Is it time to trade Cory Schenider?

[Derlique]

In Doc's voice "Let's see how Beetle can knife his way out of this one!"

[Onddeck]

Don't careeeeeeee

[thecoffeecake]

I'm down to trade him. What are the chances we're competitive in his prime? I know it's not going to happen, but I wouldn't hate it. The only thing he's doing at this point besides selling a few shirts is keeping us a spot or two higher in the draft.

[jagknife]

top

 

[slasher72]

It is a risk, but I don't want to pay Cory $6 million if the difference between the two players is an 8.7 vs 8.5. Especially if we can acquire assets that actually address our more pertinent and pressing need - FORWARDS.

You are right, Taylor Hall might not be the ideal player. Maybe RNH is? Maybe you can get Benn out of Dallas or Seguin out of there, they need goaltending desperately too.

Schneider to Tampa for Tyler Johnson and Andrej Palat. Lol.

[mfitz804]

If someone wanted to give us a bunch of good forwards and a decent goalie, sure. Otherwise no thanks.

[sokar]

the only way i would trade Schenider is if Oilers called me up and said we will give you our first overall for Cory

[dmann422]

lol this was a joke when it was first proposed it's even more a joke now

[Devils Pride 26]

In Doc's voice "Let's see how Beetle can knife his way out of this one!"

Hahahahaha yes

[mfitz804]

the only way i would trade Schenider is if Oilers called me up and said we will give you our first overall for Cory

Yeah I'd probably do that.

[Lateralous]

Let me preface this by saying I think that Schneider belongs with a select few goalies in this league that are true difference makers in net. If he had a better supporting cast, I think we're talking about a guy that is right there, or very close to the Lundqvist, Price, quick level.

With that said, what if Edmonton offered something like Drasaitl, 16 overall and their 2nd rounder or at least the one they acquired in the Perron deal (56th overall?). The Devils could theoretically add Draisaitl, Marner/Barzal at 6, a guy like Konecny at 16 and two or three of Bracco/Chlapik/Senyshyn/Beauvillier in the second round. That's one hell of a rebuild of the offense in one summer.

While obviously he's no Schneider, you could also probably get a guy like Jonathan Bernier on the cheap coming off the sh!t show season in Toronto with that extra second. In this scenario, we haven't given up any of the young defensemen yet either. I think Bernier is a much better goalie than it appeared in TO but he is also going to steal a few less games than Scheneider, so we're probably still adding another top 10 forward at the draft next summer too. If you're trying to find a road map to becoming a contender in 3 or so years, trading Schneider is at least something worth exploring, as crazy as it sounds.

Edit: before people hammer me about how good Bernier is, it's just an example of what would be available. It's always easier to get a good goalie than it is any other position. No way we could have got a position player as good and highly regarded as Schneider for just our 9th overall pick. Just looking at the final four this year, one of Bishop/vasilevsky, Anderson/Gibson and probably Talbot will all be looking for starting positions elsewhere within the next 2 years.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Lateralous

[William D'Aquila]

Let me preface this by saying I think that Schneider belongs with a select few goalies in this league that are true difference makers in net. If he had a better supporting cast, I think we're talking about a guy that is right there, or very close to the Lundqvist, Price, quick level.

With that said, what if Edmonton offered something like Drasaitl, 16 overall and their 2nd rounder or at least the one they acquired in the Perron deal (56th overall?). The Devils could theoretically add Draisaitl, Marner/Barzal at 6, a guy like Konecny at 16 and two or three of Bracco/Chlapik/Senyshyn/Beauvillier in the second round. That's one hell of a rebuild of the offense in one summer.

While obviously he's no Schneider, you could also probably get a guy like Jonathan Bernier on the cheap coming off the sh!t show season in Toronto with that extra second. In this scenario, we haven't given up any of the young defensemen yet either. I think Bernier is a much better goalie than it appeared in TO but he is also going to steal a few less games than Scheneider, so we're probably still adding another top 10 forward at the draft next summer too. If you're trying to find a road map to becoming a contender in 3 or so years, trading Schneider is at least something worth exploring, as crazy as it sounds.

