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GDT - Devils @ Winnipeg, 11/18/14


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DeBoer gets about 5 strikes and this was strike 2.  You can't win playing how they did last night - the structure just wasn't there.  Winnipeg is a tough matchup for this team - they can be forced into mistakes with speed, which NJ doesn't have much of that, but the Cammalleri-Zajac-Jagr line was a disaster on breakouts and in the neutral zone.  Zubrus-Gionta-Bernier got less than nothing going - time for Josefson to come back in somewhere.  And of course Brunner and Ryder were Brunner and Ryder.  

 

One of the things Lou has failed to notice with the creeping age of this team is that they just have a bunch of penalty factories on the club now - Jagr, Zubrus, and Zidlicky all take tons of penalties (Tootoo as well), and they don't have anyone that draws penalties with much consistency besides Tootoo and Ruutu, who have both had diminished roles this season.

 

You need speed against Winnipeg which to me meant that taking Josefson out of the lineup was a mistake.

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They took him out for either Henrique or Brunner, depending on how you want to look at it - I don't think they lost speed there.

if henrique and JJ raced around the rink once , josefson might lap him Tri. adam is anything but a speed demon..l.but he has good hockey sense and is usually where he needs to be

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Different voice (aka Deboer getting fired) won't necessarily spark up this group of old stags.  It could have an immediate "honeymoon effect," but over the long term it won't make a difference.

 

Complacency seems to be very evident when I watch this team.  They aren't miserably bad, but they aren't remarkably good either.   They're just "ehhhh"...

 

Scratching players like YaYo and Tootoo don't make much sense, and that is what needs to be addressed via a coaching change.

 

Keeping players like Zidlicky / Ryder / Brunner / Zajac / Elias / Zubrus etc. accountable is what a coaching change needs to address.  However, even if you get a guy like Tortorella in there, who rides his players hard, you think a 38-year old Elias, a 42 year old Jagr, and a soon-to-be free agent Zidlicky are gonna march to the beat of his drum?

 

It is a big problem Lou faces.  Because a "cycle change" is what the Devils need.  Coach and players, and that isn't easy.

 

I think you start with the coach, get the GM to buy into a "wiping the slate," with the new coach, and put all the cards on the table (analyzing the needs one player at a time, and have NO sacred cows) and see what happens...

 

We're in for a bubble season at best, with the most exciting element of this season being how this team reorganizes for the next 5 years.  We aren't making the playoffs and we are not winning the SC, so don't dream too much guys...

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I feel this is too talented a team to not make the playoffs. The structure and system is not there, though. they dont take enough shots and their breakouts have been poor lately. They dont adapt tactically at all during games. DeBoer has to go. This is on the coaches more than the players.

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Would like to see Josefson centering the second line and Ruutu centering the third for the next game. Increased minutes and responsibilities for two hard working, well deserving players. Bring up Matteau and sit Brunner or Ryder. Play Larsson more.

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I feel this is too talented a team to not make the playoffs. The structure and system is not there, though. they dont take enough shots and their breakouts have been poor lately. They dont adapt tactically at all during games. DeBoer has to go. This is on the coaches more than the players.

 

We aren't very talented at all. I'm shocked people think that. We are beyond talent deficient, the only reason we win any games at all is we still have a culture of hard work, and we don't often quit. But to much talent? You sound like people on my Vikings forum.

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I quit watching after the 2nd period. I never do that.

I did as well, but getting up early for work was an equal driving force. Game was tough to watch from an entertainment point of view. To think all those years Devils fans would get defensive when other teams fans parroted the "boring" label around and now fewer and fewer of us are taking exception to this criticism for good reason.

My hopes for turning this ship around focus on packaging Gelinas, Zajac, and a pick to whichever western team can send back three young scoring forwards, one of which is a center. Then deal Brunner or Ryder for whatever the market best returns and commit to playing guys like Boucher and Matteau who both had solid training camps. Infuse this roster with youh and speed. Purge it of inconsistent, woefully underachieving, ever disappointing stand ins.

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If Elias is still looking lost in another couple months, I'd start thinking about trading him.

I've read that Edmonton is looking for a 2nd line center. Wonder if they'd swap Eberle for Elias straight up. I might throw in Gelinas if they threw in a pick.

Maybe Elias+Gelinas for Eberle+2nd rd pick.

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We aren't very talented at all. I'm shocked people think that. We are beyond talent deficient, the only reason we win any games at all is we still have a culture of hard work, and we don't often quit. But to much talent? You sound like people on my Vikings forum.

