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2014-2015 Lineup Thread


devilsrule33
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Since last years was so popular....Once again a thread to discuss practice lines, game-day lineups, scratches, potential call-ups, waivers, etc. Basically a thread to bitch. 

 

To start it off:

 

Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice  1m

Devs' lines today: Zubrus-Zajac-Jagr; Cammalleri-Elias-Havlat; Clowe-Henrique-Ryder; Brunner-Gionta-Tootoo; Ruutu-Gomez-Josefson.

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Gelinas was a mess in the game on Saturday.  Good call to move him out and have Adam give it a go.  Wish Salvador would come out too for Harrold but we all know that ain't happening.

 

Surprised about Ruutu coming out instead of Tootoo.  I would much rather see a 4th line of Ruutu-Josefson-Brunner.

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Since last years was so popular....Once again a thread to discuss practice lines, game-day lineups, scratches, potential call-ups, waivers, etc. Basically a thread to bitch. 

 

To start it off:

 

Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice  1m

Devs' lines today: Zubrus-Zajac-Jagr; Cammalleri-Elias-Havlat; Clowe-Henrique-Ryder; Brunner-Gionta-Tootoo; Ruutu-Gomez-Josefson.

 

I didn't watch Saturday's game, so don't know if there's a specific reason for it, but interesting that Ruutu is on the bench while Tootoo is not.  (I understand Brunner played well though). 

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Ruutu out but Tootoo still in is one of head-scratchiest moves I've seen. It's just practice, so they might want a look at how Brunner could play with Gio and Tootoo.

 

It continues to become a real problem is they are rotating forwards that isn't Tootoo. He was a minor league last year. He made the team on a tryout, and he has been. absolute garbage in 6 games. If someone goes out, it has to be him.

Edited by devilsrule33
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Ruutu out but Tootoo still in is one of head-scratchiest moves I've seen. It's just practice, so they might want a look at how Brunner could play with Gio and Tootoo.

It continues to become a real problem is they are rotating forwards that isn't Tootoo. He was a minor league last year. He made the team on a tryout, and he has been. absolute garbage in 6 games. If someone goes out, it has to be him.

we know Pete likes his energy guys, especially against division opponents and double especially against the rags. Not saying it's right but I think he wants tootoo there in case someone needs to drop the gloves.
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I thought about posting something that asks whether Salvador was really that bad, especially to deserve basically getting blamed for everything that goes wrong.  Then I came across this, which explains a lot.  While I'm having trouble posting the link to the tweet, and the image that goes with it, I'll sum it up and say that he's not just a below average but serviceable defenseman on a good defensive team, as of now, he's actually the worst defenseman on the team, and by a very wide margin, and that bad things generally happen when he's on the ice.  While you can look past that stuff when it comes to someone like Stephen Gionta (also very fancy stat bad) because he's a fourth liner, and he's theoretically good on the penalty kill, this is unacceptable for a defenseman that you're giving 18+ or more minutes a game to.  I guess this is ultimately the fault of whoever made the final decision to give him the "C."  DeBoer had no issues benching a better defenseman that made more money in Volchenkov (I don't believe coaches when they tell you that they don't take salary into account when making roster decisions).  I think it's a pretty safe bet that Salvador would be getting the same treatment now or even last season, but for that stupid letter on his chest. 

 

I've mentioned it before, but I really wish we had a beat writer that not only looks at, and understands this stuff, but has that a$$hole mentality that Larry Brooks has, that would get in DeBoer's and Lou's face and ask something very direct like:  "About three times as many shot attempts go on your own goal as on the other team's goal when this guy is on the ice.  Have you looked at this, and if so, what are your conclusions about it." 

 

I will be the 1st to admit, I have no idea how these #fancystats work, but I do know how to sort. 3 terrible players.

 

 

UPDATE: Here's a follow-up tweet that is better for viewing, and explains more:

 

 

Vishal Hussain @vishal_hussain 23m23 minutes ago

10 worst Fenwick rei % min 5 GP: Gionta, Tootoo, Salvador, Burish, Kopecky, Seidenberg, Talbot, MacDonald, Eakin, Desjardins.

