Landing Spots for Brodeur

[devilsrule33]

Perhaps a middle ground is a situation where he doesn't start off as a 1A, but would get a shot if the starter falters.  While there are fewer and fewer of them, there are still enough GMs that value clutchness and might want a guy like Marty who has had playoff success, as compared with goalies like Niemi who have a reputation of choking in the playoffs. 

 

Carolina might also fit the bill.  I could definitely see Ward being amnestied, and Khudobin is not firmly established enough to say he would otherwise be getting the starts no matter what. 

 

This where my Hasek comparison breaks down. Hasek went to Detroit after an excellent season with Ottawa (shortened by his injury at the Olympics that ended his season). He got a multi-year deal, and was good enough in the first season before having a poor 2nd year. He was brought in to start.

 

Brodeur is coming off multiple awful years. All GMs have to do is see past his GAA like actually watching game tape, and they'll know he shouldn't be the answer. If a team like San Jose thinks bringing in Brodeur as insurance for Niemi is a good option...well good luck. Even then, I don't think Brodeur wants to be an insurance policy. Niemi has played 75% of the Sharks regular season games over the last 4 years and has done well. Brodeur on the bench is not beneficial for either party.

[Triumph]

Perhaps a middle ground is a situation where he doesn't start off as a 1A, but would get a shot if the starter falters.  While there are fewer and fewer of them, there are still enough GMs that value clutchness and might want a guy like Marty who has had playoff success, as compared with goalies like Niemi who have a reputation of choking in the playoffs. 

 

Carolina might also fit the bill.  I could definitely see Ward being amnestied, and Khudobin is not firmly established enough to say he would otherwise be getting the starts no matter what. 

 

You seem to completely disregard the dollar factor in a compliance buyout.  A compliance buyout for Cam Ward will cost the Hurricanes $9 million over the next 4 years.  I don't think they are going to do that - there's talk they will try to move him, and I imagine picking up his salary, even if it's half, is a much better option for them than a compliance buyout. 

[Daniel]

You seem to completely disregard the dollar factor in a compliance buyout.  A compliance buyout for Cam Ward will cost the Hurricanes $9 million over the next 4 years.  I don't think they are going to do that - there's talk they will try to move him, and I imagine picking up his salary, even if it's half, is a much better option for them than a compliance buyout. 

 

Better than paying him $12.6 million over the next two years to be your backup when you can have someone that makes a lot less to make it still a net win overall.  I also don't know if Carolina has rich owners that are willing to eat the real dollars.  Obviously, some teams have shown a willingness to do that.

 

I also can't see anyone trading for Ward unless Garth Snow by some miracle still has a job when the Wang sells the team, and even if Carolina retains half of it.  No one wanted to kick in a few bucks of cap space for Marty for a few months and basically for a fourth round draft pick.  Ward might have actually been worse than Marty over the past two years, so I can't see anyone taking him for a $3.15 cap hit for the next two years. 

[Daniel]

This where my Hasek comparison breaks down. Hasek went to Detroit after an excellent season with Ottawa (shortened by his injury at the Olympics that ended his season). He got a multi-year deal, and was good enough in the first season before having a poor 2nd year. He was brought in to start.

 

Brodeur is coming off multiple awful years. All GMs have to do is see past his GAA like actually watching game tape, and they'll know he shouldn't be the answer. If a team like San Jose thinks bringing in Brodeur as insurance for Niemi is a good option...well good luck. Even then, I don't think Brodeur wants to be an insurance policy. Niemi has played 75% of the Sharks regular season games over the last 4 years and has done well. Brodeur on the bench is not beneficial for either party.

 

Yeah, San Jose management is too analytics driven (from what I've heard) and too smart to do something like that (I just tried to throw out an example of a team that has a goalie with a shaky playoff reputation). 

 

My sense is though is that, despite what he's saying publicly, he just enjoys being in the NHL, and the money is good, all things considered.  I think he'd rather not be a backup to a guy he has no chance of poaching starts from, but I also think that he has to realize that he's not going to get a shot with a competitive team.  None of them wanted him at the trade deadline, so I don't know how he could think they want him now. 

