squishyx Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 You can turn this into a contest of what culture deserves the most collective guilt for whatever past sins. Personally, I find it silly and tedious, and it's why whenever some apologist for Islamic fanaticism brings up the Crusades or American Indians, I realize they have nothing useful to add. The way it stands now is that France and many EU countries have this policy of inviting a lot of people from countries that adhere to a religion, as it is practiced in the mainstream right now, that rejects Western values like freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of thought, and without asking too many questions or being too discriminating about who they let in. It's suicidely naive to think that they'll leave that cultural baggage at the door, and that it'll somehow be some better kind of France if it ever gets to a point where 30 to 40 percent of the country is Muslim, especially when polite society deems the most important thing in the world is to not offend their sensibilities. Deflecting these very real and valid concerns with white/male/cisgendered/Christian guilt not only avoids addressing a real issue, but may very well throw gasoline on the fire. Well I am glad you got that out of your system, I really don't see how it it applies to what I said. I am talking about the horrible notion of "the ends justifying the means" mentality that JD is saying is totally normal and fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 This attitude only perpetuates violence. It rewards the most extremist who try to claw their way to the top of the totem pole. It's easy to sit from here now and say "look at great this country is!" but it certainly wasn't like that for blacks, women, and Asian's of this country for centuries. And extremist Muslims can use your exact logic to justify the horrible things they are doing now if they were to succeed. A few centuries from now they would say "Sure a long time ago we committed decades worth of terrorism on innocent civilians of other faiths not to mention the killing of hundreds of thousands of our own.. but hey look at this new society we built now". White men oppressed blacks, but they freed them, too. White men get the credit for the improvement of fortunes of blacks and other minority groups, and women, in the United States, do they not? Is there a country in Africa that offers a better standard of living for blacks than the U.S.? I get your point, but here's my point: There is no USA without white people. We can wring hands about Indian genocide, black slavery and Japanese internment camps ad nauseum. White men designed the system of government. White men fought the wars, including the first one for independence. White men built the cities, the factories and the farms, built communities. I'm proud of that. I choose to attach a color to those achievements. It may sound awful to you, but isn't it the truth? There's an old saying that "we stand on the shoulders of giants." Whose shoulders are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squishyx Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 White men oppressed blacks, but they freed them, too. White men get the credit for the improvement of fortunes of blacks and other minority groups, and women, in the United States, do they not? Is there a country in Africa that offers a better standard of living for blacks than the U.S.? I get your point, but here's my point: There is no USA without white people. We can wring hands about Indian genocide, black slavery and Japanese internment camps ad nauseum. White men designed the system of government. White men fought the wars, including the first one for independence. White men built the cities, the factories and the farms, built communities. I'm proud of that. I choose to attach a color to those achievements. It may sound awful to you, but isn't it the truth? There's an old saying that "we stand on the shoulders of giants." Whose shoulders are they? I do not think today's white man gets credit for improving the fortunes of blacks any more then today's white man gets the blame for their misfortune. I think there is a reality that black people in this country have greater struggles then their white counter parts. Whether that's because of the remnants of slavery, or latent / blatant racism or whatever is somewhat moot. This is our country and we need to decide how we want our people treated and how far we are willing to go to ensure that any American has the same rights and opportunities as the next, regardless of religion, race, orientation etc. I personally do not think we are there yet, but that's not because of white guilt, it's just my observation. And again I feel like you are pretty much saying "yes we did sh!tty things in the past, but I wouldn't change a thing because look how awesome we turned out". Where as I would say, "yes we did sh!tty things in the past, how can we learn from them so we can become an even greater country then we are today". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well I am glad you got that out of your system, I really don't see how it it applies to what I said. I am talking about the horrible notion of "the ends justifying the means" mentality that JD is saying is totally normal and fine. JD was responding to the dose of white guilt that Eaglejelly tried to throw in there, by saying he doesn't have anything to feel guilty about. I took your response to mean that JD's attitude was dangerous and no different from what Islamic terrorists are doing. My point I guess is that the past guilt for this or that or lack thereof is not relevant to what's really going on. I guess I can kind of see the mismatch, so take what I said however you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Leeds Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I don't retain an ounce of guilt for what was done in the past. If people here want to continue to apologize and excuse this in your face rise of Islamic Fascism, they have that right. They too will see their sons and daughters subject to the same barbarity they call for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 