SterioDesign Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I'll be (slightly) disappointed if Severson ends up being as good as Weber. Weber is overrated because of his shot - there's not a ton of evidence that he's a star defenseman besides that. hahahahaha oh come on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsfan118 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) SD I agree - I think balance is key. Having good goaltending and above-average defense with a putrid offense gets you.. well, it gets you the Devils of the last few seasons. Sorry, but if you don't see how good Severson is, then it can't be explained to you. He's not a hockey savior but he is a really tremendous talent. Solid skater, makes great defensive reads away from the puck, plays solid 1 on 1 defense, makes good choices in the offensive zone, and can lead the rush up the ice. He's a star defenseman. He walked into the league on to a top pairing and didn't look out of place at all. He's 21st among D (minimum 20 games) in shots/game. He is a game breaking talent, just on defense, where there aren't a ton of fancy moves. Trading him for anything besides a franchise center or a well-established young star winger is just insanity. Okay, I guess I'm going to have to concede that I apparently missed something about Severson here. I watched all the games he played - and yeah, he blew my expectations for a rookie defenseman out of the water. It definitely looks he has the potential to be a top-pairing guy if all pans out. But I never got the impression he was the next coming of Jesus Christ himself like some of you guys here, so I'll hopefully be proven wrong in the coming season. Hype is a crazy thing. I'll be (slightly) disappointed if Severson ends up being as good as Weber. Weber is overrated because of his shot - there's not a ton of evidence that he's a star defenseman besides that. Come on Tri, give me a break.. Edited February 16, 2015 by Devilsfan118 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Yeah, Zidlicky asked for a trade here and has taken well below market 1 year deals 2 years in a row, he can go screw. Unless there's more to the story (the Fourth Period is not all that reliable) not waiving an NTC at the deadline on the last year of a deal is a dick move. Otherwise, I don't recall ever hearing what offers he would have or did get, so I don't see how you can conclude he was paid well below market value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsrule33 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 If Zid doesn't want to go, I won't hold it against him. He took less years and less money to stay in NJ, and all he asked is for protection from being traded. Before each contract, you take that risk every time to have him on this roster. If people get on him, it'll remind me of Leafs fan turning against Sundin and Kaberle for not wanting to be traded. I know you have to vent somewhere, but it be a shame for Zidlicky to get the brunt of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Getting mad at Zids for not waiving his NTC is the same as being pissed about a UFA exercising his right to go to another team. Would it be nice if Zids would waive it for the good of the Devils? Absolutely. But he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. His right, his decision. GMs who make that part of a player's contract have to deal with their choice. Not saying is the case with Lou, but I think GMs sometimes throw these NTCs around thinking it's never going to come back to bite them later...that if or when the time comes, that players will just say "Aw fvck it, I'll waive it, just because." I think the mistake we sometimes make as fans is assuming that everyone is dying to play for a winner, first and foremost. Maybe it is as simple as the guy is comfortable in NJ on and off the ice (even with the team being lousy) and has no desire to go somewhere else. Edited February 16, 2015 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) SD I agree - I think balance is key. Having good goaltending and above-average defense with a putrid offense gets you.. well, it gets you the Devils of the last few seasons. Okay, I guess I'm going to have to concede that I apparently missed something about Severson here. I watched all the games he played - and yeah, he blew my expectations for a rookie defenseman out of the water. It definitely looks he has the potential to be a top-pairing guy if all pans out. But I never got the impression he was the next coming of Jesus Christ himself like some of you guys here, so I'll hopefully be proven wrong in the coming season. Hype is a crazy thing. Come on Tri, give me a break.. Severson is a top pairing D already. Not 'if everything works out'. That's where we differ in opinion - Severson will have to go backwards to not be a top pairing D. hahahahaha oh come on. Weber's copious ice time may be screwing with things - sadly I think this is one of those things we'll never be able to figure out, but at least in basketball I think it's been shown to have large effects, so I'll grant that it might here - but he's just never been a top play driver. Nashville doesn't do much better with him on the ice, and that's even when adjusting for zone starts, and that's been largely true for his whole career. Unless