[Triumph]

Better than paying him $12.6 million over the next two years to be your backup when you can have someone that makes a lot less to make it still a net win overall.  I also don't know if Carolina has rich owners that are willing to eat the real dollars.  Obviously, some teams have shown a willingness to do that.

 

I also can't see anyone trading for Ward unless Garth Snow by some miracle still has a job when the Wang sells the team, and even if Carolina retains half of it.  No one wanted to kick in a few bucks of cap space for Marty for a few months and basically for a fourth round draft pick.  Ward might have actually been worse than Marty over the past two years, so I can't see anyone taking him for a $3.15 cap hit for the next two years. 

 

One:  I don't think the Devils were willing to trade Brodeur.  

 

Two:  Ward has a Stanley Cup ring and several years of being a solid goalie in the NHL.  

 

Three:  Yes, Ward hasn't been great lately, but he's been hurt - and $3M is basically the lowest salary you'll pay for a starting goalie in the NHL.

 

I think someone would pick him up, especially if it was in exchange for a player whose salary was also being picked up by the other team.

[Daniel]

One:  I don't think the Devils were willing to trade Brodeur.  

 

 

Sounded like interest from other teams was tepid at best.  Perhaps Lou asked for too much.  Hard to tell.

 

 

Two:  Ward has a Stanley Cup ring and several years of being a solid goalie in the NHL.  

 

Marty's got three of them, and is a first ballot Hall of Famer.  They both stink now, except Ward's younger.

 

 

Three:  Yes, Ward hasn't been great lately, but he's been hurt - and $3M is basically the lowest salary you'll pay for a starting goalie in the NHL.

 

 

But he shouldn't be a starting goalie, or the only advantage he has over Marty is in the age department, and Ward's not really a spring chicken either.

 

 

I think someone would pick him up, especially if it was in exchange for a player whose salary was also being picked up by the other team.

 

Just don't see why you'd take him at even a $3 million cap hit for two years, when you can have Marty for one year, and for maybe half the price with, perhaps with incentives.  Basically, either way you slice it, a team that has any interest in either of them is looking at a chance of catching lightning in a bottle.  (Unless it's a team that's looking to sell a few t-shirts or tank for McDavid).  Ward probably has a marginally better chance at being that guy, but he's also going to prove much more expensive than Marty. 

[Triumph]

A year ago you're telling me save percentage doesn't count because who knows if it transfers, now you're telling me that Cam Ward is worse or is at least not better than Brodeur because in exactly one season out of the last 4, he's posted a worse save percentage, and in 2 other seasons he posted a considerably better one?  And he's 30 years old and not 42?  Luck plays a large part in single season save percentages - I'm not ready to declare Ward done at 30, and neither should the rest of the NHL.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Triumph

[Daniel]

A year ago you're telling me save percentage doesn't count because who knows if it transfers, now you're telling me that Cam Ward is worse or is at least not better than Brodeur because in exactly one season out of the last 4, he's posted a worse save percentage, and in 2 other seasons he posted a considerably better one? And he's 30 years old and not 42? Luck plays a large part in single season save percentages - I'm not ready to declare Ward done at 30, and neither should the rest of the NHL.

I've come around to it, what can I say. Probably because we had a goalie that had a good one. My only point about Marty is that notwithstanding his save percentage he hasn't been a calamity, except until this year.

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[grcenter47]

if brodeur leaves and we sign schneider long term....... 

 

 

would we be looking to sign for one year a cheap backup during free agency (clemmensen, giguere or vokoun)

 

 

or calling up kinkaid?

[devilsrule33]

if brodeur leaves and we sign schneider long term....... 

 

 

would we be looking to sign for one year a cheap backup during free agency (clemmensen, giguere or vokoun)

 

 

or calling up kinkaid?

 

I think Lou looks for a proven NHL goalie over Kinkaid. Cory has never been a starter in an 82-game NHL season, and I think Lou wants someone who has NHL experience to play 20 or so games. Of course, I doubt Kinkaid could be much worse than Brodeur of last year..and definitely not worse than Hedberg of '13, but you could probably find better in free agency than Kinkaid.