 

It's ok to be skeptical of the fancy stats.  I still am when it comes to certain players that you can look at and know are awesome (like Kovalchuk) and most of the time, context is necessary.  But something this out of whack should make an impression even in the most stubborn people.  Or, if I were the coach of the other team, I'd be chomping at the bit to get my best players on the ice when Sal is out there, AND I'd have plenty of opportunities to do it, unlike Gionta or Tootoo.

Edited by Daniel
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I thought about posting something that asks whether Salvador was really that bad, especially to deserve basically getting blamed for everything that goes wrong.  Then I came across this, which explains a lot.  While I'm having trouble posting the link to the tweet, and the image that goes with it, I'll sum it up and say that he's not just a below average but serviceable defenseman on a good defensive team, as of now, he's actually the worst defenseman on the team, and by a very wide margin, and that bad things generally happen when he's on the ice.  While you can look past that stuff when it comes to someone like Stephen Gionta (also very fancy stat bad) because he's a fourth liner, and he's theoretically good on the penalty kill, this is unacceptable for a defenseman that you're giving 18+ or more minutes a game to.  I guess this is ultimately the fault of whoever made the final decision to give him the "C."  DeBoer had no issues benching a better defenseman that made more money in Volchenkov (I don't believe coaches when they tell you that they don't take salary into account when making roster decisions).  I think it's a pretty safe bet that Salvador would be getting the same treatment now or even last season, but for that stupid letter on his chest. 

 

I've mentioned it before, but I really wish we had a beat writer that not only looks at, and understands this stuff, but has that a$$hole mentality that Larry Brooks has, that would get in DeBoer's and Lou's face and ask something very direct like:  "About three times as many shot attempts go on your own goal as on the other team's goal when this guy is on the ice.  Have you looked at this, and if so, what are your conclusions about it." 

 

I will be the 1st to admit, I have no idea how these #fancystats work, but I do know how to sort. 3 terrible players.

 

I don't blame these guys. A guy like TG knows what Deboer's answers will be if he asks about Salvador. He's heard enough about what TG thinks of Salvador, and he's also been around the beat long enough to know that Pete isn't going to throw his captain under the bus in any way. A lot of the beat guys are big fans of Salvador anyway, so there is that, too.

 

The Devils have an advanced stats department. He reports to Lou. Hopefully in some way Deboer sees these numbers, so at the very least it gets him thinking that his preconceived notions about players and situations start to change ever so slightly.

Edited by devilsrule33
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I don't blame these guys. A guy like TG knows what Deboer's answers will be if he asks about Salvador. He's heard enough about what TG thinks of Salvador, and he's also been around the beat long enough to know that Pete isn't going to throw his captain under the bus in any way. A lot of the beat guys are big fans of Salvador anyway, so there is that, too.

 

The Devils have an advanced stats department. He reports to Lou. Hopefully in some way Deboer sees these numbers, so at the very least it gets him thinking that his preconceived notions about players and situations start to change ever so slightly.

 

I don't recall TG being that direct about anything.  At most, he's asked why Larsson isn't in the lineup, and doesn't take the second step, which would be to ask that in light of the what the stats that you hired someone to analyze are telling you, why do you insist on making these two particular players (Gionta and Sal) untouchable.  Maybe PDB just gives a lame response like "we value leadership, grit, toughness", etc., but at least it forces him to make some kind of explanation. 

 

Yes, ultimately we're talking about something trivial like sports.  But a beat writer's job is ultimately to tell the fans why certain decisions are being made.  We can all watch the games or read a stat sheet and see what's taking place on the ice.  Here, you have one defenseman that's doing really poorly relative to everyone else, yet gets a lot of icetime.  I don't think it's to much too ask for some kind of explanation.  Who knows, we might even get a palatable response.

Edited by Daniel
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I don't recall TG being that direct about anything.  At most, he's asked why Larsson isn't in the lineup, and doesn't take the second step, which would be to ask that in light of the what the stats that you hired someone to analyze are telling you, why do you insist on making these two particular players (Gionta and Sal) untouchable.  Maybe PDB just gives a lame response like "we value leadership, grit, toughness", etc., but at least it forces him to make some kind of explanation. 

