]

im just gonna reply to this cause that's pretty much my whole point and youre trying to go around it here..

 

 

"Plus like Zach and Elias said (i'll re-phrase merging what they both said) if a player wants to stay in the organization and that the GM want to keep them, why not just sign him? when the player feels good about the place and everything. Why wait to the point when the players as been away from the team and see other teams doing well in the playoffs and may start to wonder the what if he was somewhere else and think... well i just have to wait a few extra week and see where i could go and how much money i could really get?"

 

where the hell did i say that he should sign them to the exact terms that they want or anything? lol its all about the timing. stop ignoring this.

 

The job of the GM is try to keep his assets to the best value. How is waiting last minute and not approaching players until few days before free agency where the market price will obviously be higher and players have that leverage. Also like i said before you gotta try to get the player in the best "mood". Its like ANYTHING if you want something from someone... ask him when he's in a good mood or in a favourable position.

 

Because there is risk involved with signing players early.  You seem to regard the signing of the player as the most important thing.  I don't.  Ultimately that's what you want, but you want it at a good price.  You also seem to think that teams should go up to good players a year early, ask if they want to negotiate a contract to stay long-term, and if they don't, they should be traded.  I don't believe that either.

 

It all depends on how you want to run your team - which risk would you rather run - losing a player to free agency or having a bad contract because the player you signed early got hurt?  You don't seem to grasp that neither is inherently superior for a team like NJ that has limited dollars.

[ghdi]

 

 

The job of the GM is try to keep his assets to the best value. How is waiting last minute and not approaching players until few days before free agency where the market price will obviously be higher and players have that leverage. Also like i said before you gotta try to get the player in the best "mood". Its like ANYTHING if you want something from someone... ask him when he's in a good mood or in a favourable position.

 

 

 I don't think this is entirely fair. For all we know Parise was intent on going to UFA last year, and who could blame him (other than the "I want to stay" BS that Zach spewed to the media all year)? It seems obvious to me that there was an agreement between him and the organization to sign a bridge deal after his injury. I don't think it's fair to blame Lou for Parise. We know that he was offered more money to stay here, but chose to go home to Minnesota. We know the Devils won't talk about this. For all we do know, Lou went to Zach earlier in the season and was turned down because Zach and his agents knew what UFA meant. He was the #1 FWD available and got paid like one. I think both sides are getting too much blame, but its much fairer to blame the guy who left when he was offered more to stay. I think Zach was leaning towards leaning for a while and not much other than a cold market would've gotten him to stay.

 

Elias is a different beast. He's 37 years old and the last time around went to UFA for five minutes and chose to stay. This is also the only organization he's ever known and is not in the same position as Parise was being still in his prime. I think that's what's going to happen again. It's not the worst thing in a world to let a guy go to the market and see what they're worth. It very well could save us a million or two. If someone wants to throw 37 year old Elias 6M for 3 years, then as hard as it is for me to say, let him go. There's no use hamstringing our roster to bad over 35+ deals that rarely work out. I'm content with overpaying for Elias b/c his loyalty deserves to be repaid and its so rare these days for someone to stay with the same organization their whole career.

[Zubie#8]

lisa dillman ‏@reallisa 5m

Slava Voynov deal done. Six years, $25 million.

 

Voynov is becoming one of my favorites in this league, I like his game.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: uh oh, a Tri SD reunion!

 

I'll just be here like...

Edited June 18, 2013 by Zubie#8

[Daniel]

Sterio, once and for all, you have to put the Parise thing to bed. 

 

The only conceivable way he was going to stay was if he was offered a Kovalchuk-esque contract before the start of the 2011-2012 season.  If you want to say he should have been given that offer, fine, but there isn't really much more to discuss.

 

There's also not much to discuss so far as whether he should have been traded.  If you're of the view that every year it's Stanley Cup or bust, then by definition, he should have been traded.  Fine.  We can play the guessing game so far as what Lou could have gotten in return but it's ultimately a pointless exercise.