Edited May 8, 2014 by devilsrule33

[sundstrom]

I've come around to it, what can I say. Probably because we had a goalie that had a good one. My only point about Marty is that notwithstanding his save percentage he hasn't been a calamity, except until this year.

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he was terrible two years ago also - yes, i know the offense was a disaster. but c'mon. you cannot be arguing that marty is about equal to cam ward.

[Daniel]

he was terrible two years ago also - yes, i know the offense was a disaster. but c'mon. you cannot be arguing that marty is about equal to cam ward.

All things equal of course not. Ward though is a very expensive bad goalie that's under contract for two more years. Marty is a worse goalie that will cost a lot less, that you can sign for one year, and might sell you a few extra t-shirts.

Let me put it this way, who on earth would want to touch Bryzgolav if you had to pay him $3 million plus for the next two years? I know that if that were the case at the trade deadline, Minnesota would have rather gone with Marty. Bryzgolav, as bad as he was in Philly, has been better over the past few years than Ward.

And really, Ward has been pretty overrated for his entire career. He's been to the playoffs twice. He's had three seasons where his save percentage was worse than what Marty's was this year, and it clearly looks like he's peaked, if save percentage is what you're going by.

Basically, if it weren't for that Cup run, he'd be thought of as about as useful as Hedeberg was in his first two years with the Devils. If Hedberg had an anchor of a contract no one would touch him.

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[Triumph]

All things equal of course not. Ward though is a very expensive bad goalie that's under contract for two more years. Marty is a worse goalie that will cost a lot less, that you can sign for one year, and might sell you a few extra t-shirts.

 

Merchandise money is pooled, so you get 1/30th of those extra t-shirts you sell.  You are concluding that Cam Ward is bad based on flimsy evidence.

 

 

 

Let me put it this way, who on earth would want to touch Bryzgolav if you had to pay him $3 million plus for the next two years? I know that if that were the case at the trade deadline, Minnesota would have rather gone with Marty. Bryzgolav, as bad as he was in Philly, has been better over the past few years than Ward.

 

No, he hasn't.  Ward has a .910 the last 3 years, Bryzgalov a .906.

 

 

And really, Ward has been pretty overrated for his entire career. He's been to the playoffs twice. He's had three seasons where his save percentage was worse than what Marty's was this year, and it clearly looks like he's peaked, if save percentage is what you're going by.

 

Ward struggled his first 3 years, but he put together 5 solid years after that.

 

 

Basically, if it weren't for that Cup run, he'd be thought of as about as useful as Hedeberg was in his first two years with the Devils. If Hedberg had an anchor of a contract no one would touch him.

 

That's utter insanity, because you restricted it to two years, two years when Hedberg posted a decent SV% as opposed to a bad one.  Hedberg's SV% is one of the worst of the era.  Ward's is not.  Among goalies with 200 games played since Lockout II, Ward ranks 26th out of 46 in SV%, and his SV% is .008 higher.  That doesn't sound like a lot, but Ward's faced over 13000 shots, so each point of SV% is worth 13 goals.

 

Edited May 8, 2014 by Triumph

[RizzMB30]

I just don't see where that will be.

 

I just don't see him landing anywhere where he even has a chance to be a 1A.  

Agreed

 

I think we all know Brodeur doesn't want to be a backup. He's not wired for it, and frankly someone with that good a career shouldn't have to be 42 and a back up in the league. I find it almost impossible that he could come back to 15-20 games with it clearly defined that he will not be the starter at all.

 

Brodeur is hoping for a 2008 Red Wings Hasek situation. where you have a very solid team that doesn't have a clear answer in nets. Hasek was 43 and he was pretty much done, but there was always hope for him and concern with Wings management with Osgood in nets. Basically, he's hoping to be given a shot to win the net.