 

Yes, ultimately we're talking about something trivial like sports.  But a beat writer's job is ultimately to tell the fans why certain decisions are being made.  We can all watch the games or read a stat sheet and see what's taking place on the ice.  Here, you have one defenseman that's doing really poorly relative to everyone else, yet gets a lot of icetime.  I don't think it's to much too ask for some kind of explanation.  Who knows, we might even get a palatable response.

 

It hasn't been direct. It won't be direct. These guys go in the locker rooms every day talking to the players. They go to the captain quite a bit for quotes. There's one thing to ask why a player isn't in the lineup. It's another thing to name a certain player and ask why he is in the lineup. 

 

You just hit the nail on the head. It is just sports. In the end, does TG want to piss off the captain, piss off the coach (and he will piss off the coach, maybe so much that he'll have trouble getting a good answer for the rest of the year) and make his job that much more difficult? 

 

That's just if TG has the knowledge to ask that question. It's his job to possibly extract interesting answers from Deboer. He knows what Deboer is going to say in the end. Why phrase it in such a way that pisses everyone off?

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It hasn't been direct. It won't be direct. These guys go in the locker rooms every day talking to the players. They go to the captain quite a bit for quotes. There's one thing to ask why a player isn't in the lineup. It's another thing to name a certain player and ask why he is in the lineup. 

 

You just hit the nail on the head. It is just sports. In the end, does TG want to piss off the captain, piss off the coach (and he will piss off the coach, maybe so much that he'll have trouble getting a good answer for the rest of the year) and make his job that much more difficult? 

 

That's just if TG has the knowledge to ask that question. It's his job to possibly extract interesting answers from Deboer. He knows what Deboer is going to say in the end. Why phrase it in such a way that pisses everyone off?

 

This is true I suppose.  And I guess you can't expect this kind of stuff from Chere who has a long enough tenure to have that "I don't give a crap who I piss off" attitude.  Or, perhaps we might get more insightful questions when the team goes on an extended losing streak, and his play sticks out to even the most casual observer.  Or even better, the twitter verse can keep harping on it until someone with some level of influence takes notice.  That's probably a bridge too far though. 

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Sorry Daniel but that tweet is garbage - the guy is using all situation stats, because war-on-ice inexplicably defaults to all situations.  Here are the real numbers:  http://war-on-ice.com/playertable.html?mansit=2&scoresit=1&homeawaysit=1&shotattsit=1&names=&team=N.J&pos=1&xaxis=1&yaxis=14&caxis=6&saxis=4&panel=&usedaterange=0&start0=20142015&end0=20142015&start1=2014-10-01&end1=2014-10-20&splitseasons=0 - which is of course not great but is not the dire situation that that guy made it out to be.

 

The samples are so small at the beginning of the season and the 4th line has taken 6 penalties - I bet some of their territorial issues are related to the fact that 6 times already when they touch the puck their shift ends.  I'm not prepared to make conclusions about anyone until 20 games have gone by, though I do think both Gelinas and Salvador are struggling mightily.

Edited by Triumph
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Sorry Daniel but that tweet is garbage - the guy is using all situation stats, because war-on-ice inexplicably defaults to all situations. Here are the real numbers: http://war-on-ice.com/playertable.html?mansit=2&scoresit=1&homeawaysit=1&shotattsit=1&names=&team=N.J&pos=1&xaxis=1&yaxis=14&caxis=6&saxis=4&panel=&usedaterange=0&start0=20142015&end0=20142015&start1=2014-10-01&end1=2014-10-20&splitseasons=0 - which is of course not great but is not the dire situation that that guy made it out to be.

The samples are so small at the beginning of the season and the 4th line has taken 6 penalties - I bet some of their territorial issues are related to the fact that 6 times already when they touch the puck their shift ends. I'm not prepared to make conclusions about anyone until 20 games have gone by, though I do think both Gelinas and Salvador are struggling mightily.

Fair enough, although I'll just say that the numbers are so out of whack, that it's not nothing. I also don't see a huge anomaly like someone that we know is good like Andy Greene having close to the same horrendousness.

And yeah, right now I wouldn't rake PDB for not sitting him or Lou for giving Sal the "C" over the coals with this sample size. And, I'm not the Larsson uber alles type. But, you have an untouchable player who could prove to be really, really bad as more and more games are played. If that player's name was Mark Fayne, Anton Volchenkov, or perhaps even Marek Zidlicky, Larsson or anyone else for that matter would be playing instead of him.