And again I feel like you are pretty much saying "yes we did sh!tty things in the past, but I wouldn't change a thing because look how awesome we turned out". Where as I would say, "yes we did sh!tty things in the past, how can we learn from them so we can become an even greater country then we are today". I'll take your word for it that that's your particular attitude. From what I see every day though, obsessing over the sh!tty things is not seen as a means to actually learn or improve on anything, or even actually gain any perspective on things. It's about jockeying for position on the "I'm owed something" totem pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squishyx Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I'll take your word for it that that's your particular attitude. From what I see every day though, obsessing over the sh!tty things is not seen as a means to actually learn or improve on anything, or even actually gain any perspective on things. It's about jockeying for position on the "I'm owed something" totem pole. I agree there's not much value in looking back and saying "these people who are longer alive were oppressed, how can we make ourselves feel better?". But I think it's fair game to look at the past for hypocrisy. The people who are here today saying "don't let the Muslims in" almost assuredly have some ethnic background that at some point in the last few hundred years had the same vitriol and hate thrown at them. I don't retain an ounce of guilt for what was done in the past. If people here want to continue to apologize and excuse this in your face rise of Islamic Fascism, they have that right. They too will see their sons and daughters subject to the same barbarity they call for. Oh spare us. The civilized world is not endanger of collapsing, could you possible be more dramatic? This was an awful tragedy, one we are becoming all too familiar with, but our way of life is not on brink. Democracy has time and time again proven to be the most resilient form of society, it has trumped evil every single time and there is no reason to believe it will fail to do so in a hypothetical war that pits the modern world in a war against Islam. You are just shooting spitballs from the back of the class room, taking cheap shots against people who you don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moustic Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 I know that it could open a wormbox with this... You can see us being weak for trying to live together with other cultures... i don't wanna debate about that right now. I'm too much in pain. But yeah... no... we aren't weak. We don't react the same way, we don't have the same point of view... The vast majority of muslim in France aren't trying to "change France"... The vast majority of Muslim see themself as french... hey... it's good as they are french ! There is a war in our land right now... "They" can only win if there is a rift inside our society. We will win against their bullsh!t by giving the kids a future, something to hope... don't let them enter under the claws of these a$$hole that teach hate ! People (that we loved so much, police that were doing their job, bunch of innocent people) were killed because they draw pictures. I can't process... Difficult debate will have to wait for me... But never forget that, and it's respectable, you bring your american point of view... But we aren't the same... we want the good for our friend (coz yes, we are friends) .. But we don't understand each other all the time... But you may be right.. i am maybe weak. i would gladly admit this right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I know that it could open a wormbox with this... You can see us being weak for trying to live together with other cultures... i don't wanna debate about that right now. I'm too much in pain. But yeah... no... we aren't weak. We don't react the same way, we don't have the same point of view... The vast majority of muslim in France aren't trying to "change France"... The vast majority of Muslim see themself as french... hey... it's good as they are french ! There is a war in our land right now... "They" can only win if there is a rift inside our society. We will win against their bullsh!t by giving the kids a future, something to hope... don't let them enter under the claws of these a$$hole that teach hate ! People (that we loved so much, police that were doing their job, bunch of innocent people) were killed because they draw pictures. I can't process... Difficult debate will have to wait for me... But never forget that, and it's respectable, you bring your american point of view... But we aren't the same... we want the good for our friend (coz yes, we are friends) .. But we don't understand each other all the time... But you may be right.. i am maybe weak. i would gladly admit this right now... It's about being honest, and recognizing that there are specific parts of the world where a particular religion is the dominant one where values that are taken for granted in France are rejected wholesale. So in the places I am speaking about, there would be nothing unusual about being thrown in jail or even being killed for publishing offensive cartoons about Islam. And it's about having the sanity to at least ask whether it's a good idea to admit a lot of people from those lands to the point that they make up an enormous part of the population. If there's any weakness, it's about refusing to deal with these issues honestly, and resorting to white guilt or assuming any divergence from orthodoxy is racist. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I don't consider Muslims to be French. I could get in trouble for saying that in France, couldn't I! But it doesn't matter what I think. If we were to poll white French people, what percentage do you think would say that Muslims are French? I wouldn't be surprised if it was a high percentage, say 50%. Americanization has crept into French culture since the end of World War 2, and the notion that Muslims are French is about as American an idea as you can get. Edited January 8, 2015 by Jerrydevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) I don't consider Muslims to be French. I could get in trouble for saying that in France, couldn't I! But it doesn't matter what I think. If we were to poll white French people, what percentage do you think would say that Muslims are French? I wouldn't be surprised if it was a high percentage, say 50%. Americanization has crept into French culture since the end of World War 2, and the notion that Muslims are French is about as American an idea as you can get.Geez, French national identity is built on not necessarily anti-Americanism, but certainly as a counterweight. So I'll assume French people went down the road they're on all by themselves.What is kind of interesting though is Marie Le Pen has gone so far as to more or less denounce the not so subtle Jew bashing of her father. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Edited January 9, 2015 by Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 What is kind of interesting though is Marie Le Pen has gone so far as to more or less denounce the not so subtle Jew bashing of her father. She is serious about gaining power for the National Front, and spouting venom against Jews will not help achieve that goal. She is much more astute and measured than her old man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moustic Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Once again.. i'm not yet in the moment where i wanna debate ... But now, there is a new front, a new assault.. at 5mn from my house... I just wanna be safe with my kids at home 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Once again.. i'm not yet in the moment where i wanna debate ... But now, there is a new front, a new assault.. at 5mn from my house... I just wanna be safe with my kids at home Stay safe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilMinder Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Condolences for your friend and the terrorist acts Moustic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moustic Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Thanks! Today is the day March... Let's see how United we will be... Oh... And an American insider point of view... Mister crumb http://observer.com/2015/01/legendary-cartoonist-robert-crumb-on-the-massacre-in-paris/#.VLH668FKrHd.facebook Edited January 11, 2015 by moustic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilMinder Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 The rally looked intense in size and who was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 That was quite a show put on in Paris today, but the French government will do nothing to solve the country's problem. The reaction of the political elites and the press will be to do everything they can to smear the National Front, the party that stands to benefit from the Islamic shootings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moustic Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Today I'm proud of being French. What happens next... Happens next. Today was historical and insanely massive Such a great moment in my life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Leeds Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 You should always be proud being French, I'm sure you are, but extra proud yesterday. Stay strong 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William D'Aquila Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I stand with Voltaire, I may not like what you have to say, but I will fight for you to say it. Some real disturbing opinions in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I stand with Voltaire, I may not like what you have to say, but I will fight for you to say it. It'd be nice if France lived up to that saying. It doesn't. Insulting or speaking out against an ethnic group or religion in France, and many other countries for that matter, is against the law. That's a pretty good deal for Muslims. They can keep pouring into France, and traditional Frenchmen are told to shut up about it. Something like 7% of France is Muslim. That sounds like a volatile situation to me. At some point, the white people in France aren't going to stand for their displacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William D'Aquila Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 It'd be nice if France lived up to that saying. It doesn't. Insulting or speaking out against an ethnic group or religion in France, and many other countries for that matter, is against the law. That's a pretty good deal for Muslims. They can keep pouring into France, and traditional Frenchmen are told to shut up about it. Something like 7% of France is Muslim. That sounds like a volatile situation to me. At some point, the white people in France aren't going to stand for their displacement. Do you know what you are talking about? The only European country with laws analogous to what you are saying is German because of their unique history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William D'Aquila Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Read up on the National Front, and tell me the French are not allowed to speak out or an insult an ethnic group or religion. Their whole platform is built on such political tactics. Little background info http://archive.adl.org/international/le-pen_new.html Edited January 13, 2015 by William D'Aquila Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Do you know what you are talking about? The only European country with laws analogous to what you are saying is German because of their unique history. What I said is true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_on_the_Freedom_of_the_Press_of_29_July_1881 Racially defamatory comments and incitement to racial hatred were criminalised when the law was amended by the Law of 1 July 1972. The French parliament further amended the Press Law in 2004 to make it a crime to discriminate against or defame individuals on the basis of their sexual orientation. Such offences are punished by jail terms of between six months and a year and a fine of between €22,500 and €45,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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