 

That simply can not happen in New Jersey. Marty knows it too. He said as much in a bunch of quotes. Ego and competition and wanting to play took over (pretty much why he wanted to be traded), but since he cares so much about this franchise, he knows that what he wants and what the franchise needs don't align at all. They didn't align last year, and it will be catastrophic this year.

 

For Brodeur, it has to be an opportunity with another team, or his career is over. 

 

 

How can you possibly know how Marty is "wired"?  You aren't a personal acquaintance, are you, if you are you should totally get an autograph for me.  There are different ways to interpret these said quotes and you seemingly took every word Brodeur said as him being selfish, negative and whiny.  Have you considered that he just loves the game? I know its been said over and over against by color guys, media, etc. and the like.  Marty will likely be back as a backup, its that or retire.  Who is Marty going to contact when he tries to find another place to sign and only gets 1 or 2 other options that will ALSO be backup jobs?  The following is from Tom Gulitti

 

 

"But Brodeur has not ruled out coming back to the Devils next season as Cory Schneider's backup.  The question would not answer today whether the organization wants Brodeur back or has to move on fully committed to Schneider, who acquired with the ninth overall pick in last years draft to be the team's eventual No.1" - TG Apr 14.

On whether there is a magic number of games he’d have to be guaranteed to return to the Devils:

“There’s not. It’s not out of the question that the Devils will be in the running for me to come back, but I haven’t talked to Lou about it at all, (as far as) what he wants to do with backing up Schneids. Again, if I am ready mentally to do that job, I’m going to look for the Devils a little bit. But, right now, I’m keeping everything open and we’ll see. I’ll talk to him and see what he feels is best for the organization. It’s not about me anymore. I’m free. He’s not stuck with me anymore.”

On what it would be like to enter a season as the designated backup:

“It would be nice, wouldn’t it? Less pressure. But, look at the situation in Tampa with (Ben) Bishop going down (with a wrist injury) and other teams if their starter gets hurt, it happens, you know. When you go through an 82-game season, (there are) a lot of breaks and I think when you’re looking at the right decision – listen, if I sign somewhere as a backup it’s not going to be to just barely make the playoffs. It’s going to be a team that will contend for a Stanley Cup.” - TG Apr 13.

http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/fireice/comments/emotional_day_for_martin_brodeur_as_he_plays_potentially_his_final_game_as_a_devil/#sthash.GmduzotU.dpuf

 

The bolded is what stood out to me the most when I read this TG post.  I personally believe that he may not be mentally ready to play backup, BUT the underlying fact is that he likely won't find a job elsewhere, and likely will not start.  He also states, "It's not about me anymore." I don't see that as selfish.  The 3rd and final question and quote is simply stating that he longs to keep playing and competing for a Cup.  The way I see it is that if he wants to continue to keep playing, he has to swallow his "pride", or retire.

 

Perhaps a middle ground is a situation where he doesn't start off as a 1A, but would get a shot if the starter falters.  While there are fewer and fewer of them, there are still enough GMs that value clutchness and might want a guy like Marty who has had playoff success, as compared with goalies like Niemi who have a reputation of choking in the playoffs. 

 

Carolina might also fit the bill.  I could definitely see Ward being amnestied, and Khudobin is not firmly established enough to say he would otherwise be getting the starts no matter what. 

I still believe that Ward is still/was a top tier(a stretch maybe, I know) goalie on a piss-poor team.  He's given Carolina fits because of injuries and such, but that's the only reason I'd move Ward is once Khudobin HAS established himself, which could be likely because he looked really good towards the end of this season. 

Edited May 9, 2014 by RizzMB30

[Daniel]

Merchandise money is pooled, so you get 1/30th of those extra t-shirts you sell. You are concluding that Cam Ward is bad based on flimsy evidence.

At

No, he hasn't. Ward has a .910 the last 3 years, Bryzgalov a .906.

Ward struggled his first 3 years, but he put together 5 solid years after that.

That's utter insanity, because you restricted it to two years, two years when Hedberg posted a decent SV% as opposed to a bad one. Hedberg's SV% is one of the worst of the era. Ward's is not. Among goalies with 200 games played since Lockout II, Ward ranks 26th out of 46 in SV%, and his SV% is .008 higher. That doesn't sound like a lot, but Ward's faced over 13000 shots, so each point of SV% is worth 13 goals.