I strongly believe we are talented enough for the playoffs if the team's head coach can get the best out of everyone. They'd still be slow up front and green at the back, but with enough depth and goaltending to grab a playoff spot.

The system they play is also not generating enough shots from various areas. So again, this team needs coaching adjustments more than anything. The talent is there. Andy Greene didnt suddenly go from a rock to looking seriously injured overnight. Elias didnt age twenty years overnight. Schneider didnt turn into ari ahonen overnight. Our young players aren't playing to their potential for a reason. It's all something a coach can improve upon. (Edit: we have also lost a few games this year on bad goaltending and coaching)

On a personnel note (and when aren't we questioning PDB personnel decisions), I'd love to see Ruutu back on a line with Jagr. They did so well together last season post-deadline. Zajac needs to be relegated to a checking line. And despite skating hard the last week, Gionta needs to sit when we are in dire need of goals.

Edited by devlman
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I strongly believe we are talented enough for the playoffs if the team's head coach can get the best out of everyone. They'd still be slow up front and green at the back, but with enough depth and goaltending to grab a playoff spot.

The system they play is also not generating enough shots from various areas. So again, this team needs coaching adjustments more than anything. The talent is there. Andy Greene didnt suddenly go from a rock to looking seriously injured overnight. Elias didnt age twenty years overnight. Schneider didnt turn into ari ahonen overnight. Our young players aren't playing to their potential for a reason. It's all something a coach can improve upon. (Edit: we have also lost a few games this year on bad goaltending and coaching)

On a personnel note (and when aren't we questioning PDB personnel decisions), I'd love to see Ruutu back on a line with Jagr. They did so well together last season post-deadline. Zajac needs to be relegated to a checking line. And despite skating hard the last week, Gionta needs to sit when we are in dire need of goals.

 

So tell me you honestly think were on par with most of the league in term of talent looking at our roster, in term of players who can take over a game or game changers.... I simply can't agree with that i'd be lying to myself.

 

The problem is we've been in "surviving mode" for a few years and that's not always good long term. Cause you're not winning, and you're not making the right step to be better in the future.

 

few questions just for the sake of it... go through all NHL team and think... ok were playing this team tnight... what players are you thinking? it's always obvious... chicago, Toews, Kane... Tampa... Stamkos... Washington, ovechkin... pittsburgh, crosby malkin... etc etc

 

then there's team where you have to think for a moment... Us.. people may think Jagr cause of course he's jagr but its not the same thing... Sabres... same... no one comes to mind... Who's the face of our franchise? What jersey do you think sell the most?

 

It may be silly questions... but we're seriously lacking top talent and identity. Salvador is our fvcking captain too. How shameful is that?

Edited by SterioDesign
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So tell me you honestly think were on par with most of the league in term of talent looking at our roster, in term of players who can take over a game or game changers.... I simply can't agree with that i'd be lying to myself.

 

The problem is we've been in "surviving mode" for a few years and that's not always good long term. Cause you're not winning, and you're not making the right step to be better in the future.

 

few questions just for the sake of it... go through all NHL team and think... ok were playing this team tnight... what players are you thinking? it's always obvious... chicago, Toews, Kane... Tampa... Stamkos... Washington, ovechkin... pittsburgh, crosby malkin... etc etc

 

then there's team where you have to think for a moment... Us.. people may think Jagr cause of course he's jagr but its not the same thing... Sabres... same... no one comes to mind... Who's the face of our franchise? What jersey do you think sell the most?

 

It may be silly questions... but we're seriously lacking top talent and identity. Salvador is our fvcking captain too. How shameful is that?

 

First off, I just want to say I'm not arguing with you, I'm discussing this idea with you. 

 

I'm sure eventually the Devils will have a talent like that again. This point has been brought up before, but it takes losing a lot to get that type of player. 

 

Toews 3rd overall, Kane 1st overall, Ovechkin 1st overall, Crosby 1st overall, Malkin 2nd overall. You have to lose, and then you have to hope there's a major talent available, and then you have to hope that the players actually develops has expected. 

 

So unless you're bad enough where you're going to pick 1 - 3, you really aren't going to get that level of talent. Then once you do you have to build a team around that player, which of course takes years. The Islanders drafted Tavares 5 years ago and it's just starting to pay off now. I'm not saying it isn't a way to go, I'm just saying I hope people realize how long it really takes to hit rock bottom and come back up. 

 

The Devils are in this weird spot where they are 2 points out of the playoffs and 6 out of dead last. No matter what, they won't be bad enough for a top 3 pick, but they won't be a cup team if they sneak into the playoffs. If the season ended right now with no lottery pick, the Devils would pick 9th overall. I think the best we can do this year is watch the kids grow, let the season be what it is, and get a pick in the 7-15 range. And hope for lottery luck haha. 

