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Colon didn't make much sense for the Mets from the time he was signed...been through that already.  That was one of the major downsides of Harvey being out for 2014.

 

Yeah, I have no idea what the plan is for the starting rotation.  Unless someone gets hurt in spring training (can't ever rule that out), you gotta figure Harvey, Wheeler, Niese, deGrom, and Colon are locks.  I'm sorry, but Colon is really getting in the way at this point...I know he's a pretty good innings guy (Niese feels like a roll-of-the-dice, as far as his health goes), but I really want to see Montero or Syndergaard get a real shot to make the team out of spring training, and not by pitching out of the bullpen.  Do Montero and Syndergaard really need more time in the PCL?  

 

 

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You probably already know this by now, but Syndergaard will make his major-league debut Tuesday against the Cubs.   Hoping it's the last we see of Dillon Gee in the Mets' rotation.  Nothing against

It's probably a case of Sandy overplaying his hand, again. Gee is hardly reliable and not particularly great when he is healthy. He's not young. I've long expected a swap of a reliever and bench player for him to a back-end starter-needy team and I still think that happens between now and Opening Day. I really don't buy the idea of him in the bullpen; I don't think he profiles very well there, I doubt he wants to be there, and the Mets have enough starter depth that he really shouldn't be the next option/6th starter anyway.

 

I rather have Colon than Gee. He's older and more expensive but I think he's simply better all things equal and it's not exactly clear that the cash saved by trading Colon would have any substance at this point in the offseason anyway -- and that's before you even figure in the small sum the Mets would need to eat to dump Colon. Dumping Colon to make room for Montero or Syndergaard is another story, however, but given pitcher attrition and all that sh!t I'm not sad he's still here.

Edited by nmigliore
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Honestly it's fine with me they changed it to Shea dimensions...Shea was always fair, slightly leaning toward a pitcher's park.  Probably too late to help David Wright though :P  The ballpark screwed him up far more than the 2006 home run derby nonsense.  He had a bad second half that year but had fine seasons in '07 and '08.

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It's probably a case of Sandy overplaying his hand, again. Gee is hardly reliable and not particularly great when he is healthy. He's not young. I've long expected a swap of a reliever and bench player for him to a back-end starter-needy team and I still think that happens between now and Opening Day. I really don't buy the idea of him in the bullpen; I don't think he profiles very well there, I doubt he wants to be there, and the Mets have enough starter depth that he really shouldn't be the next option/6th starter anyway.

 

I rather have Colon than Gee. He's older and more expensive but I think he's simply better all things equal and it's not exactly clear that the cash saved by trading Colon would have any substance at this point in the offseason anyway -- and that's before you even figure in the small sum the Mets would need to eat to dump Colon. Dumping Colon to make room for Montero or Syndergaard is another story, however, but given pitcher attrition and all that sh!t I'm not sad he's still here.

 

I'm curious why don't you think Gee profiles well for the pen. He seems to be the type of guy who starts off pretty well and at least cruises through the first 3 innings. I think that maybe points to him being able to have some success in a long reliever role?

 

Granted if we can get a nice super-sub for him. Like a Justin Turner type...would make that trade in a heartbeat

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I'm not a big fan of moving Gee to the pen as a long guy because the Mets already have a guy who can fill that role if needed in Carlos Torres.  He's been pretty solid the last two seasons (though his walks were up last year).

 

Not saying Gee should be a lock for the rotation though...he really should be squeezed out of NY due to numbers (unless the Mets' arms just get slammed with injuries over the next few weeks).  nmig is probably right...Gee will likely be almost given away during spring training when someone else inevitably loses an arm.  His trad numbers look decent from an eye-test, but he's injury-prone and just not all that great, and metrics aren't kind to him.  He's not going to bring back much.       

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Looks like the Mets won't be in on this guy:

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/12277232/mlb-eliminates-requirement-cuban-players-obtain-us-license-yoan-moncada-cleared-sign

 

It's mildly irritating only because Sandy is always so damned passive and probably wouldn't pursue him even if the Mets really needed him (he seems to save his energy and money for seemingly "huh?" targets like Granderson, Colon, and Cuddyer), but they have some SS bodies in the system:

 

Matt Reynolds - had a big year seemingly out of nowhere in AA and AAA last season (could've been due to high BABIP in both leagues, and we know what the PCL does to hitting numbers).  Unless Flores takes the SS job and runs with it, wouldn't be surprised to see him up with the big boys at some point this season if he keeps raking in Vegas.  Who knows what he'll do at the major-league level though?