So that .004 is worth the money you have to pay Ward over Bryzgolov?

Ward's save percentage has declined in three straight years. It was terrible this year (worse than Marty's) and was not great shakes the year before, certainly well below league average. He's a $6.5 million goalie that lost his starting job. Hedbergs save percentage in his first two years with the Devils was better than Ward's his past two years. Three years ago, or the basically a tie for the second best save percentage year Ward ever had, he was slightly better than Hedberg in 2010-2011.

Ward blows. So does Marty. Marty is going to cost you a lot less. You're ignoring that.

Edit: I meant essentially a tie for second best save percentage of his career.

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Edited May 9, 2014 by Daniel

[RizzMB30]

Ward blows. So does Marty. Marty is going to cost you a lot less. You're ignoring that.

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He's not suggesting acquiring Ward or anything, we have a starter already.  You're ignoring that fact the Ward has been behind a team that has been consistently bad for the past 3 or 4 years, probably more.  On top of that, it's extremely difficult for a goalie to get into a good rhythm when he is consistently injured.  Not saying I'd have total faith in Ward as a starter because he hasn't been very good when he has played, but I don't think he's done. 

Edited May 9, 2014 by RizzMB30

[devilsrule33]

Agreed

 

 

 

How can you possibly know how Marty is "wired"?  You aren't a personal acquaintance, are you, if you are you should totally get an autograph for me.  There are different ways to interpret these said quotes and you seemingly took every word Brodeur said as him being selfish, negative and whiny.  Have you considered that he just loves the game? I know its been said over and over against by color guys, media, etc. and the like.  Marty will likely be back as a backup, its that or retire.  Who is Marty going to contact when he tries to find another place to sign and only gets 1 or 2 other options that will ALSO be backup jobs?  The following is from Tom Gulitti

 

The bolded is what stood out to me the most when I read this TG post.  I personally believe that he may not be mentally ready to play backup, BUT the underlying fact is that he likely won't find a job elsewhere, and likely will not start.  He also states, "It's not about me anymore." I don't see that as selfish.  The 3rd and final question and quote is simply stating that he longs to keep playing and competing for a Cup.  The way I see it is that if he wants to continue to keep playing, he has to swallow his "pride", or retire.

 

I still believe that Ward is still/was a top tier(a stretch maybe, I know) goalie on a piss-poor team.  He's given Carolina fits because of injuries and such, but that's the only reason I'd move Ward is once Khudobin HAS established himself, which could be likely because he looked really good towards the end of this season. 

 

Because Brodeur talks to the media constantly. Who here would argue that he isn't wired that way? I don't have time to go through all the quotes, but off the top of my head, Brodeur wanted to get traded when he sat on the bench 10 or so games because that isn't him. He said he doesn't play hockey to sit on the bench. He also said  that he doesn't want to play less than he did this year. There's enough out there to know how he is wired.

 

If Brodeur comes back in a strictly backup role...he's going to really have to talk himself into doing it.

 

I said before there is nothing wrong with him being wired that way, though.

[Daniel]

He's not suggesting acquiring Ward or anything, we have a starter already. You're ignoring that fact the Ward has been behind a team that has been consistently bad for the past 3 or 4 years, probably more. On top of that, it's extremely difficult for a goalie to get into a good rhythm when he is consistently injured. Not saying I'd have total faith in Ward as a starter because he hasn't been very good when he has played, but I don't think he's done.

I'm not talking about the Devils getting Ward, and I don't believe Tri is either. That would be insane. I suggested the possibilty that Brodeur as a possibility for Carolina if they amnesty Ward, or that he's a better option than Ward for some other team that would be looking for someone that can compete for a bigger role than a straight backup. The difference between the two is price.

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[Triumph]

I'm not talking about the Devils getting Ward, and I don't believe Tri is either. That would be insane. I suggested the possibilty that Brodeur as a possibility for Carolina if they amnesty Ward, or that he's a better option than Ward for some other team that would be looking for someone that can compete for a bigger role than a straight backup. The difference between the two is price.

