Muevelos Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 When Ryder goes missing he doesn't come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ELIAS6 Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 theyre both a lose lose situation just depends on the week and who's turn it is to suck more than the other. Unfourtunently were stuck one more year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ELIAS6 Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 How do you define value? Zubrus didn't have a great season but he isn't paid just to score goals, like Ryder and Brunner. ive gotten on zubrus a little bit for his lack of goal contribution but he definently brings a lot more then these other 2 bums i would choose zubs over both of ryder and brunner any day of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neb00rs Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 He was also healthy-scratched at times. Not all of his missed games were due to injury. I wonder is Brunner is one of those guys PDB basically tells Lou to trade if possible, that Brunner is simply a player that PDB can't work with. Re: potential with Brunner, again, he's not a 22 or 23-year-old kid. He's already 28. And what still sticks out to me is that he couldn't find a job until just before the start of the regular season. Guys do fall through the cracks from time to time, no question, and under the circumstances, I fully get why Lou rolled the dice on him, but his first season with the Devils almost seem the validate the teams that thought "Yeah, had a feeling he wouldn't do much. We didn't miss out on anything." The sooner we cut the guy the less painful it will be. After the last month of the season Id take Brunner over Ryder a million times over. Even disregarding the contract; Ryder looked slow and lazy. He has a wicked shot, that's about it. Reminds me of a Rolston (who hits the glass less, I suppose). But would you take Brunner? (see what I did there?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 How do you define value? Zubrus didn't have a great season but he isn't paid just to score goals, like Ryder and Brunner. And to add to your other comment... You're wrong. They're getting top-6 minutes and barely playing better than AHLers. I would rather Reid Boucher than Michael Ryder playing on a top line any day of the week. Ryder's incredibly useless unless he has a top notch center able to gift him some open looks. He isn't a very talented player, and he doesn't belong anywhere on this team. You want him to play the third line? Good luck having him play in a checking role. The dude is slower than Cam freakin Janssen. I'm as big of a Boucher supporter as there is but Boucher's not better than Ryder yet, and he may never reach Ryder's best. He doesn't need a top center to gift him looks, he just needs someone with speed on his line, someone who can get defenders out of position a little. The Devils didn't have that for Ryder for most of the 2nd half of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I'm as big of a Boucher supporter as there is but Boucher's not better than Ryder yet, and he may never reach Ryder's best. He doesn't need a top center to gift him looks, he just needs someone with speed on his line, someone who can get defenders out of position a little. The Devils didn't have that for Ryder for most of the 2nd half of the year. And the player creating the space with speed needs to be able to muck it up along the boards too. Brunner and Ryder playing together in a lot of games hurt both players since both players weak board play was exacerbated by the other player weak board play. Nobody could ever recover a puck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeControl Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Ryder got his shots and a bunch of chances. he was plain missing the net on a lot of shots in the second half. Id love to upgrade those positions but the truth is we cant. so they will be with us for one more year. and a bunch of us were all over zubrus. he hit a bad wall the 2nd half as well. finished out april well. and with thanks to jagr and travis he wound up in the plus territory for the year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldply123 Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Ryder got his shots and a bunch of chances. he was plain missing the net on a lot of shots in the second half. Id love to upgrade those positions but the truth is we cant. so they will be with us for one more year. and a bunch of us were all over zubrus. he hit a bad wall the 2nd half as well. finished out april well. and with thanks to jagr and travis he wound up in the plus territory for the year Because Jagr and Zajac had to carry him for a good portion. Zubrus has his qualities but he's got streaks where he struggles to fit in on a line. And Ryder can't miss on so many of his chances. He only does one thing well from a skill standpoint and if that isn't clicking he is a negative value player. Getting lots of shots isn't meaningless but when you need others to create those opportunities and get you space you need to create your own and Ryder isn't capable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zubie#8 Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) Have to give some credit to Zubrus, that Jagr line was at its best with him on the wing which was an important line for many wins. The problem is he needs to be in a bottom 6 role but that just shows how little depth we have. But he is still a reliable player who is great defensively and is good on the PK. Like I said before he needs to be a Madden Brylin type player in this stage in his career and not forced to play top 6 minutes. And for the record many of Ryder's shots were BS shots from long range on the rush with no chance at all. The guy is not good for this system. He cannot hang on to the puck to save his life. Yea he's good for 20 goals which we need but he can't generate goals for others and just drags his teammates down, the man has to be catered in order to succeed which is the opposite of what the system preaches. Edited April 17, 2014 by Zubie#8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Have to give some credit to Zubrus, that Jagr line was at its best with him on the wing The WOWY numbers tell the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsrule33 Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 The WOWY numbers tell the opposite. Without looking at the numbers, my eyes would say the same. Jagr's offense might have dried up, but I think his scoring chances and the line was much stronger when Ruutu was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Without looking at the numbers, my eyes would say the same. Jagr's offense might have dried up, but I think his scoring chances and the line was much stronger when Ruutu was there. I mean, it's not like he stunk it up with Zubrus. 