At least with Marty, he actually did earn the benefit of the doubt for his entire body of work, and he got lucky enough that his playing time wasn't an enormous calamity in the short term or long term. All Salvador has to have "earned" his status, is a letter on his jersey and a surprisingly effective playoff performance two years ago. I suppose I get it, it doesn't mean I have to like it though.

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Fair enough, although I'll just say that the numbers are so out of whack, that it's not nothing. I also don't see a huge anomaly like someone that we know is good like Andy Greene having close to the same horrendousness.

And yeah, right now I wouldn't rake PDB for not sitting him or Lou for giving Sal the "C" over the coals with this sample size. And, I'm not the Larsson uber alles type. But, you have an untouchable player who could prove to be really, really bad as more and more games are played. If that player's name was Mark Fayne, Anton Volchenkov, or perhaps even Marek Zidlicky, Larsson or anyone else for that matter would be playing instead of him.

At least with Marty, he actually did earn the benefit of the doubt for his entire body of work, and he got lucky enough that his playing time wasn't an enormous calamity in the short term or long term. All Salvador has to have "earned" his status, is a letter on his jersey and a surprisingly effective playoff performance two years ago. I suppose I get it, it doesn't mean I have to like it though.

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No he didn't - the Devils gave Hedberg an insane 2 year deal after 2012, so as to provide Brodeur with absolutely zero competition.  So yes, when Hedberg and the offense sunk the Devils' season in 2013, you can say oh Brodeur wasn't the problem, he was just terrible instead of being season-ruiningly bad.  And of course you consider to pretend that the Devils weren't hurt by playing Brodeur an insane number of games last year.  

 

If Salvador continues to play this poor they will notice.  It won't happen in 10 games, but it will happen by the All-Star Break.  The Devils cut Ken Daneyko's time severely by the end, they sent McGillis and Malakhov packing, they demoted Matvichuk, they bought out Colin White, and they bought out Volchenkov.  I don't believe that they've lost the ability to evaluate defense - they are just wishcasting at this point that Salvador will provide them with what they need.  I think ultimately what they will want is for Salvador to be a 16-18 minute a game guy.

Edited by Triumph
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No he didn't - the Devils gave Hedberg an insane 2 year deal after 2012, so as to provide Brodeur with absolutely zero competition. So yes, when Hedberg and the offense sunk the Devils' season in 2013, you can say oh Brodeur wasn't the problem, he was just terrible instead of being season-ruiningly bad. And of course you consider to pretend that the Devils weren't hurt by playing Brodeur an insane number of games last year.

If Salvador continues to play this poor they will notice. It won't happen in 10 games, but it will happen by the All-Star Break. The Devils cut Ken Daneyko's time severely by the end, they sent McGillis and Malakhov packing, they demoted Matvichuk, they bought out Colin White, and they bought out Volchenkov. I don't believe that they've lost the ability to evaluate defense - they are just wishcasting at this point that Salvador will provide them with what they need. I think ultimately what they will want is for Salvador to be a 16-18 minute a game guy.

The point with Marty, is that he was the all-time winningest goalie, holds the shutout record, and won three Cups, among many other things. He got a two year deal after going to the SCF, which is a bigger accomplishment for a goalie than a second or third pairing defenseman. Last year, he won more games than he lost, and he got fewer starts than the other guy.

Salvador, at his best, was an ok defenseman. There was a player that got bought out that was better than him, and a defenseman that's probably better than him that is sitting on the bench, and another defenseman in Gelinas that, for his faults, at least has a unique and useful skill set. If DeBoer had zero issue sitting Fayne or Volchenkov last year, if he was being honest, he would say the only reason Salvador doesn't get the same treatment is because he's the captain. And while you're saying his minutes will go down, that's a day late and a dollar short.

Again though, if there's better information that says he hasn't been that bad yet, fine.

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If you're referring to Volchenkov, thing is the staff NEVER believed he was better than Salvador, just look at the TOI/roles they played for Pete while both were here.

Sal was also playing ahead of Fayne for a certain stretch. The point is that if Sal didn't have the "C" they wouldn't perceive him as any better than Volchenkov, and probably worse.

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