there's more to the story (the Fourth Period is not all that reliable) not waiving an NTC at the deadline on the last year of a deal is a dick move. Otherwise, I don't recall ever hearing what offers he would have or did get, so I don't see how you can conclude he was paid well below market value. It's not a dick move. How is it a dick move to say 'I'd rather stay here'. He has the right in his contract. Maybe he's going to retire after the season. Maybe there's extenuating reasons for him wanting to stay in NJ that you don't know about. Either way, it isn't a dick move - it's unfortunate, but I don't think a player has an obligation to waive an NTC. He came off a season where he was 21st in D scoring and took the same amount of money. You don't think he could've done better than $4M on the open market with $1M in bonuses? Dan Boyle got 2/9. Zidlicky wanted to stay here. Edited February 16, 2015 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeControl Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 we might be looking at zid through 20-20 hindsight. playing in NJ has helped his value considerably. he experiencing a nice little rebirth here. so yeah he's now being paid below his play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsfan118 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Zidlicky has every right to not waive his NTC obviously, but I root for what's best for the Devils, not for what Zidlicky wants If he doesn't waive, for whatever reason, I'll be annoyed. Not so much that I'll curse the guy out or anything but annoyed nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog2020 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 SD I agree - I think balance is key. Having good goaltending and above-average defense with a putrid offense gets you.. well, it gets you the Devils of the last few seasons. Okay, I guess I'm going to have to concede that I apparently missed something about Severson here. I watched all the games he played - and yeah, he blew my expectations for a rookie defenseman out of the water. It definitely looks he has the potential to be a top-pairing guy if all pans out. But I never got the impression he was the next coming of Jesus Christ himself like some of you guys here, so I'll hopefully be proven wrong in the coming season. Hype is a crazy thing. Come on Tri, give me a break.. The fact that Severson is 20 years old and stepped onto the top pairing out of camp, while demonstrating the ability to play against the top players on other teams and not look out of place should tell you what you need to know about him. I'm not saying this to be a dick, but do people understand just how difficult it is to do what Severson has done here? I mean, people get just how much more difficult it is to play defense at the NHL level right? The fact that the kid has been steady and consistent on the top pair at 20 years old is not only rare, it's unheard of. Now- think of where he'll be at 23. And then 25. That's why you don't trade a guy like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 It's not a dick move. How is it a dick move to say 'I'd rather stay here'. He has the right in his contract. Maybe he's going to retire after the season. Maybe there's extenuating reasons for him wanting to stay in NJ that you don't know about. Either way, it isn't a dick move - it's unfortunate, but I don't think a player has an obligation to waive an NTC. He came off a season where he was 21st in D scoring and took the same amount of money. You don't think he could've done better than $4M on the open market with $1M in bonuses? Dan Boyle got 2/9. Zidlicky wanted to stay here. Lou gave him the NTC so he should be able to exercise it, and that's on Lou. It's still a dick move to use it at the end of the season where, at most, you'll be away for an extra three months, and you'd be playing for a contender, almost necessarily. (And you take out the time that you'd be playing on the road anyway). If people get on him, it'll remind me of Leafs fan turning against Sundin and Kaberle for not wanting to be traded. I know you have to vent somewhere, but it be a shame for Zidlicky to get the brunt of it. Sundin deserved all of the flak he got for it. At least it wasn't like Zidlicky where he was on a one year deal and the GM should have known at the time that it was a 50/50 shot that the team wouldn't be in contention. And Sundin actually signed with another team the following year and Toronto could have gotten probably a better return than Zidlicky could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeControl Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 we are coming up on the easiest part of our schedule over the next 12-13 games. how much that effects lou's mindset I don't know. but I have a feeling lou is coaching for pride and reputation and wants to win as many of these as he can to prove some BS concept of his. and that would be tragic and short sighted almost selfish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog2020 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) we are coming up on the easiest part of our schedule over the next 12-13 games. how much that effects lou's mindset I don't know. but I have a feeling lou is coaching for pride and reputation and wants to win as many