57% Corsi with Zubrus, Jagr has 60% without him (633 and 577 mins of 5v5 ToI, respectively). Jagr is up to a 63% Corsi with Ruutu but that's 150 mins of play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeControl Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I mean, it's not like he stunk it up with Zubrus. 57% Corsi with Zubrus, Jagr has 60% without him (633 and 577 mins of 5v5 ToI, respectively). Jagr is up to a 63% Corsi with Ruutu but that's 150 mins of play. I saw that move as a wash. imo, ruutu was supposed to score a few more goals but that didn't materialize either. very interchangeable players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazer Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 brunner had a year long tryout, buh bye. soft on the puck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Eco Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I'm as big of a Boucher supporter as there is but Boucher's not better than Ryder yet, and he may never reach Ryder's best. He doesn't need a top center to gift him looks, he just needs someone with speed on his line, someone who can get defenders out of position a little. The Devils didn't have that for Ryder for most of the 2nd half of the year. Brunner and Ryder playing together in a lot of games hurt both players since both players weak board play was exacerbated by the other player weak board play. Nobody could ever recover a puck. Ryder got his shots and a bunch of chances. he was plain missing the net on a lot of shots in the second half. Id love to upgrade those positions but the truth is we cant. so they will be with us for one more year. and a bunch of us were all over zubrus. he hit a bad wall the 2nd half as well. finished out april well. and with thanks to jagr and travis he wound up in the plus territory for the year I agree with all 3 of these comments. I'm of the opinion that we only have Ryder for his shot. And it's a damn good shot. Ideally, we needed him for more, but we all knew what he was about before he put on a Devils jersey; I didn't really expect anything more. And I'll go one over and say I think he'll only do better next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Eco Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) I feel like we all complain about how inept our offense is, how inept "New Jersey Devils offense" is. But when a player doesn't play "New Jersey Devils hockey", he gets crucified. It's like we're all programmed to want more Giontas and Carters on the team no matter how much we crap on them. That kinda explains why so many Devils fans still didn't like Kovalchuk by the second half of our 2011-2012 season; you still heard boos and jeers when he'd touch the puck during a 2-3 game goalless drought. I feel like we're almost brainwashed to want the Giontas and Salvadors as the face of our Devils. Anything else (Kovys and Zidlickys of the game) is too edgy and not "safe". It's something I've noticed in a large group of our fanbase, where a lot of Devils fans just can't stand guys like Ryder, Zidlicky, or Kovalchuk (when he was here), yet these guys will be top 3, 4, or 5 in the points department at any given point in the season. We'll complain about how we don't score, we play too defensively, but then sh!t on Zidlicky's or Ryder's two-way game.... Doesn't make sense. If our team actually went out and got a talent like Evander Kane or Alexander Semin, he could score 30+ goals but our fanbase would still hate him. Edited April 17, 2014 by DJ Eco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneax Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Well the Zid stuff I'm 100percent with you, it is probably a similar situation to what gelinas MIGHT turn out to be (that might is on the offensive upside he's not 100percent proven). Guys like that are important and there are tons of guys that hate it. Kovy as well, his offensive upside for us was huge. There is a point at which the offense they bring can mitigate their downsides, which isn't the case for the other type of player you are talking about. With guys like ryder I can understand that constant hate, namely because its more about what standard of player this team is used to. It's not gionta type players that we are brainwashed into wanting, it's GOOD 2 way players. Ryder was not exactly lighting it up this year I think he had sub 20 goals. For that kind of production I would much rather bring in a guy that can do everything. Ryder can do 1 thing and he wasn't that spectacular at it. That's where I think a lot of the hate comes from. We as devils fans are just used to overall good players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Eco Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Well the Zid stuff I'm 100percent with you, it is probably a similar situation to what gelinas MIGHT turn out to be (that might is on the offensive upside he's not 100percent proven). Guys like that are important and there are tons of guys that hate it. Kovy as well, his offensive upside for us was huge. There is a point at which the offense they bring can mitigate their downsides, which isn't the case for the other type of player you are talking about. With guys like ryder I can understand that constant hate, namely because its more about what standard of player this team is used to. It's not gionta type players that we are brainwashed into wanting, it's GOOD 2 way players. Ryder was not exactly lighting it up this year I think he had sub 20 goals. For that kind of production I would much rather bring in a guy that can do everything. Ryder can do 1 thing and he wasn't that spectacular at it. That's where I think a lot of the hate comes from. We as devils fans are just used to overall good players. I'm with you there, I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I feel like we all complain about how inept our offense is, how inept "New Jersey Devils offense" is. But