 

Amed Rosario - this is the kid the Mets are very high on for the future...they signed him two years ago out of the Dominican Republic.  He just turned 19 in November.  He finished last year in Savannah.  None of his numbers wow, but it's way too early to make much of anything he's done to this point, and he was a baby last year.  Probably at least one-and-a-half seasons away in an absolute best-case scenario, but a 2017 call-up (if there's room for him) would likely be the earliest we would see him.

 

There's others in the system, but I posted these two because Reynolds is the closest to making it, and Rosario seems to be the guy the Mets are highest on for the future.  Would still like to see them consider Moncada, but it's not going to happen.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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Supposedly there was like a 50% tax on that kid (i.e. if you pay $30 million for his contract you'd have to pay another $30 million in tax).  I don't know why that's the case or know for sure if it's true but if it is then I can see that being a total non-starter for the Wilpons :P

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Fatso on the WFAN and others supposedly feel that Collins is toast if the Mets stumble out of the gate.  I'm not a TC guy by any stretch (I think it's a joke that he's still here...the guy is not a real manager), but who the hell would replace him if the Mets go that route?  Would Sandy dare consider Wally Backman (in spite of the general feeling that Sandy isn't a big Wally fan)?

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Wally I worry would implode on the major league level where the salaries and egos are far greater.

 

Collins is a JAG (just another guy manager) not the worst I've seen but not the type to really inspire a team to the next level. Really we should be able to do better than him but they seem to be somewhat comfortable with him here. Amazing that he's about to enter year 5. He'll likely pass Gil Hodges this year as 3rd winningest manager in Mets history.

 

If Collins has this team playing lax meh baseball than Backman could work as a 1/2 season sparkplug. But he doesn't strike me as a long term solution. He's 55 and yet to manage a single major league game with anyone. Lots of red flags with Wally.

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Wally is definitely a risk...it's more where else could the Mets possibly go if Collins is canned?  Is a guy like Geren going to make much difference?

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Wally is definitely a risk...it's more where else could the Mets possibly go if Collins is canned?  Is a guy like Geren going to make much difference?

 

no way. Geren is the same milquetoast nobody as Collins...as Manuel. As Art Howe. But Geren probably appeals to the Wilpons since they won't have to sign a new manager to a new contract. Just move someone else on up

 

Would I go to the Valentine well again? I might. Would at least explore it. But that ship may have sailed. And I would even look at bringing in 72 year old Davey for a short term run if this team was truly "ready made" to win right away. But they're not

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no way. Geren is the same milquetoast nobody as Collins...as Manuel. As Art Howe. But Geren probably appeals to the Wilpons since they won't have to sign a new manager to a new contract. Just move someone else on up

 

Would I go to the Valentine well again? I might. Would at least explore it. But that ship may have sailed. And I would even look at bringing in 72 year old Davey for a short term run if this team was truly "ready made" to win right away. But they're not

 

It's not even the Wilpons vis-a-vis the manager.  All the Moneyball guys think the manager is just a stooge for the suits upstairs.  That's why you'll never see any big-name or big personality manage here as long as Sandy or one of his disciples is running the show.

 

I don't really get wrapped up in the whole TC thing cause it'll just be another faceless, nameless guy like Geren replacing him anyway.

Edited by NJDevs4978
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No to Valentine.  He just seems like he's more trouble than he's worth at this point...he was a complete trainwreck with the Red Sox.  I think he peaked with the Mets' WS appearance. 

 

The problem with Bobby V is that he needs to have "disciples" to succeed...the guy can find talent and guys who will go through fire for him.  I just don't think he'll have that here. 

 

NJDevs4978 is probably right...if Mets get off to a 10-15 start or something like that, it will be Bob Geren because he's a nonentity and because he won't cost the Wilpons much money.  But it's not like there's a lot of choices out there...it's probably either Wally (who's probably not a real option in the Mets' eyes to begin with) or Geren.

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Yankees retiring not one, not two, but THREE numbers this season:  Andy Pettitte's 46, Bernie Williams' 51, and Jorge Posada's 20.

 

Yes, this does seem to be excessive, and feels like it's further cheapening the whole number retirement thing, as far as the Yankees go.  Jeter is an obvious candidate and a deserving one...once his number joins the others, the Yankees will have exactly 21 numbers retired.  At the rate they're going, can it be argued that Paul O'Neill and Tino Martinez are also worthy? 