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First off, I just want to say I'm not arguing with you, I'm discussing this idea with you. 

 

I'm sure eventually the Devils will have a talent like that again. This point has been brought up before, but it takes losing a lot to get that type of player. 

 

Toews 3rd overall, Kane 1st overall, Ovechkin 1st overall, Crosby 1st overall, Malkin 2nd overall. You have to lose, and then you have to hope there's a major talent available, and then you have to hope that the players actually develops has expected. 

 

So unless you're bad enough where you're going to pick 1 - 3, you really aren't going to get that level of talent. Then once you do you have to build a team around that player, which of course takes years. The Islanders drafted Tavares 5 years ago and it's just starting to pay off now. I'm not saying it isn't a way to go, I'm just saying I hope people realize how long it really takes to hit rock bottom and come back up. 

 

The Devils are in this weird spot where they are 2 points out of the playoffs and 6 out of dead last. No matter what, they won't be bad enough for a top 3 pick, but they won't be a cup team if they sneak into the playoffs. If the season ended right now with no lottery pick, the Devils would pick 9th overall. I think the best we can do this year is watch the kids grow, let the season be what it is, and get a pick in the 7-15 range. And hope for lottery luck haha. 

 

of course and we cant expect to get guys like Oshie or Giroux past the 15th pick all the time but i like the way the Blues built their team they had a few top picks but they got a ton of awesome players that were later picks. gotta give them credits for drafting those guys.

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of course and we cant expect to get guys like Oshie or Giroux past the 15th pick all the time but i like the way the Blues built their team they had a few top picks but they got a ton of awesome players that were later picks. gotta give them credits for drafting those guys.

 

Yeah, they did some great 1st and 2nd rd drafting, but not much in the later rounds. I believe Ryan Reaves is the only player on their roster that they themselves drafted later than the second rd. I don't think they have a true talent like you were mentioning, although Tarasenko looks like he will develop into one, but they are a good blue print (no pun intended) on building a solid team. I really like Jake Allen as well. 

 

I do have to point out, though, that they missed the playoffs 5 times in the last 10 years. From 2005 to 2010, their earliest picks were 1st, 13th, 4th, 17th, 14th. They had 9 total 1st rd picks in that time. I think pretty much all teams need to build through the draft, and have to lose to get good enough picks to make a true difference. The later the pick, the more of a crap shoot it can be. 

 

Other than Larsson in 2011, if the Devils pick 16th or better this year, it'll be their highest pick since drafting 10th overall in 1996. 

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So tell me you honestly think were on par with most of the league in term of talent looking at our roster, in term of players who can take over a game or game changers.... I simply can't agree with that i'd be lying to myself.

The problem is we've been in "surviving mode" for a few years and that's not always good long term. Cause you're not winning, and you're not making the right step to be better in the future.

few questions just for the sake of it... go through all NHL team and think... ok were playing this team tnight... what players are you thinking? it's always obvious... chicago, Toews, Kane... Tampa... Stamkos... Washington, ovechkin... pittsburgh, crosby malkin... etc etc

then there's team where you have to think for a moment... Us.. people may think Jagr cause of course he's jagr but its not the same thing... Sabres... same... no one comes to mind... Who's the face of our franchise? What jersey do you think sell the most?

It may be silly questions... but we're seriously lacking top talent and identity. Salvador is our fvcking captain too. How shameful is that?

Re-read your first paragraph and see if it syncs up with what I said about us having enough talent. I never said we had game changer talent. But we do have enough talent to be the 8th best team in the east come April.

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Re-read your first paragraph and see if it syncs up with what I said about us having enough talent. I never said we had game changer talent. But we do have enough talent to be the 8th best team in the east come April.

 

i get that but is that what a GM should be trying to build? A teams juuuuust good enough to make the playoffs... and then think "heyyyy once you're in everything is possible!" Thats very cute and all but that's not what they have to do. They have to build teams that can win it.

 

And quite often with that mentality to go "all in" to at least make the playoffs you miss on some opportunities to get better in the future (where then you might have built something really solid to go all out)... it's fine if you're a young team cause even if you don't make it far in the playoffs its still building towards the future. We're a team declining as fast as blink of an eye. We need to look for the future here. We're never gonna win anything with this core. Never. We couldnt win while having Parise and Kovy we certainly can't now, thats delusional. 