of these as he can to prove some BS concept of his. and that would be tragic and short sighted almost selfish Lou stresses team, always... It would be the height of irony and hypocrisy for him to put himself before the future of the organization. I sincerely hope that's not the case here. Edited February 16, 2015 by MadDog2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Severson is a top pairing D already. Not 'if everything works out'. That's where we differ in opinion - Severson will have to go backwards to not be a top pairing D. Weber's copious ice time may be screwing with things - sadly I think this is one of those things we'll never be able to figure out, but at least in basketball I think it's been shown to have large effects, so I'll grant that it might here - but he's just never been a top play driver. Nashville doesn't do much better with him on the ice, and that's even when adjusting for zone starts, and that's been largely true for his whole career. It's not a dick move. How is it a dick move to say 'I'd rather stay here" Agreed. Just because you want him gone doesn't mean he wants to go. if my company wanted me to uproot my family and relocate to an office in another state, I wouldn't want to do it either. I also don't have a problem with the fact that he has a NTC. A lot of veterans do, if they have a good agent they all should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Lou gave him the NTC so he should be able to exercise it, and that's on Lou. It's still a dick move to use it at the end of the season where, at most, you'll be away for an extra three months, and you'd be playing for a contender, almost necessarily. (And you take out the time that you'd be playing on the road anyway). Sundin deserved all of the flak he got for it. At least it wasn't like Zidlicky where he was on a one year deal and the GM should have known at the time that it was a 50/50 shot that the team wouldn't be in contention. And Sundin actually signed with another team the following year and Toronto could have gotten probably a better return than Zidlicky could. the It's not a dick move - it's in his contract. That's why it's there. And it's Sundin's right to do that as well. I wouldn't like it if I'm a Toronto fan and I won't like it as a Devil fan if Zidlicky says he's staying, but there's absolutely no reason he has to agree to leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Agreed. Just because you want him gone doesn't mean he wants to go. if my company wanted me to uproot my family and relocate to an office in another state, I wouldn't want to do it either. I also don't have a problem with the fact that he has a NTC. A lot of veterans do, if they have a good agent they all should. But he's not being asked to uproot anything. (And I'm not even sure that his family has relocated to NJ). He'd be away for three or four months then he's free to move back or go wherever. And in all likelihood, if he still wants to play in the NHL, he'll have to sign somewhere else next year anyway. So if your company asked you to do something like that with the understanding that you'd get paid the same amount (maybe even more if he gets some kind of playoff/Cup bonus) and that it would be better for the company in the longrun if you did, then it would be a dickish thing to refuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLL765 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) We have no more reason to believe Severson will be a star than we do Drouin. Calling Severson a 1D after 30 games in his rookie season is a joke. I'm not rooting against the guy, trust me - but take off your homer glasses for a minute, give me a break. And uh, yeah you can name a bunch of D prospects and claim the Devils have "depth" in the talent pool - that's exactly what prospect depth is. The Devils have a solid group of young defensemen in the system that could hopefully pan out to a solid core some day. There's absolutely nothing inaccurate about that statement. The REALLY good reason, this hypothetical example, is that you can acquire a game-breaking offensive talent, something that the Devils sorely lack and will not acquire in any other way (especially since they ruined their chance at a top-3 pick this season). And I don't think it's foolish to consider an opportunity where you improve a severe weakness by dealing from a position of strength. ...I'm wasting my time here. We're just going to have to agree to disagree, because, IMO, you're talking nonsense. The Islanders seem to be the obvious solution for some of our veteran guys with families. And then on the other end of the spectrum, there's Jagr. Wonder what his primary motivation is right now. Yes we do. Severson is already a top 4 defenseman at 20 years old. He looks to have all the tools to be an offensive threat to the tune of 35+ points per season as well and I really see him as potentially being a consistent .5+ppg type defenseman that may even top 50 points in his prime since he's already pumping out more than 2.5 shots per game. He could easily be an elite defenseman. Drouin might be an elite forward as well, but given the choice between a potentially elite defenseman and a potentially elite forward, you take the defenseman 100 times out of 100. They're much harder to identify and