 

And for the millionth time, you cannot compare players being re-signed right now and during the old CBA.  This CBA gives the incumbent team advantages that did not exist in the prior CBA, and gives an incentive to the player to re-up with the same team.  There can be little doubt that if Parise were set to be a free agent this year, he would have been re-signed, or that it would have been made clear to Lou that Parise just wanted to play for another team for less money, at which point a trade would have been made.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Daniel

[GoArmySports]

I actually think Parise wanted to stay with the Devils but the Wild just gave him an offer he couldn't refuse. I don't remember where I read this but I remember reading that the Devils offered Parise 7 years 50mill during his RFA summer but he turned it down since his agents felt like he could get more on the open market.

 

I miss the guy just as much as any other Devils fan but to think we are still talking about him one year later amazes me.

 

Let's Go Devils!

[2ELIAS6]

im sick of hearing about fvcking parise Jesus Christ.. i dont know what is wrong with people constantly beating a dead horse he left who gives a fvck move on.. like its the only thing to talk about. try worrying more about the current players that are about to hit free agency because as usual there are no deals being heard of with them.

[SterioDesign]

Sterio, once and for all, you have to put the Parise thing to bed. 

 

The only conceivable way he was going to stay was if he was offered a Kovalchuk-esque contract before the start of the 2011-2012 season.  If you want to say he should have been given that offer, fine, but there isn't really much more to discuss.

 

There's also not much to discuss so far as whether he should have been traded.  If you're of the view that every year it's Stanley Cup or bust, then by definition, he should have been traded.  Fine.  We can play the guessing game so far as what Lou could have gotten in return but it's ultimately a pointless exercise.

 

And for the millionth time, you cannot compare players being re-signed right now and during the old CBA.  This CBA gives the incumbent team advantages that did not exist in the prior CBA, and gives an incentive to the player to re-up with the same team.  There can be little doubt that if Parise were set to be a free agent this year, he would have been re-signed, or that it would have been made clear to Lou that Parise just wanted to play for another team for less money, at which point a trade would have been made.

 

Put it to rest? i was not even talking about Zach. Did you even read what i wrote? There's absolutely no way that you guys are absolutely reading what im saying. 

Edited June 18, 2013 by SterioDesign

[CarpathianForest]

I actually think Parise wanted to stay with the Devils but the Wild just gave him an offer he couldn't refuse. I don't remember where I read this but I remember reading that the Devils offered Parise 7 years 50mill during his RFA summer but he turned it down since his agents felt like he could get more on the open market.

 

I miss the guy just as much as any other Devils fan but to think we are still talking about him one year later amazes me.

 

Let's Go Devils!

 

Parise had no intention of remaining a Devil. He was conspiring to land with Suter the Cooter on the same team during the 11-12 season.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I actually think Parise wanted to stay with the Devils but the Wild just gave him an offer he couldn't refuse. I don't remember where I read this but I remember reading that the Devils offered Parise 7 years 50mill during his RFA summer but he turned it down since his agents felt like he could get more on the open market.

 

I miss the guy just as much as any other Devils fan but to think we are still talking about him one year later amazes me.

 

Let's Go Devils!

 

It's one guy who does it...not directly anymore, but every time he whines about how Lou does biz, it pretty much goes back to that, and clearly it still bothers him. 

 

Tri pretty much summed up SD's A-or-B mentality re: potential UFAs in his last post. 

 

Sik02gt, in fairness, it's trying (but failing repeatedly) to get SD to stop beating the dead horse by explaining that it's not all about either trying to sign a guy before he hits the market, and if that can't be done, then trade him.  There's shades-of-gray situations, and it's already been discussed why Parise's was one of them. 

 

It's also been pointed out to SD that Lou doesn't ALWAYS take the same approach each time (Zajac, Brodeur, Stevens, etc)...hell, the Zajac move looks like it might even backfire a little...but SD doesn't acknowledge these points when they are made.     

[SterioDesign]

Because there is risk involved with signing players early.  You seem to regard the signing of the player as the most important thing.  I don't.  Ultimately that's what you want, but you want it at a good price.  You also seem to think that teams should go up to good players a year early, ask if they want to negotiate a contract to stay long-term, and if they don't, they should be traded.  I don't believe that either.