Edited by SterioDesign
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i get that but is that what a GM should be trying to build? A teams juuuuust good enough to make the playoffs... and then think "heyyyy once you're in everything is possible!" Thats very cute and all but that's not what they have to do. They have to build teams that can win it.

 

And quite often with that mentality to go "all in" to at least make the playoffs you miss on some opportunities to get better in the future (where then you might have built something really solid to go all out)... it's fine if you're a young team cause even if you don't make it far in the playoffs its still building towards the future. We're a team declining as fast as blink of an eye. We need to look for the future here. We're never gonna win anything with this core. Never. We couldnt win while having Parise and Kovy we certainly can't now, thats delusional. 

 

 

You are making sense SD.

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i get that but is that what a GM should be trying to build? A teams juuuuust good enough to make the playoffs... and then think "heyyyy once you're in everything is possible!" Thats very cute and all but that's not what they have to do. They have to build teams that can win it.

 

And quite often with that mentality to go "all in" to at least make the playoffs you miss on some opportunities to get better in the future (where then you might have built something really solid to go all out)... it's fine if you're a young team cause even if you don't make it far in the playoffs its still building towards the future. We're a team declining as fast as blink of an eye. We need to look for the future here. We're never gonna win anything with this core. Never. We couldnt win while having Parise and Kovy we certainly can't now, thats delusional. 

 

Would I like it if my team was Cup contenders every year? Sure, but thats not possible.

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i get that but is that what a GM should be trying to build? A teams juuuuust good enough to make the playoffs... and then think "heyyyy once you're in everything is possible!" Thats very cute and all but that's not what they have to do. They have to build teams that can win it.

 

And quite often with that mentality to go "all in" to at least make the playoffs you miss on some opportunities to get better in the future (where then you might have built something really solid to go all out)... it's fine if you're a young team cause even if you don't make it far in the playoffs its still building towards the future. We're a team declining as fast as blink of an eye. We need to look for the future here. We're never gonna win anything with this core. Never. We couldnt win while having Parise and Kovy we certainly can't now, thats delusional. 

 

But then you have to start going into the tank, which can be risky. As much as we complain about this team, they were consistently having 100 point seasons until just recently. It didn't make sense to sell everything off when you win the division most years. The goaltending and defense are looking good for the future. 

 

Honestly, I really don't know how this fan base is going to handle being as bad as a team NEEDS to be to get a new forward core. We finished 11 from the bottom last year and people were losing their minds. It's going to get ugly around here. People can't handle the team declining, and it's a necessity at this point. 

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But then you have to start going into the tank, which can be risky. As much as we complain about this team, they were consistently having 100 point seasons until just recently. It didn't make sense to sell everything off when you win the division most years. The goaltending and defense are looking good for the future. 

 

Honestly, I really don't know how this fan base is going to handle being as bad as a team NEEDS to be to get a new forward core. We finished 11 from the bottom last year and people were losing their minds. It's going to get ugly around here. People can't handle the team declining, and it's a necessity at this point. 

 

I dont see it as tanking at all. were the sharks tanking cause they traded Clowe at the deadline? I'd rather lose knowing it's for the best than losing and losing assets like we've been for the last few years. At this point its safer to try to get to a point with less and try to get assets out of it, than risking losing it all for nothing if we dont make it. And lets be honest, making the playoffs is one thing but what reall y matter is winning the cup and its not happening with this group.

 

And same thing, people are frustrated cause we lost soooooooo much and so fast, everything we loved as Devils fans is gone in the span of a few years. 

 

Brodeur is gone, Parise is gone, Kovalchuk is gone, Clarkson is gone, Doc is gone, Chiko is gone, Robinson is gone. Then the coaches are making decisions that makes you want to punch living creatures.

 

Personally i could handle seeing the team struggle knowing they are shooting for the future, banking picks and prospects. Rather than seeing a collection of players that lou got on the cheap to patch holes and lose that way and see our assets walk and walk and walk and we're not getting much better that way. THATS frustrating more than anything. 

Edited by SterioDesign
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But then you have to start going into the tank, which can be risky. As much as we complain about this team, they were consistently having 100 point seasons until just recently. It didn't make sense to sell everything off when you win the division most years. The goaltending and defense are looking good for the future. 

 

Honestly, I really don't know how this fan base is going to handle being as bad as a team NEEDS to be to get a new forward core. We finished 11 from the bottom last year and people were losing their minds. It's going to get ugly around here. People can't handle the team declining, and it's a necessity at this point. 

 

People think the Devils have badly mishandled Adam Larsson.  I'd like to see the excuses when the players are given all the playing time and turn out to be not good, which is something that happens when you rebuild your team - some of the high draft picks don't turn out well.

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