coldply123 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 If this team had won 4 shootouts, absolutely no one but loons like coldply would be talking about firing DeBoer. They might be unhappy with some of his roster choices - I certainly am - but I defy you to find a coach where the fans aren't upset. Several of the shootouts we've had to go to so far this year were directly because of piss-poor coaching and horrible line management. Try and deny that. Just try. You and I can do this back and forth all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpathianForest Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Several of the shootouts we've had to go to so far this year were directly because of piss-poor coaching and horrible line management. Try and deny that. Just try. You and I can do this back and forth all day long. He's got a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 All I'll say is this Plenty of Devils coaches have done better and still gotten canned. It is odd how Lou has stuck with Deboer when Robinson and Julien got fired for reasons most of us still don't understand. He did have the Cup run...but he's also likely going to miss the playoff consecutive years Bingo...then again Lou hasn't done ANYthing period lately. Other than roster machinations to avoid doing anything. It's funny how quickly everyone rushes to Pete's defense when you all wanted Julien fired by Thanksgiving. Pete as the coach isn't the issue per se but he sure as shooting is crap when it comes to developing players or lineup choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) If there's an issue with development, etc - that's on Lou to an extent, and I'd even say the assistant coaches. Talk about passing the buck. I don't think Lou's telling Pete to play Gelinas three minutes in a game, play Larsson twenty-five minutes a night as a rookie then scratch him the next year, go with eleven forwards or whatever other bizarre decisions he makes. Yes Larsson this year is on Lou to an extent for hoarding him in the minors but it's not like he was getting a fair shake with Pete for the most part the last two years anyway until Gelinas came up and Larsson started playing better with the guillotine removed. Same with Fayne for that matter. Funny how he played well in 2012 and the latter part of this year when he's finally assured of an everyday lineup spot but was crap when they were yo-yoing him in and out. Edited February 2, 2014 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William D'Aquila Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 He's a mediocre to poor coach. He's not even average. He's a good manager. That's it. He "manages". He doesn't coach however. His philosophy and system are pretty straightforward and mundane. Any coach can be given a bunch of elite forwards and excellent depth like we had in 2012 and run to the Cup (and Devils fans need to stop hiding from the fact that we were extremely luckier than usually needed to advance). He's bad at communicating adjustments and developing young talent and if discipline is an issue, that's entirely on the coach. That's such a load of nonsense you just posted and you need to learn why if you expect to ever understand anything at all about hockey from a team perspective. Well, thats a pretty stark indictment of our scouting/development, is it not? Guess who oversees that? Where is the accountability? He is anything but a poor coach in fact he is probably one the better coaches in the league. He makes in game adjustments and has put a system in place that keeps us in every game. His youth development hasn't been the best, but Josefson, Tedenby, and others haven not given him a reason to stay in the line up. Development needs to occur at the minor league level first and foremost. Its quite possible that a number of our rookies were rushed. The younger players that have thrived here Henrique and Fayne were given time to develop. I think everyone from management on down has done a terrific job this year considering the cards they were dealt. No Kovy, no Parise, no Clarkson, managing the decline of the franchises greatest player, and trading for Cory during the draft. A lot of you are too young to remember the middling Devils era pre Jacques its quite possible that we may have to live through a similar period again. But I wouldn't fret with the defense we have in the pipeline coupled with a re-signed Schneider the Devils will be an upper echelon team within 2 to 3 years if not sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefiestygoat Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 DeBoer's a decent coach, I like his style, I won't fault him for Lou's errors but what irks me is how vets have no accountability but young players, especially if their European, get crucified for minimal errors, or no errors at all. I'm sure he's well liked amongst vets but I would love to hear what Larsson, Josefson, and Loktionov would have to say about him in private. I get that a coach at this level isn't trying to develop players but can you honestly tell me that Larsson isn't an upgrade over half the D? That Loktionov can't bring more offense than Carter or Gionta? That Josefson isn't better than Gionta? My big problem right now is that Lou seems to have gone soft and is going through the motions at his age. Devils coaches that have done more have been let go in the past. The logjam of D hasn't been cleared in well over a year. The minor league/prospect system hasn't been strong for what seems like a decade. I know it's sacrilegious to call for his head, which I'm not necessarily doing, but I don't think getting some fresh blood into the front office/scouting department is going to be the worst thing in the world. It seems like the Devils organization is treading the waters of mediocrity. The cup run really seems like it was more luck than anything now. I don't expect anything out of this year's team so whatever happens, happens. I do hope that they get a new coach for next season though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Several of the shootouts we've had to go to so far this year were directly because of piss-poor coaching and horrible line management. Try and deny that. Just try. You and I can do this back and forth all day long. lol. yeah, that's what it was. no way that a low event team with good goaltending and bad offense should expect to go to a bunch of shootouts. Edited February 2, 2014 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 DeBoer's a decent coach, I like his style, I won't fault him for Lou's errors but what irks me is how vets have no accountability but young players, especially if their European, get crucified for minimal errors, or no errors at all. I'm sure he's well liked amongst vets but I would love to hear what Larsson, Josefson, and Loktionov would have to say about him in private. I get that a coach at this level isn't trying