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No, the difference between the two is Price - the difference between Ward and Brodeur is probably the same as Ward and Carey Price, because not only is Brodeur 42, he's been bad the last 4 years.  Ward is 30.  Bryzgalov will be 34 in a month and everyone thinks he's nuts.  It's the purest sophistry to argue that Ward is equal to Brodeur - that's not likely.  It may be the case - Ward may be through - but I'm not betting on someone of his caliber being done at 30.

[Daniel]

No, the difference between the two is Price - the difference between Ward and Brodeur is probably the same as Ward and Carey Price, because not only is Brodeur 42, he's been bad the last 4 years. Ward is 30. Bryzgalov will be 34 in a month and everyone thinks he's nuts. It's the purest sophistry to argue that Ward is equal to Brodeur - that's not likely. It may be the case - Ward may be through - but I'm not betting on someone of his caliber being done at 30.

What caliber? A 30 year old goalie, that has a contract with an AAV that's comparable to Tuka Rask, with injury problems, and a career below average save percnetage, which is declining and who hasn't really won a ton either.

Again, if not for that Stanley Cup run, we wouldn't be talking about him as much more than a borderline starter. Want another guy who's been better than him.. Evgeni Nabakov.

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[RizzMB30]

Because Brodeur talks to the media constantly. Who here would argue that he isn't wired that way? I don't have time to go through all the quotes, but off the top of my head, Brodeur wanted to get traded when he sat on the bench 10 or so games because that isn't him. He said he doesn't play hockey to sit on the bench. He also said  that he doesn't want to play less than he did this year. There's enough out there to know how he is wired.

 

If Brodeur comes back in a strictly backup role...he's going to really have to talk himself into doing it.

 

I said before there is nothing wrong with him being wired that way, though.

That's a normal hockey player quote.  It's not being bitchy or whiny necessarily.  How many hockey players have you heard say, "Oh yeah, riding the bench is the best part of the sport!"  Then think about being a goalie and having to sit out and watch an entire game and be the fvcking "door guy".  Like I said, it's backup or retire for Brodeur.  Obviously he's going to try to go somewhere where he can get more games, and he might, but if I'm him I'm not going to hold my breath.  I'm arguing that he isn't necessarily "wired" in any way.  He's just a pro athlete who loves his sport, and still does.  I think I understand what you mean when he's not wired that way, which I can agree with, but he's going to have to get over it if he still wants to play at all.  

I'm wondering if Marty would pull a Chelios and continue to play on minor teams if he still wants to play that badly.  That is unlikely though.

[RowdyFan42]

I'm wondering if Marty would pull a Chelios and continue to play on minor teams if he still wants to play that badly.  That is unlikely though.

I was going to suggest that myself, but I thought I might be, you know, beaten with sticks.  

 

I was specifically thinking of Albany (of course), but even if Marty was willing, I don't think there's room for him in the system.

 

And it depends on his motivations.  If he merely wants to keep playing, maybe he'd consider going to the minors somewhere.  If he's still shooting for 700 NHL wins, he'll choose the path that gets him there the fastest.

[Devils Pride 26]

If Lou wasn't such an idiot, he would have traded two first round picks and Brodeur for PK Subban. It worked in NHL 14 so...

[2ELIAS6]

I was going to suggest that myself, but I thought I might be, you know, beaten with sticks.  

 

I was specifically thinking of Albany (of course), but even if Marty was willing, I don't think there's room for him in the system.

 

And it depends on his motivations.  If he merely wants to keep playing, maybe he'd consider going to the minors somewhere.  If he's still shooting for 700 NHL wins, he'll choose the path that gets him there the fastest.

There is NO way he goes to play in the minors are you seriously kidding right now?.. in his mind he still believes he is a number one.. he knows hes the best to have ever played the game.. why would you ever think he would play in the minors he would just straight up retire.

[thecoffeecake]

Expansion Nordiques in 2016. Just wait.