 

I'm curious how Yankee fans feel about this.  There's no arguing that all three were terrific players (though none were truly great:  Pettitte was a good pitcher who clearly benefitted from playing on some great teams and who admitted using PEDs, Williams had some warts (mostly lousy baserunning), and Posada wasn't a particularly good defensive catcher).  But the problem is when the "fringe line" keeps shifting, then those arguably ever-so-slightly less-worthy guys (like O'Neill and Martinez) suddenly become part of the conversation. 

 

I know all three were important parts of the Yankees' last run of championships, but it's just weird to see guys like Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra...and then guys like Pettitte, Williams, and Posada. 

 

And on the other end of the spectrum with the Mets...it's easy to wonder why there isn't another number or two up there, but what player other than Seaver is really that worthy?  I think part of the problem is that their most memorable players (Piazza, Carter, Hernandez, among others) spent considerable chunks of their careers establishing themselves with other teams...the Mets got guys like this in their primes, but with only so many prime years left; that being said, #8, #17, and #31 (along with #24) are no longer issued by the Mets (though none are officially retired).  Gooden would've been worthy if he had stayed clean, but having witnessed his career and the way he let down the Mets several times with relapses (and he wasn't always honest with them about his issues), it's really hard to make a case for Gooden getting his number retired.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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Yankees retiring not one, not two, but THREE numbers this season: Andy Pettitte's 46, Bernie Williams' 51, and Jorge Posada's 20.

Yes, this does seem to be excessive, and feels like it's further cheapening the whole number retirement thing, as far as the Yankees go. Jeter is an obvious candidate and a deserving one...once his number joins the others, the Yankees will have exactly 21 numbers retired. At the rate they're going, can it be argued that Paul O'Neill and Tino Martinez are also worthy?

I'm curious how Yankee fans feel about this. There's no arguing that all three were terrific players (though none were truly great: Pettitte was a good pitcher who clearly benefitted from playing on some great teams and who admitted using PEDs, Williams had some warts (mostly lousy baserunning), and Posada wasn't a particularly good defensive catcher). But the problem is when the "fringe line" keeps shifting, then those arguably ever-so-slightly less-worthy guys (like O'Neill and Martinez) suddenly become part of the conversation.

I know all three were important parts of the Yankees' last run of championships, but it's just weird to see guys like Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra...and then guys like Pettitte, Williams, and Posada.

And on the other end of the spectrum with the Mets...it's east to wonder why there isn't another number or two up there, but what player other than Seaver is really that worthy? I think part of the problem is that their most memorable players (Piazza, Carter, Hernandez, among others) spent considerable chunks of their careers establishing themselves with other teams...the Mets got guys like this in their primes, but with only so many prime years left; that being said, #8, #17, and #31 (along with #24) are no longer issued by the Mets (though none are officially retired). Gooden would've been worthy if he had stayed clean, but having witnessed his career and the way he let down the Mets several times with relapses (and he wasn't always honest with them about his issues), it's really hard to make a case for Gooden getting his number retired.

If there's one team where it doesn't look quite so ridiculous it's the Yankees, albeit it's still a bit much. I suppose what helps is that there are kind of two tiers -- having a monument for players like Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle -- and just having a plaque and a number retired -- Mattingly, Bernie, etc.

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Yankees are helped by their history (clearly it's both long, storied and highly successful).  What makes it all murky is that, as the retirement bar is set lower, you can start going into the past and wondering about guys like Red Ruffing (who oddly wore four numbers in his Yankee tenure, but wore #15 for most of it).  He went 231-124 for the Yankees and pitched complete games in 261 out of his 391 Yankee starts and went 7-2 in 10 World Series starts.  Why not him?  Allie Reynolds was an ace for the Yanks in his eight seasons there and went 7-2 in his 15 World Series appearances (including nine starts, with five CGs and two SO).  By today's standard, isn't he also worthy?  You've already got Reggie Jackson in for five seasons. 

 

Not trying to kill the Yankees here, just saying that I'm not sure these latest three were worthy of jersey retirement.  I think I would've drawn the line at Rivera and Jeter for this generation. 