 

It all depends on how you want to run your team - which risk would you rather run - losing a player to free agency or having a bad contract because the player you signed early got hurt?  You don't seem to grasp that neither is inherently superior for a team like NJ that has limited dollars.

 

You can get a better price signing a guy early than when he has the leverage of saying he want to test the market the week after to crank his price. Plus you're only bidding against yourself at that point, near trade deadline and after the draft teams are clearing up space and set themselves to be buyers and agents and rumours are already spreading that this this and this teams are interested in a player and of course he's hearing about it and start to wonder. 

 

you can't be too worried about injuries or you never gonna go forward thats a risk that you cant calculate. ANY players can get hurt at any time doing anything. To think like that is like those overprotective mothers who keep their kids on a leash and doesnt let them do anything close to be dangerous. Those kids doesnt turn out good too often.

 

Just for the record if you still think that im saying that Lou should re-sign all his players early and give them wtv money they want... well i dont know what to tell you. You'd be the "wall" in the sentence "talking to a wall" 

It's one guy who does it...not directly anymore, but every time he whines about how Lou does biz, it pretty much goes back to that, and clearly it still bothers him. 

 

Tri pretty much summed up SD's A-or-B mentality re: potential UFAs in his last post. 

 

Sik02gt, in fairness, it's trying (but failing repeatedly) to get SD to stop beating the dead horse by explaining that it's not all about either trying to sign a guy before he hits the market, and if that can't be done, then trade him.  There's shades-of-gray situations, and it's already been discussed why Parise's was one of them. 

 

It's also been pointed out to SD that Lou doesn't ALWAYS take the same approach each time (Zajac, Brodeur, Stevens, etc)...hell, the Zajac move looks like it might even backfire a little...but SD doesn't acknowledge these points when they are made.     

 

3 guys in like 20+ years... fvck yeah. here goes my point. damn. How many guys walked or we had to throw them more money cause they had free agency leverage now? it's more than 3

[2ELIAS6]

ON ANOTHER MORE IMPORTANT CURRENT NOTE.. just read an article that toronto may not be willing to dish out the cashola for clarkson that everyone has been projecting.. hmm i wonder when he hits the market what his real worth will end up being

[ghdi]

ON ANOTHER MORE IMPORTANT CURRENT NOTE.. just read an article that toronto may not be willing to dish out the cashola for clarkson that everyone has been projecting.. hmm i wonder when he hits the market what his real worth will end up being

 

If Clarkson gets anything less than high-4 to mid-5, I'd be stunned. James Mirtle (Toronto writer) mentioned the other day that he could get double what he makes now. Word to the wise, if you're going to state that you "read an article" please post the link.

[ghdi]

 

 

3 guys in like 20+ years... fvck yeah. here goes my point. damn. How many guys walked or we had to throw them more money cause they had free agency leverage now? it's more than 3

 

Better way of asking this question: How many guys walked that we (Lou) wanted to keep? Niedermayer, Parise, and....? We knew Gomez was a goner (and rightfully so). We knew Holik was a goner (and rightfully so). Rafalski, Paul Martin, Brian Gionta, John Madden...most of our losses were guys who either got stupid contracts or we were going to let walk anyway. Or they wanted out (like Martin & I believe Parise wanted out). Not everyone wants to stay w/ this franchise.

Edited June 18, 2013 by ghdi

[2ELIAS6]

If Clarkson gets anything less than high-4 to mid-5, I'd be stunned. James Mirtle (Toronto writer) mentioned the other day that he could get double what he makes now. Word to the wise, if you're going to state that you "read an article" please post the link.

here you go "word to the wise"... www.theleafsnation.com

[Triumph]

You can get a better price signing a guy early than when he has the leverage of saying he want to test the market the week after to crank his price. Plus you're only bidding against yourself at that point, near trade deadline and after the draft teams are clearing up space and set themselves to be buyers and agents and rumours are already spreading that this this and this teams are interested in a player and of course he's hearing about it and start to wonder.