Edit: before people hammer me about how good Bernier is, it's just an example of what would be available. It's always easier to get a good goalie than it is any other position. No way we could have got a position player as good and highly regarded as Schneider for just our 9th overall pick. Just looking at the final four this year, one of Bishop/vasilevsky, Anderson/Gibson and probably Talbot will all be looking for starting positions elsewhere within the next 2 years.

 

I'm with you man.

[devilsrule33]

Let me preface this by saying I think that Schneider belongs with a select few goalies in this league that are true difference makers in net. If he had a better supporting cast, I think we're talking about a guy that is right there, or very close to the Lundqvist, Price, quick level.

With that said, what if Edmonton offered something like Drasaitl, 16 overall and their 2nd rounder or at least the one they acquired in the Perron deal (56th overall?). The Devils could theoretically add Draisaitl, Marner/Barzal at 6, a guy like Konecny at 16 and two or three of Bracco/Chlapik/Senyshyn/Beauvillier in the second round. That's one hell of a rebuild of the offense in one summer.

While obviously he's no Schneider, you could also probably get a guy like Jonathan Bernier on the cheap coming off the sh!t show season in Toronto with that extra second. In this scenario, we haven't given up any of the young defensemen yet either. I think Bernier is a much better goalie than it appeared in TO but he is also going to steal a few less games than Scheneider, so we're probably still adding another top 10 forward at the draft next summer too. If you're trying to find a road map to becoming a contender in 3 or so years, trading Schneider is at least something worth exploring, as crazy as it sounds.

Edit: before people hammer me about how good Bernier is, it's just an example of what would be available. It's always easier to get a good goalie than it is any other position. No way we could have got a position player as good and highly regarded as Schneider for just our 9th overall pick. Just looking at the final four this year, one of Bishop/vasilevsky, Anderson/Gibson and probably Talbot will all be looking for starting positions elsewhere within the next 2 years.

 

"It's always easier to get a good goalie than it is any other position."

 

That might be why Edmonton never does a deal like this. Just don't see this as a trade the Oilers need to make at this time, especially with a new GM in the mix. They can upgrade the goaltending position in a number of ways without having to give up all that. 

[Marshall]

I'm not really in the trade Schneider camp, but it's increasingly likely that whenever the Devils are ready to compete, Schneider will be past his prime (and possibly in rapid decline, or close to it). The timeline for when this team gets good again and Schneider's prime just doesn't mesh, unless an amazing retool happens (which I can't see happening even in my wildest dreams, because the assets aren't there). The Devils basically need homeruns everywhere in this draft + shrewd signings + a heist of a trade.

 

That's why I'm not against the discussion on trading Schneider. Amazing goalie? Yep. Worth his contract? Yep. But what's that worth if he, in fact, makes the rebuild more difficult (because he's that frickin' good) and the assets you bring back could accelerate the rebuild? It's unlikely that the Devils' next goalie will be as good as Schneider, but then again there're more able goalies than there are teams these days.

[Daniel]

I'm not really in the trade Schneider camp, but it's increasingly likely that whenever the Devils are ready to compete, Schneider will be past his prime (and possibly in rapid decline, or close to it). The timeline for when this team gets good again and Schneider's prime just doesn't mesh, unless an amazing retool happens (which I can't see happening even in my wildest dreams, because the assets aren't there). The Devils basically need homeruns everywhere in this draft + shrewd signings + a heist of a trade.

 

That's why I'm not against the discussion on trading Schneider. Amazing goalie? Yep. Worth his contract? Yep. But what's that worth if he, in fact, makes the rebuild more difficult (because he's that frickin' good) and the assets you bring back could accelerate the rebuild? It's unlikely that the Devils' next goalie will be as good as Schneider, but then again there're more able goalies than there are teams these days.

 

He's only 29, and doesn't have that many games started (197) relative to his age.   By contrast, Lundqvist who is 33 and still playing at a high level has started 613 games. 

 

The best case scenario is that the Devils are ready to compete for a playoff spot in 2016-2017, and it's reasonable to expect that they will in 2017-2018.  By then Schneider has only 300-350 starts under his belt, which really isn't that much.  