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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Pettitte, fine...steroids thing and all he was a very good pitcher for a very long period of time for the Yankees. Wasn't GREAT for long enough stretches to make him legendary but was a major cog in that machine. Same with Bernie Williams. He was a low key, solid, quiet, consistent contributor and all around likeable guy (I like Bernie a lot more than Jeter). Posada I would draw the line at. He batted down in that lineup, was a .270 career hitter, and basically had nothing to do with the 1996 world series. Good player, but he was helped by the immense talent around him. Maybe like the Randy McKay of those Yankee teams

 

Also, let's not forget the whole Steiner Sports - Attendance angle. The Yankees can now push their merchandise all year as they did with Jeter last season. They now have 3 solid sellout dates. Dirty little secret is the Yankees played to a lot of empties last year (and as a Mets fan I'm not one to talk since our problems are worse) but 3 jersey retirements of 3 very popular players will generate a lot of buzz

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As for Piazza, not sure what the holdup is. Clearly there isn't any sort of rift between him and the Wilpons otherwise he wouldn't have been back for Mike Piazza day last year. It could be about something we don't know of yet (sometimes players have demands associated with a number retirement, remember Trottier wanted to extort $ from the Islanders just to be at the ceremony, though I'd hate to characterize Piazza as that type of guy) nonetheless there could be some back channel wrangling going on

 

The one number I would've never have retired is Stengels. He was here for 4 years and once rode on the field in a chariot....so? I really haven't spoken to a mets fan young or old who has much nostalgia for him.

 

Hodges I'm fine with. He was the manager of our first WS team, died while he was still manager at only 47.

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Honestly with Mike I think the Mets wait is the same issue as the HOF wait, all the innuendo and rumors. I think when (if?) Mike gets enshrined the Mets will officially retire the number then. They might not be issuing 17 now but I remember Luis Lopez wearing it at one point. We also know 5 is going to be retired in the distant future especially since unlike the Mets other homegrown stars it does look like David will finish his career here or close enough, and not have a Darryl/Doc type scandal black mark.

With the Yankees, I understand there's a mystique about 'The Core Four' but that doesn't mean they should all get their number retired. Especially when the Yankees have so many numbers retired already, the standards for a number retirement should only get harder at that point, not easier. Yet ironically they're not retiring Torre's number and he does deserve it. So there's clearly politics involved.

Edited by NJDevs4978
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Pettitte, fine...steroids thing and all he was a very good pitcher for a very long period of time for the Yankees. Wasn't GREAT for long enough stretches to make him legendary but was a major cog in that machine. Same with Bernie Williams. He was a low key, solid, quiet, consistent contributor and all around likeable guy (I like Bernie a lot more than Jeter). Posada I would draw the line at. He batted down in that lineup, was a .270 career hitter, and basically had nothing to do with the 1996 world series. Good player, but he was helped by the immense talent around him. Maybe like the Randy McKay of those Yankee teams

 

Also, let's not forget the whole Steiner Sports - Attendance angle. The Yankees can now push their merchandise all year as they did with Jeter last season. They now have 3 solid sellout dates. Dirty little secret is the Yankees played to a lot of empties last year (and as a Mets fan I'm not one to talk since our problems are worse) but 3 jersey retirements of 3 very popular players will generate a lot of buzz

 

Here's my issue...players who will have their jerseys retired from this Yankee surge:

 

Jeter

Rivera

Pettitte

Posada

Williams

 

Want to give Pettitte, Posada, and Williams plaques, and each one of them their own day at the park, I'm ok with that.  To me, if you retire Pettite's, Posada's, and Williams' numbers, then you have to retire O'Neill's as well (he was a key transitional building block as Yankees became competitive again).  That's why I would've drawn the line at Jeter and Rivera...make the number retirement special again, an ultimate honor that is really hard to get.  It's like I said...it's gotten to the point where now you wonder how some other old-timers don't deserve to have their numbers retired too.  The Yankees have set the bar too low, and that's not to knock these three guys one bit.   

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This subject made my mind drift over to the Hall of Fame.

 

You know Beltran is definitely going in. He's on his last legs now (would be shocked if he finished this season NOT on the DL)

 

His Mets stats edge out his Royals stats. He's going into the hall with a Mets hat on.

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This subject made my mind drift over to the Hall of Fame.

 

You know Beltran is definitely going in. He's on his last legs now (would be shocked if he finished this season NOT on the DL)

 

His Mets stats edge out his Royals stats. He's going into the hall with a Mets hat on.

 

I'll never think of him as a Hall-Of-Famer, but his numbers are H-O-F worthy (especially for a CF), and thanks in part to those two monster series he had in the 2004 playoffs, his playoff numbers also pass the eye test.  And he's a sabermetrician's wet dream.

 

Yeah, hard to think he's not going in.  I wonder if he even wants to go in as a Met.  That's now no longer up to the players, correct?  Due to some guys wanting to go in with certain hats based on, er, "outside motivation".

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