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Devils Trade Deadline Thread


Derlique
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No, there isn't.   There are many more star defenseman than players who look like stars in their initial NHL games but then don't become them.

 

Exactly my point only in reverse. Severson has played too few games to be judged really good. Quite a few players have good first years and then slump downward especially in their second year. I recall this board being pretty high on Eric Gelinas last year. All this second year has done is expose him as a defensive liability.

I'm not down on Severson, I'm just saying we should take a wait and see approach before we start lauding him so highly.

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Short term fixes often aren't just short time fixes. They give you time to make trades or develop players. Its why so many teams have had success with quick rebuild or turnarounds. Vancouver was suppose to tank this year, Calgary as well.

Edited by Jas0nMacIsaac
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Exactly my point only in reverse. Severson has played too few games to be judged really good. Quite a few players have good first years and then slump downward especially in their second year. I recall this board being pretty high on Eric Gelinas last year. All this second year has done is expose him as a defensive liability.

I'm not down on Severson, I'm just saying we should take a wait and see approach before we start lauding him so highly.

 

Oh please, we knew Gelinas sucked at defense last year, and we know again this year.

 

Secondly, it's not 'lauding' it's making an assessment based on observation. 'Severson is going to be a star player' is an honest (and accurate) assessment.

Edited by Neb00rs
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You don't know what 'replacement level' means (it means at the level of a player that can be gotten for free at any time) and you don't know what a 4th line center is.  Travis Zajac is still a very good player.  He just doesn't belong on an NHL power play first unit or a first line.

 

To defend Daniel, "replacement level" is the standard average player at the position (at least in baseball when calculating WAR).  I've never heard of "replacement level player" terminology in hockey.

 

Daniel is 1000% right when using that term for the Devils.  They are chock full of players near the average (or below).  Most of the team is filled with players who are not worth additional "wins" for the team by having them in the lineup.

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To defend Daniel, "replacement level" is the standard average player at the position (at least in baseball when calculating WAR).  I've never heard of "replacement level player" terminology in hockey.

 

Daniel is 1000% right when using that term for the Devils.  They are chock full of players near the average (or below).  Most of the team is filled with players who are not worth additional "wins" for the team by having them in the lineup.

 

This is a common misconception but that's not what replacement level means.  Replacement level means a player who is available for free.  It has always meant this in the calculation of VORP and now WAR.  Wins Above Replacement measures how many wins a player is responsible for - a replacement player is responsible for 0, by definition.  Players can be worse than replacement level - last year Fangraphs identified 146 MLB players who had 502 plate appearances.  Of these, 4 players were more than 1 win below replacement (Jay Bruce, Allen Craig, Matt Dominguez, Domonic Brown).  If it were the average player, this would be significantly higher.

 

There aren't numbers to determine replacement level in hockey - and the existence of goons who are way below replacement level would fvck everything up anyway - but there's definitely a replacement level.  Zubrus is the only forward I would think NJ has that is below replacement level right now.  Maybe Havlat.  Gionta could be next year.  I agree that there are plenty of average and below average players.

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To defend Daniel, "replacement level" is the standard average player at the position (at least in baseball when calculating WAR). I've never heard of "replacement level player" terminology in hockey.

Daniel is 1000% right when using that term for the Devils. They are chock full of players near the average (or below). Most of the team is filled with players who are not worth additional "wins" for the team by having them in the lineup.

I know what replacement level is. And if you want to say Zajac is better than that, fine, but not by any amount that really matters. He's one of the most overrated players in the league, and incidently at least one player we got off the scrap heap is better than him and another isn't that far behind.

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Trade deadline is over. We still Gomez, Tootoo, Bernier, Ryder, Ruutu, Gelinas and Havlet.

IMO at the deadline there are teams that are winners and losers. The Devils are losers by any standard.

At least we got something for two UFAs, usually we get nothing. (History)

 

Here's how I see it:

 

Returns on Jagr and Zids:  under the circumstances (especially with Zids), I think Lou did pretty well.  Not in a "OMG what awesome fleece-jobs" kind of way, but pretty well

Tootoo, Bernier, Gomez:  Lou wants to get an extended look at all of them, to decide whether or not any of them fit into next year's plans.  He'd rather do that than get 4th-7th rounders for them

Havlat and Ryder:  I think it's something as simple as no one really wanted them.  Even if they were gone, Lou wouldn't have gotten much back, and not sure if it makes much sense bringing in an underwhelming Matteau and Boucher up.  Seems like both of them could use more time in the AHL. 

 

I don't really think of the Devils as winners or losers at this deadline...Lou got what he could for his two biggest available deadline assets, which is what we all wanted to see and I think absolutely had to happen.  Sure, would've been great if some other players were moved, but with the returns not likely to be anything special, I'm not crushed that additional deals weren't made.  I think most Devils fans are somewhere between mildly happy and mildly disappointed...better than extremely disappointed, really.    

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Tell me, in your eyes, what could Lou have done today that would have satisfied you (trades or statements)?

he could haver traded  Gomez, Ryder, Bernier and Havlat for picks ( and BTW i love Gomez and wanted him signed at camp!, ) And incase you do not know me, i have been screaming for 4 years that this team needs to get younger and every year we get older & older & older... half our fwrds have AARP cards its insane!!   right now he's the coach, why are Ryder & Havlat not playing every single game up to the trade dealine? maybe then he could have traded them... instead he sits them 90% of the games and noone will touch them.