[Steadevils]

I don't think now is the time to trade him for multiple reasons. 1. Dick move off of a new contract. 2. Maybe entice FA's with having a top goaltender 3.I think his stock could get even higher if he continues to play well on what should be a very bad team. I will preface this by saying I don't ever recall this happening, but a trade of a top 5 goaltender to a contender w/out a top goalie at the deadline?!!? I could see that really getting a kings ransom with notion that a hot goalie can carry a team to a cup moreso than any other position.

 

I also enjoy this speculative topic, so those turning the thread into sh!tting on an individual poster and just saying flat out "never going to happen" are not adding anything to what could be an interesting conversation.

[njdevsftw]

It is frustrating when you McDavid run is ruined by awesome goaltending! CURSE YOU SCHNEIDER

[StormJosh]

You really shouldn't be trading star players for draft picks. Even Schneider haters probably concede he is a top-10 goalie in the NHL. With draft picks, even top-5 picks fail all the time...then what. If they don't fail, outside of #1/2 they do not often become top-10 at their position. Second round picks only become NHL players at about a 25% rate, third through 7th average something like 5-20%.  Of those, something like 10% become true impact players.

 

Plus, its about so much more than a single draft (for better or worse). Penguins won the Lemieux sweepstakes over the Devils and turned it into 2 cups over his career. We went on a different track and turned it into 3 cups over his career. The same year we drafted Brodeur we could have gone the other way and traded up to pick Petr Nedved at #2. My long way of saying it takes time and discipline and its nearly impossible to rebuild through trading. Really, you'd be better suited to have a strategy of overall tanking rather than trading a single player for picks now.

[Triumph]

I'm not really in the trade Schneider camp, but it's increasingly likely that whenever the Devils are ready to compete, Schneider will be past his prime (and possibly in rapid decline, or close to it). The timeline for when this team gets good again and Schneider's prime just doesn't mesh, unless an amazing retool happens (which I can't see happening even in my wildest dreams, because the assets aren't there). The Devils basically need homeruns everywhere in this draft + shrewd signings + a heist of a trade.

 

That's why I'm not against the discussion on trading Schneider. Amazing goalie? Yep. Worth his contract? Yep. But what's that worth if he, in fact, makes the rebuild more difficult (because he's that frickin' good) and the assets you bring back could accelerate the rebuild? It's unlikely that the Devils' next goalie will be as good as Schneider, but then again there're more able goalies than there are teams these days.

 

Right - the idea that the Devils can't get full value on Schneider is correct.  But would you trade Schneider to move from 9 to 2 in next year's draft?  Probably, and that's effectively what that would do.  The issue is that when you do trade Schneider, you do have to be that much better.  To be a playoff team, this team with Schneider needs a 1st line forward and likely a few 2nd line forwards - not impossible to do. Without him you've really got to get multiple 1st line forwards and 2nd line forwards.

[Lateralous]

"It's always easier to get a good goalie than it is any other position."

 

That might be why Edmonton never does a deal like this. Just don't see this as a trade the Oilers need to make at this time, especially with a new GM in the mix. They can upgrade the goaltending position in a number of ways without having to give up all that. 

 

 

I'm not so sure they shouldn't do it.  Edmonton is at a point where they've sucked for a decade, had fan apathy set in (although that has probably changed with McDavid and new management), have a new arena on the way and have stockpiled all the youth and futures any team could ever want.  They are at the point where they have all the young assets, they need to worry about proper development and culture change.  I guess it depends on what your opinion of Schneider is.  Yes, it's easy to get a good goalie but it's very hard to get one of the few superstar goalies, of which I think Schneider is one. Looking at it from an Oiler POV, I would swap Draisaitl and two futures, who may or may not pan out, for a player that is as close as you're going to get to a surefire superstar from day 1.  No development even necessary!  

 

For the Devils, I typically hate trading quality for quantity but in this case, the roster has been allowed to erode to a point that it has to be seriously considered.  Additionally, by the nature of the position, Schneider kind of keeps us from ever really totally bottoming out and getting that top 5 forward pick unless we get lucky with the new lottery system.  

 

The good part about this is that unlike the Canucks, we haven't put ourselves in a corner and the Devils don't have to trade Schneider. He could certainly be a core player for NJ for the duration of his contract given the low mileage on him.   Decisions like this are the fascinating part of a GM's job.          