to develop players but can you honestly tell me that Larsson isn't an upgrade over half the D? That Loktionov can't bring more offense than Carter or Gionta? That Josefson isn't better than Gionta? My big problem right now is that Lou seems to have gone soft and is going through the motions at his age. Devils coaches that have done more have been let go in the past. The logjam of D hasn't been cleared in well over a year. The minor league/prospect system hasn't been strong for what seems like a decade. I know it's sacrilegious to call for his head, which I'm not necessarily doing, but I don't think getting some fresh blood into the front office/scouting department is going to be the worst thing in the world. It seems like the Devils organization is treading the waters of mediocrity. The cup run really seems like it was more luck than anything now. I don't expect anything out of this year's team so whatever happens, happens. I do hope that they get a new coach for next season though. Pete DeBoer has coached for 3 seasons. This is the longest anyone has coached the Devils since Lemaire from 94 to 98. Which is utterly insane for a franchise this successful - if anything Lou has been way too quick on the coaching firing trigger, mistaking PDO blips for serious downturns in play that need remedying with another coach. Either that or he's not particularly good at picking coaches, which suggests that he should stick with one who's had some success. I'm sure Loktionov, Josefson, and Larsson don't like DeBoer. I don't really think that's germane - what's more germane is do they deserve the treatment they've gotten from the coach, and I think in every case, yes, though Josefson is probably the worst case. - Larsson was not playing well at the end of 2011-12 and his benching was earned. In 2012-13, again, didn't play particularly well, and the team had too many defensemen, so out he goes in some games. Unfortunate consequence of having a healthy D corps. 2013-14, he was playing rotten at the beginning of the year and so he sat. He came back and played better and was no longer being scratched. It's not utter caprice. DeBoer's not responsible for his having been demoted to the AHL. - Josefson has played 97 games as a Devil for Pete Deboer. He has 3 goals and 11 assists. These are barely acceptable numbers from a 4th line center. It is unfortunate that the pucks bounced the way they did last year and that Josefson was sent down as a result, but he was given a very large role when he came back. I wouldn't say he struggled with it but he did not excel either. - Loktionov was the team's 3rd line center at the beginning of the year. He was given power play time when there were injuries. It's only recently that he has been sat - unfortunately after probably his best run of games, but that run didn't result in any goals for his line. Still, whether DeBoer changed Loktionov's responsibilities or he is not playing as well, he's not dogging the puck like he was last year. He's been basically a break even type player when you consider ZS% - his play in the defensive zone is not good, and hasn't really improved this year. You could see DeBoer's frustration with it in a recent game - Loktionov won't be an NHL player if he plays the D zone like he has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeCups Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 If this team had won 4 shootouts, absolutely no one but loons like coldply would be talking about firing DeBoer. They might be unhappy with some of his roster choices - I certainly am - but I defy you to find a coach where the fans aren't upset. After losing the first...I don't know? 8 games in the shootout; scoring 1 whopping goal total....start using some random guys like a Zid or Gionta...ANYONE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 After losing the first...I don't know? 8 games in the shootout; scoring 1 whopping goal total....start using some random guys like a Zid or Gionta...ANYONE He used Zidlicky last shootout and using 'random guys' is a horrible, horrible idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Using randoms isn't the worst idea ever, as long as they're not total plugs and goalies aren't familiar with them. I think our only SO goal this season qualifies as a random. Yeah, he's a scoring player, but not who you'd think you'd pick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaRay Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I commend him for trying something different. What is our record in Shootouts this season? I've fired many a worker in my day, and "well, I wasnt trained" is the number one excuse they claim for their poor performance. and thats EXACTLY what it is, AN EXCUSE. the devils run one of the tightest, disciplined systems in all of hockey, hell, all of sports, your telling me pete's not communicating with them??? That says more about your management, than it does the workers, if this is a constant problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaRay Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Well, thats a pretty stark indictment of our scouting/development, is it not? Guess who oversees that? Where is the accountability? I think Lou knows this. I don't think Stevens is ready to be a "coach". Granted he has had a lot of injuries. He isn't Larry Robinson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I have a real problem with the aversion to development and coaching of youth I see in this thread. This might have worked when you didn't have a salary cap and when players excelling in their ELCs (and also RFA) years were less crucial to a team's success. If you are a coach in the salary cap era and you're not prepared, able or willing to work and communicate with your young players then you have put your team in a disadvantage right away. Some players need to be taught, some need tough love and a coach has to be able to provide both. I understand that this is often left to assistant coaches, but again: you have to be dynamic in the way you coach different players. It wouldn't surprise me if the second half of 2011/2012 was the first time in his career Adam Larsson faced real adversity. To say "derp derp this is a team sport, players should get in line" is asinine. You coach individuals to play to their strengths so the team can perform better. I have minor complaints (lineups, line combinations, deployment) about DeBoer but this is a major one. I don't think he and his coaching staff are very good at working with young players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Using randoms isn't the worst idea ever, as long as they're not total plugs and goalies aren't familiar with them. I think our only SO goal this season qualifies as a random. Yeah, he's a scoring player, but not who you'd think you'd pick Random guys seem to be the only ones scoring in our 'practice' shootouts lol (Cam, Volch). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldply123 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 After losing the first...I don't know? 8 games in the shootout; scoring 1 whopping goal total....start using some random guys like a Zid or Gionta...ANYONE Uh oh. Triumph won't like you making a valid point! The King Quack of Stats knows all! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 I have a real problem with the aversion to development and coaching of youth I see in this thread. This might have worked when you didn't have a salary cap and when players excelling in their ELCs (and also RFA) years were less crucial to a team's success. If you are a coach in the salary cap era and you're not prepared, able or willing to work and communicate with your young players then you have put your team in a disadvantage right away. Some players need to be taught, some need tough love and a coach has to be able to provide both. I understand that this is often left to assistant coaches, but again: you have to be dynamic in the way you coach different players. It wouldn't surprise me if the second half of 2011/2012 was the first time in his career Adam Larsson faced real adversity. To say "derp derp this is a team sport, players should get in line" is asinine. You coach individuals to play to their strengths so the team can perform better. I have minor complaints (lineups, line combinations, deployment) about DeBoer but this is a major one. I don't think he and his coaching staff are very good at working with young players. You're presuming that because a player was drafted in the first round and/or pundits said they would be really good, means that it's just coaching that's slowing them down. It could be that Larsson, Josefson and Loktionov are not that good, or at least not as good as they were projected to be. And with Larsson, for all those that are upset that Marty has cost the Devils points, you could basically chalk up at least two or three awful turnovers in the defensive zone to Larsson every night. Maybe that'll will be worked out in his stay in Albany or over the next couple of seasons. But please let's not try and glamorize the past and pretend there's a Nikkas Lidstrom in him trying to get out if only DeBoer was a little gentler with his psyche. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpathianForest Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Larsson still is affected by the Simmonds hit. He's still afraid of contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 You're presuming that because a player was drafted in the first round and/or pundits said they would be really good, means that it's just coaching that's slowing them down. It could be that Larsson, Josefson and Loktionov are not that good, or at least not as good as they were projected to be. And with Larsson, for all those that are upset that Marty has cost the Devils points, you could basically chalk up at least two or three awful turnovers in the defensive zone to Larsson every night. Maybe that'll will be worked out in his stay in Albany or over the next couple of seasons. But please let's not try and glamorize the past and pretend there's a Nikkas Lidstrom in him trying to get out if only DeBoer was a little gentler with his psyche. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Nonsense. NJ has busts and players that are not good enough. Tedenby and Urbom are in those categories, Josefson and Larsson aren't. I don't know where Loktionov is, to be honest. I talked about the general philosophy of coaching and development. I don't see how you can misunderstand that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeControl Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) I commend him for trying something different. What is our record in Shootouts this season? That says more about your management, than it does the workers, if this is a constant problem. lol, Knew someone would come back with that simple retort, . never said it was a constant problem. but if you tell me you have a perfect hiring record I'll tell you your full of it point still stands, the claim that these players arent being coached up is nonsense. let lou can debo and take the reins!! I dare him! Edited February 2, 2014 by EdgeControl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Uh oh. Triumph won't like you making a valid point! The King Quack of Stats knows all! So instead of going with players who've proven themselves, try ANYTHING else! This is synecdochic with your larger point that ANYTHING works better than Lou and DeBoer, when we can see around the league that teams who try anything often fail at everything. max: Boucher scored a billion goals last year, this wasn't using Matt Hendricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Josefson and Loktionov have sucked all year. I have no problem with either of them being scratched or benched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldply123 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 So instead of going with players who've proven themselves, try ANYTHING else! This is synecdochic with your larger point that ANYTHING works better than Lou and DeBoer, when we can see around the league that teams who try anything often fail at everything. max: Boucher scored a billion goals last year, this wasn't using Matt Hendricks. I've never said "just anybody else" or "anything". Boy, you are rich. I mean really. Using big words and stats to try and crush any opposing opinion or dissatisfaction with the team. You just enjoy being a contrarian. I may be exceedingly negative and demanding, but I don't frankly care. You can call me loony all you want. The results speak for themselves and watching this team over a whole season, coaching is a major issue and has been intricately involved in the events leading to a number of losses. There's no denial of that by others on this board. Has Deboer been given a great hand to work with? Heck no. But guess what, there's a lot of other teams with bad hands who are doing better than us. We are failing in spectacular fashion on the shootouts and some of his shootout choices show little to no effort from a coaching perspective. I was at the Blue Jackets game several weeks ago and it was clear Deboer paid no attention to the lack of familiarity. The shootout is not as simple as people think it is (as someone who played hockey can tell you, and Jagr himself has alluded to this). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Eco Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Larsson still is affected by the Simmonds hit. He's still afraid of contact. Wasn't the big hit on Larsson by PK Subban? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog2020 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Wasn't the big hit on Larsson by PK Subban? Yes it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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