 

You make it sounds like players and agents are fools.  The only reason why players signing early get 'less' (ostensibly) is because they are mitigating risk for themselves.  The team takes on some of the risk that the player will get hurt for a lower price.  Players and agents are not stupid.  Also you haven't adjusted to the new CBA but that's another issue, and this doesn't really apply this year because we know what the cap number is ahead of time, most years we don't.  

 

 

you can't be too worried about injuries or you never gonna go forward thats a risk that you cant calculate. ANY players can get hurt at any time doing anything. To think like that is like those overprotective mothers who keep their kids on a leash and doesnt let them do anything close to be dangerous. Those kids doesnt turn out good too often.

 

This is ridiculous.  Injury should absolutely be a concern of every GM.  In fact, it's why 8 year deals and the like are still pretty awful, all things considered.  You can't prevent injury, but you can save yourself a lot of headaches by not signing injury-prone players, and you can mitigate some risk of long-term injury by not signing players early.

 

 

 

Just for the record if you still think that im saying that Lou should re-sign all his players early and give them wtv money they want... well i dont know what to tell you. You'd be the "wall" in the sentence "talking to a wall"

 

Most of your statements imply this.  Most of what you say implies that losing a player in free agency is the worst thing that can happen to a team.  It's not.  When your team is looking to contend for a championship, it's a perfectly legitimate thing to have happen.

 

 

3 guys in like 20+ years... fvck yeah. here goes my point. damn. How many guys walked or we had to throw them more money cause they had free agency leverage now? it's more than 3

 

Like this one, for example.  How many Tom Potis have the Devils had?  Guys they signed a year early for no reason and they got hurt for basically the duration of their contract?  It's less than 3.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Triumph

[Triumph]

Better way of asking this question: How many guys walked that we (Lou) wanted to keep? Niedermayer, Parise, and....? We knew Gomez was a goner (and rightfully so). We knew Holik was a goner (and rightfully so). Rafalski, Paul Martin, Brian Gionta, John Madden...most of our losses were guys who either got stupid contracts or we were going to let walk anyway. Or they wanted out (like Martin & I believe Parise wanted out). Not everyone wants to stay w/ this franchise.

 

The Devils made an offer to Holik, they didn't really make offers to any of these other guys besides Niedermayer and Parise, neither of whom 'wanted out' (as opposed to say, Martin and Gomez), but just wanted to go somewhere else more than they wanted to stay.

[ghdi]

here you go "word to the wise"... www.theleafsnation.com

 

Not to nitpick, but nothing in the articles there state anything about the Leafs organization not wanting to spend for him. Its opinions of a blogger that doesn't think he's worth $5M per. I don't think there's one fan that thinks Clarkson is worth that much. The Leafs aren't his only potential destination. The Red Wings are rumored to have interest as well, and both have cap space. Who knows who else may throw him an offer. He's going to be one of the most sought after guys this year because the market is so thin.

[Derlique]

Christ...I'm more angry at Parise because I have to hear about him every day than actually leaving

[Triumph]

Christ...I'm more angry at Parise because I have to hear about him every day than actually leaving

 

Eh, it's better than the complaining you would've been hearing in 2-3 years about how there's only 8 years to go on his contract.  In a year or two this is largely forgotten.

[2ELIAS6]

Not to nitpick, but nothing in the articles there state anything about the Leafs organization not wanting to spend for him. Its opinions of a blogger that doesn't think he's worth $5M per. I don't think there's one fan that thinks Clarkson is worth that much. The Leafs aren't his only potential destination. The Red Wings are rumored to have interest as well, and both have cap space. Who knows who else may throw him an offer. He's going to be one of the most sought after guys this year because the market is so thin.

a "potential destination" could be any of the teams in the league.. not just the leafs and the red wings because there is "rumor" that they are interested in him.

[ghdi]

a "potential destination" could be any of the teams in the league.. not just the leafs and the red wings because there is "rumor" that they are interested in him.

 

Of course, but that's besides the point. You stated that "just read an article that toronto may not be willing to dish out the cashola for clarkson that everyone has been projecting" and that was not said.

[Derlique]

Eh, it's better than the complaining you would've been hearing in 2-3 years about how there's only 8 years to go on his contract. In a year or two this is largely forgotten.

God I hope you're right....