when a player doesn't play "New Jersey Devils hockey", he gets crucified. It's like we're all programmed to want more Giontas and Carters on the team no matter how much we crap on them. That kinda explains why so many Devils fans still didn't like Kovalchuk by the second half of our 2011-2012 season; you still heard boos and jeers when he'd touch the puck during a 2-3 game goalless drought. I feel like we're almost brainwashed to want the Giontas and Salvadors as the face of our Devils. Anything else (Kovys and Zidlickys of the game) is too edgy and not "safe". It's something I've noticed in a large group of our fanbase, where a lot of Devils fans just can't stand guys like Ryder, Zidlicky, or Kovalchuk (when he was here), yet these guys will be top 3, 4, or 5 in the points department at any given point in the season. We'll complain about how we don't score, we play too defensively, but then sh!t on Zidlicky's or Ryder's two-way game.... Doesn't make sense. If our team actually went out and got a talent like Evander Kane or Alexander Semin, he could score 30+ goals but our fanbase would still hate him. I completely agree with this and for devils fans the kool-aid is very very very strong in many many departments and lots of fans are brainwashed to like certain things and accept and defend them no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zubie#8 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Idk how you can compare Ryder to Zid and Kovy. When Zidlicky isn't scoring he helps on the power play, generates offense for others and is a play maker. When Kovy wasn't scoring he helped on the power play, PK, helped genrate offense for others and was a playmaker. When Ryder isn't scoring he contributes NOTHING. And goal scoring is the one thing we pay him for so that's why he hurts the team and can't be compared to the other two. If he isn't scoring then he just drags down his linemates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Eco Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) Idk how you can compare Ryder to Zid and Kovy. When Zidlicky isn't scoring he helps on the power play, generates offense for others and is a play maker. When Kovy wasn't scoring he helped on the power play, PK, helped genrate offense for others and was a playmaker. When Ryder isn't scoring he contributes NOTHING. And goal scoring is the one thing we pay him for so that's why he hurts the team and can't be compared to the other two. If he isn't scoring then he just drags down his linemates. I mentioned them together as part of the common thread that I've noticed that they've been crapped on by our fanbase pretty often (in the stands, on Facebook, and sometimes on here), despite all consistently being near the upper echelon of our points-leaders. That Ryder was streaky and doesn't have a great two-way game should come as a surprise to no one. There were maybe 3 or 4 games during his goalless drought that I thought he was particularly awful. Otherwise, he was getting off shots (which is his job) and in some cases playing better than some of the games he was scoring in. I remember one particular game right in the heat of his drought, where he had 4 glorious shots on goal; one hit the crossbar, others where the goalie stood on his head, etc... while the team as a whole was held to 15 shots and we were shutout. To put it all in perspective, Ryder's goals or points this year are close to or better than the following list of players: Tomas Tatar, Carl Hagelin, Brian Gionta, Ryan Callahan, RJ Umberger, Mike Ribeiro, Mika Zibanejad, Jiri Tlusty, Milan Michalek, Mason Raymond, Tomas Plekanec, Joffrey Lupul, Alexander Semin, Cam Atkinson, Matt Read, etc., etc., etc... All guys we'd drop our pants for Lou to get on our team. In many cases, some of the guys I listed are making 2, 3, even 4 million more than Ryder. I know you're gonna pick the odd 2 or 3 of that list and say "Oh, but they kill penalties too!" but my general point remains. People who expected more from the 33 year old Ryder had irrational expectations. The larger issues and holes in our roster only exacerbates Ryder's negatives, but otherwise I continue to think he was a good signing. It's the additional signings we DIDN'T MAKE that make him look like a bad signing. Edited April 21, 2014 by DJ Eco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Look, Ryder at 18 goals isn't doing enough to stay on an NHL team, because he doesn't do anything else at all. He doesn't help out your other players, he's not particularly good at passing, he can't generate offense for other players really. All of the guys you listed except maybe Ribeiro do more to help out a team in other ways. The Devils took away the best center for him, which was Loktionov, who could gain the zone with the puck and had the vision to find a guy like Ryder in traffic. Then they took away Henrique who doesn't really have that vision but still has speed enough to gain the zone. What they gave him was Dainius Zubrus or Stephen Gionta which will just not be good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeControl Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Ryder is on his 4th team in 5 years, its not just devils fans who hate on his game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sokar Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Look, Ryder at 18 goals isn't doing enough to stay on an NHL team, because he doesn't do anything else at all. He doesn't help out your other players, he's not particularly good at passing, he can't generate offense for other players really. All of the guys you listed except maybe Ribeiro do more to help out a team in other ways. The Devils took away the best center for him, which was Loktionov, who could gain the zone with the puck and had the vision to find a guy like Ryder in traffic. Then they took away Henrique who doesn't really have that vision but still has speed enough to gain the zone. What they gave him was Dainius Zubrus or Stephen Gionta which will just not be good enough. You think Lou might try and traded him in the off season, and could we get for him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Eco Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Ryder is on his 4th team in 5 years, its not just devils fans who hate on his game Trrruuuue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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