develop. Trading Severson would basically take away our only bonafide star prospect and leave us with, at best, a potentially solid all around, but not spectacular defense corps in the future. On top of that, we could quite possibly find an elite forward talent in the draft this year too. Right now, without a shadow of a doubt, Severson is a more valuable player than Drouin. I would not trade him for anything pretty much. If someone offers a high 1st+blue chip forward prospect and a decent roster player, I'd ponder it, but it better be something like a top 10 1st rd pick+Ryan Strome type young forward+scoring RW. That would nearly fix our offense in one fell swoop. Outside of that, it's not worth it for me. Lastly, what we have is a quality prospect pool on defense, not depth. Depth is what we might have if Severson, Merrill and Larsson all reach their potential and one or more of Santini, Scarlett, Hrabarenka and Jacobs becomes an NHL defenseman as well. That would then be depth. We need NHL depth, not prospect depth before trading away major assets is wise. Edited February 16, 2015 by ATLL765 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 It's not a dick move - it's in his contract. That's why it's there. And it's Sundin's right to do that as well. I wouldn't like it if I'm a Toronto fan and I won't like it as a Devil fan if Zidlicky says he's staying, but there's absolutely no reason he has to agree to leave. http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/e/election-script-transcript-reese-witherspoon.html So is this a moral situation or an ethical situation? What's the difference between morals and ethics anyway? Anybody? Derek. Yeah. Ethics is like when you do what society tells you is right to do. And morals... Yeah, yeah, you're on the right track. Can anybody help him out? Michelle. Morals are like... Iessons. You know, like the moral of a story. It's what you learn from a story or a fable. Or a life experience. Good. And ethics? Um, ethics is how you use the morals that you learn from the story? Yeah, OK, but I think we're missing something key here. What are we missing? Tracy. Ethics are rules of conduct-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Weber's copious ice time may be screwing with things - sadly I think this is one of those things we'll never be able to figure out, but at least in basketball I think it's been shown to have large effects, so I'll grant that it might here - but he's just never been a top play driver. Nashville doesn't do much better with him on the ice, and that's even when adjusting for zone starts, and that's been largely true for his whole career. HAHAHAHAHAHA of course, Tri just looking at stats and making ridiculous statement based strictly on it. Well if there was EVER an example of you strictly looking at stats to make assumptions here's one. Omg... look at the fvcking guy PLAY for god sakes, the guy is a beast and can do it all in all zones, he can score, fight, block shots, hit and fvck you up, he's huge, he's fast and he's a good leader. Give me a break with your stats. He's playing in the top division in the NHL and against top lines and has been for years. Saying Weber hasnt shown anything that would make him a star player other than his shot... absolutely ridiculous. You're a robot. Edited February 16, 2015 by SterioDesign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLL765 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) HAHAHAHAHAHA of course, Tri just looking at stats and making ridiculous statement based strictly on it. Well if there was EVER an example of you strictly looking at stats to make assumptions here's one. Omg... look at the fvcking guy PLAY for god sakes, the guy is a beast and can do it all in all zones, he can score, fight, block shots, hit and fvck you up, he's huge, he's fast and he's a good leader. Give me a break with your stats. He's playing in the top division in the NHL and against top lines and has been for years. Saying Weber hasnt shown anything that would make him a star player other than his shot... absolutely ridiculous. You're a robot. That's true, but he's definitely seemed to struggle since Suter left. He hasn't had a positive CF%rel since Suter signed with Minnesota and his CF% has hovered right around break even, which is Marc Staal territory. He just is a much better offensive threat compared to Staal. This year in particular he's looked weak. Nashville has a CF% of 54.8% when he's not on the ice, but a 49.6% when he's on the ice. Good for a -5.2CF%rel. Edited February 16, 2015 by ATLL765 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 But he's not being asked to uproot anything. (And I'm not even sure that his family has relocated to NJ). He'd be away for three or four months then he's free to move back or go wherever. And in all likelihood, if he still wants to play in the NHL, he'll have to sign somewhere else next year anyway. So if your company asked you to do something like that with the understanding that you'd get paid the same amount (maybe even more if he gets some kind of playoff/Cup bonus) and that it would be better for the company in the longrun if you did, then it would be a dickish thing to refuse. I have a family, I wouldn't necessarily agree to go away for 3-4 months, especially since there