[themightyall]

Tri, I know they have a type of WAR for hockey; do they have that based on position and/or comparatively?  I ask because while everyone knows it's pretty easy to find a serviceable goaltender, but how much better is it to have truly exceptional goaltending.  I'd imagine the difference between Lundqvist and Neimi would be much more pronounced than Phil Kessel and Drew Stafford (relatively the same cap hit and contract status give or take).

[ghdi]

I'm not entirely against trading Schneider if the return is phenomenal. To compare I wouldnt do it if we got something similar to what we paid for him. It would have to be double that in terms of quality. Cory's signed through 2022, so we have a long time with him yet and as its seen, goaltenders "sell by" dates vary incredibly. Cory could play at an elite or close to elite level for 7-10 more years, which is more than enough time for the Devils to get back to contention. Two solid offseasons and the Devils could be right back in the thick of things. 

 

That said:

 

- We're not trading him anytime soon. Certainly not this offseason. I personally think that if he has another season where he's by and large the best player on the team and we're at the same point or even worse, than it becomes something that will need to be considered more. It's not that time yet. I guarantee that the front office are not even thinking about it yet in any type of serious manner. At most, its a distant itch. 

- Edmonton being the trade partner is a stretch of the stretchiest proportions. Cory's NTC will allow him to prevent that. Barely anyone wants to go to Edmonton on their own volition and they still haven't proven that they can do anything with the talent on their roster. I can't see Cory who is a MA native accepting a trade to Siberia when he's comfortable here and likes being close to home. We know how the Devils do business. With Lou still in a very meaningful position, I cannot see them saying to Cory before July 1 of this year "Sorry Ginger, you're traded to Edmonton.".

- A trump card here could be Keith Kinkaid. If he keeps progressing it may make more sense to ride him after a season or two and then consider trading Cory. 

 

I don't think any fan of this team who follows it at a meaningful level disagrees that we need to get younger and basically rebuild. The thing is, I don't think the franchise are fully in this mindset. Obviously they realize they need to make some changes in many respects, but there will be other pieces we'll see moved before Schneider. Zajac, Cammalleri, and defensive prospects will all likely be shopped or moved before Cory would be. 

Edited May 29, 2015 by ghdi

[Marshall]

I'm not entirely against trading Schneider if the return is phenomenal. To compare I wouldnt do it if we got something similar to what we paid for him. It would have to be double that in terms of quality. Cory's signed through 2022, so we have a long time with him yet and as its seen, goaltenders "sell by" dates vary incredibly. Cory could play at an elite or close to elite level for 7-10 more years, which is more than enough time for the Devils to get back to contention. Two solid offseasons and the Devils could be right back in the thick of things. 

 

 

 

If Schneider is elite beyond 33 then I'm surprised. Go look at how many top flight goalies that continued to be that beyond 35. It's not a very long list.

[ghdi]

If Schneider is elite beyond 33 then I'm surprised. Go look at how many top flight goalies that continued to be that beyond 35. It's not a very long list.

 

I'm not in a position right now to look it up, but it doesnt matter if its not a long list. Its possible. And my point still stands, that it doesn't need to take years for the Devils to be in contention for a playoff spot. With Cory on the team, it could even be this coming season depending on the moves made this offseason and during the season and how the players adapt to whomever the new coach is. We're not devoid of talent.  If Cory had a better team in front of him this season, he would've likely been near the top of every major goaltending statistic (except shootouts lol).

 

We're in a pretty good position right now with Cory and a guy in the wings (Kinkaid) that could also further develop to be a strong goaltender. I just don't think the team is in a position to trade Cory yet and think it's far fetched. I don't think its out of the question in the next couple of seasons and Im not against it if the return is right, its just not happening anytime soon. I just don't think the front office is in the same mindset that a lot of the fans are in respect to a rebuild. They're not going to blow it all up yet.

Edited May 29, 2015 by ghdi

[Marshall]

I'm not in a position right now to look it up, but it doesnt matter if its not a long list. Its possible. And my point still stands

 

Sure as sh!t it matters if it's a long list of not. It's a bad bet to make. Bad bets turn in profit every now and then, but we're talking probability here, not destiny.