 

with the exception of finding a way to trade for kesel or JVR I doubt I would have been happy with anything LL did, although trading those listed above for picks probabkly would have kept me quiet until the free agency.

 

LL has put together an awful roster .. 3 straight year of no playoffs and you are going to defend him?? IMHO that enough reason for me to replace him.

 

 

Tell me in yours eyes what does LL need to do for you to admit what an awful job he has done!!

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Oh please, we knew Gelinas sucked at defense last year, and we know again this year.

 

Secondly, it's not 'lauding' it's making an assessment based on observation. 'Severson is going to be a star player' is an honest (and accurate) assessment.

 

Why you gettin' all angry? I'm just explaining why I disagree and am withholding judgement.

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Here's how I see it:

 

Returns on Jagr and Zids:  under the circumstances (especially with Zids), I think Lou did pretty well.  Not in a "OMG what awesome fleece-jobs" kind of way, but pretty well

Tootoo, Bernier, Gomez:  Lou wants to get an extended look at all of them, to decide whether or not any of them fit into next year's plans.  He'd rather do that than get 4th-7th rounders for them

Havlat and Ryder:  I think it's something as simple as no one really wanted them.  Even if they were gone, Lou wouldn't have gotten much back, and not sure if it makes much sense bringing in an underwhelming Matteau and Boucher up.  Seems like both of them could use more time in the AHL. 

 

I don't really think of the Devils as winners or losers at this deadline...Lou got what he could for his two biggest available deadline assets, which is what we all wanted to see and I think absolutely had to happen.  Sure, would've been great if some other players were moved, but with the returns not likely to be anything special, I'm not crushed that additional deals weren't made.  I think most Devils fans are somewhere between mildly happy and mildly disappointed...better than extremely disappointed, really.

CR you don't think he should play AHL players from here on out. They could get some experience. I am not convinced with Boucher and Matheau if they are NHLers.

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he could haver traded  Gomez, Ryder, Bernier and Havlat for picks ( and BTW i love Gomez and wanted him signed at camp!, ) And incase you do not know me, i have been screaming for 4 years that this team needs to get younger and every year we get older & older & older... half our fwrds have AARP cards its insane!!   right now he's the coach, why are Ryder & Havlat not playing every single game up to the trade dealine? maybe then he could have traded them... instead he sits them 90% of the games and noone will touch them.

 

with the exception of finding a way to trade for kesel or JVR I doubt I would have been happy with anything LL did, although trading those listed above for picks probabkly would have kept me quiet until the free agency.

 

LL has put together an awful roster .. 3 straight year of no playoffs and you are going to defend him?? IMHO that enough reason for me to replace him.

 

 

Tell me in yours eyes what does LL need to do for you to admit what an awful job he has done!!

 

So in other words, you wanted him to trade Bernier and Gomez for basically nothing, when Lou may want to re-sign them and when we may need them next year. And you are angry at him for not trading Ryder or Havlat, two players that no team in the league wanted, aside from maybe one or two offering 7th round picks?

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CR you don't think he should play AHL players from here on out. They could get some experience. I am not convinced with Boucher and Matheau if they are NHLers.

 

I think they need more AHL seasoning.  Neither is overwhelming in Albany, and both players are still pretty young (Boucher will be 22 at the start of next season, Matteau 21).  I think you wait and give them a shot to make the team out of preseason next season.  They have enough youth on their side that I don't think they need to be rushed up.  I don't have a ton of faith in either player, but I don't think we'll get much of an answer as to their NHL futures by playing them in the next 19 games or so. 

 

If anything, I might bring up one of the AHL oldster forwards for the hell of it (Thompson (26), Whitney (27) or Sislo (27)), even though there's probably not much point in it. 

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he could haver traded  Gomez, Ryder, Bernier and Havlat for picks ( and BTW i love Gomez and wanted him signed at camp!, ) And incase you do not know me, i have been screaming for 4 years that this team needs to get younger and every year we get older & older & older... half our fwrds have AARP cards its insane!!   right now he's the coach, why are Ryder & Havlat not playing every single game up to the trade dealine? maybe then he could have traded them... instead he sits them 90% of the games and noone will touch them.

 

with the exception of finding a way to trade for kesel or JVR I doubt I would have been happy with anything LL did, although trading those listed above for picks probabkly would have kept me quiet until the free agency.

 

LL has put together an awful roster .. 3 straight year of no playoffs and you are going to defend him?? IMHO that enough reason for me to replace him.

 

 

Tell me in yours eyes what does LL need to do for you to admit what an awful job he has done!!

 

No offense to you, but who are we trading to get either one of these players?  It's easy to say, go get these guys, but this isn't NHL '15 where you can put the trade settings on easy mode and pick them up for a 3rd and Stephen Gionta.  Either trade would have surely required us to include our 1st round pick from this year or next, which a team that is in full "transition" (a/k/a rebuild) mode just doesn't do, especially with the chance (however small it may be) of getting to select an all world talent like McDavid. 

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No offense to you, but who are we trading to get either one of these players?  It's easy to say, go get these guys, but this isn't NHL '15 where you can put the trade settings on easy mode and pick them up for a 3rd and Stephen Gionta.  Either trade would have surely required us to include our 1st round pick from this year or next, which a team that is in full "transition" (a/k/a rebuild) mode just doesn't do, especially with the chance (however small it may be) of getting to select an all world talent like McDavid. 

I donot disagree with you, just trying to define my furstration w/ LL and the type of blockbuster he would have to make to change my opinion, which is years in the making, not just rustration over the trade deadline....

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