is zero guarantee he'd be back. Asking the team to fulfill its obligations under the contract that they offered you and signed isn't a dick move, that's why you sign a contract in the first place. By your logic, anyone asked to waive a NTC who refuses is a dick, because obviously any time they look to trade a player they are looking to do so for the betterment of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLL765 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 That's true, but he's definitely seemed to struggle since Suter left. He hasn't had a positive CF%rel since Suter signed with Minnesota and his CF% has hovered right around break even, which is Marc Staal territory. He just is a much better offensive threat compared to Staal. This year in particular he's looked weak. Nashville has a CF% of 54.8% when he's not on the ice, but a 49.6% when he's on the ice. Good for a -5.2CF%rel. To add to this, let me compare him to Drew Doughty. Doughty has a CF%rel of 3.9 this year and a CF% of 57.1. He's had a positive CF%rel since 2009-10 and the only year where the team was even close to being better with him off the ice was 2011-12 where his CF%rel was just 0.6 and even then his CF% was still 55.4. The last time he was below the break even point was 2008-09 where he had a 49.5 CF% and had a CF%rel of -1.9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 HAHAHAHAHAHA of course, Tri just looking at stats and making ridiculous statement based strictly on it. Well if there was EVER an example of you strictly looking at stats to make assumptions here's one. Omg... look at the fvcking guy PLAY for god sakes, the guy is a beast and can do it all in all zones, he can score, fight, block shots, hit and fvck you up, he's huge, he's fast and he's a good leader. Give me a break with your stats. He's playing in the top division in the NHL and against top lines and has been for years. Saying Weber hasnt shown anything that would make him a star player other than his shot... absolutely ridiculous. You're a robot. I haven't watched much of Nashville this year. I have never been impressed with Shea Weber's ability to pass the puck. I don't give a sh!t if he can fight, shot blocking is hardly a valuable skill, nor is hitting, nor is being huge, and if Shea Weber's fast, so is Dainius Zubrus. Weber to me is good positionally, he has an amazing shot, and he's a good guy to have on your PP. Take away that shot - give him an average one - and I don't think he's in my top 20 D. He's a valuable player, because that shot is responsble for a lot of goals, and he's a top-pair D who doesn't get beat, but he's not a top pair D who beats the other team. He's not Scott Stevens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I have a family, I wouldn't necessarily agree to go away for 3-4 months, especially since there is zero guarantee he'd be back. Asking the team to fulfill its obligations under the contract that they offered you and signed isn't a dick move, that's why you sign a contract in the first place. By your logic, anyone asked to waive a NTC who refuses is a dick, because obviously any time they look to trade a player they are looking to do so for the betterment of the team. My logic suggests no such thing. If there's a long time left on your deal, and you were being traded to someplace where you truly did have to uproot your life it would be a different story. Sort of like if the Devils decided to trade someone like Mike Cammelleri right now, or say Schneider in the middle of next year when his NTC kicks in. In this case, Zidlicky would be traded with a month and a half left in the regular season on the last year of his deal as he's playing for a team that will not make the playoffs, where it could mean a lot to the team if he waived the clause. True, he has a right to invoke it even in these circumstnaces, it doesn't mean though that he isn't a dick for doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 There was a nice piece written on Weber a while back that broke his game down real well and how he and Suter complemented eachother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLL765 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 My logic suggests no such thing. If there's a long time left on your deal, and you were being traded to someplace where you truly did have to uproot your life it would be a different story. Sort of like if the Devils decided to trade someone like Mike Cammelleri right now, or say Schneider in the middle of next year when his NTC kicks in. In this case, Zidlicky would be traded with a month and a half left in the regular season on the last year of his deal as he's playing for a team that will not make the playoffs, where it could mean a lot to the team if he waived the clause. True, he has a right to invoke it even in these circumstnaces, it doesn't mean though that he isn't a dick for doing it. I wouldn't call him a dick for not waiving it. It's his right. It was negotiated as part of his contract and he has every right to not waive it. You're right about how it wouldn't really mean he'd have to uproot his family. At most he'd be away from home for 4 months and that's really not all that terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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