"Transition, not a Rebuild" 15-16 Thread and Beyond

[TheMazz]

But then who is playing in goal?

 

PRO: We draft Horvat or Domi and Marty to STL never happens. We get a top center, Marty retires as a Devil and we transition to Kinkaid who has been holding his own so far. Also Having Marty would of probably gained us some top draft picks for the pro-tankers and he probably ends up at 700 wins as well.

 

CON: We have no way in ever knowing if Kinkaid as starter would be any less than a giant bust, much less if the Devils would of drafted Horvat, Domi or Nish. If they went off the board, drafting a scrub and the trade NEVER happened? We would of been set back for ages.

 

Barring the results of the potential Kinkaid experiment, I could have seen a situation where the Devils could of signed Niemi in this coming offseason or another goalie earlier on.

 

There are a lot of variables with not trading for Cory though. I'm not saying we didn't make the right call, but the "what ifs" are interesting. We would of probably been more in the McEchiel race if we took Domi or Horvat, I would imagine and having one of those two plus a def top 5 pick would of solved the foward prospect issue.

Edited February 23, 2015 by TheMazz

[Daniel]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/02/22/bruin-ken-belanger-finds-life-after-hockey/CsBzozRSkecDil5QRiW5wK/story.html?

 

 

 

Loose pucksChatter around the league pegs New Jersey as a franchise that could seek a new general manager. Lou Lamoriello is in his 28th season at the Devils’ helm. They have good young pieces in Cory Schneider and Adam Henrique. But too much of the roster has gone gray

[SterioDesign]

Yeah its all true i guess we could have kept the pick and sign a goalie like Miller who's been playing fine. But god knows if we could have signed him. 

 

On the other hand, without getting Cory, we'd be a LOT closer to be getting McDavid this year lol

 

so on one hand we'd have another goalie and Kinkaid... and we'd have a better pick and a better forward...

 

oh well... i do like that we don't have a question mark in net though. I think it was a worthy gamble at the time.

 

 

***Take notes that i'm not crucifying Lou on EVERYTHING and that im blindly hating, here im saying it was a worthy gamble that had to be done and even though we could have been better off somehow, i think it was a good move. 

Edited February 23, 2015 by SterioDesign

[thecoffeecake]

based on lou's description of the rebuild only a few teams have had to rebuild in history, the kent state football team and that KHL team two years ago. OK so its a transition, we transition our lines down one knotch. and find 3 top forwards/scorers for our first line

That was pretty dark

[DJ Eco]

PRO: We draft Horvat or Domi and Marty to STL never happens. We get a top center, Marty retires as a Devil and we transition to Kinkaid who has been holding his own so far. Also Having Marty would of probably gained us some top draft picks for the pro-tankers and he probably ends up at 700 wins as well.

 

CON: We have no way in ever knowing if Kinkaid as starter would be any less than a giant bust, much less if the Devils would of drafted Horvat, Domi or Nish. If they went off the board, drafting a scrub and the trade NEVER happened? We would of been set back for ages.

 

You balance it out pretty well and pretty fairly. My one biggest point to make, which you hint at in the CONS, is who knows who the hell Conte or Lou would've drafted with the 9th pick. I don't think it would've been Horvat (not many people pegged Horvat to go that early). Who knows though, really, we'll never know.

 

My biggest bone to pick with you regarding your PROS is that still, once Marty gets 700, and we tank and get some high draft pick, even then, who knows who Lou would pick that early? And then, what we have is 2015-2016 with Kinkaid and Clemmenson (or Bryzgalov) as our backup?..... The schedule and responsibility of being a starter was big shoes for Schneider to even get adjusted to the first two months. I can't imagine Kinkaid.

Edited February 23, 2015 by DJ Eco

[Devilsfan118]

PRO: We draft Horvat or Domi and Marty to STL never happens. We get a top center, Marty retires as a Devil and we transition to Kinkaid who has been holding his own so far. Also Having Marty would of probably gained us some top draft picks for the pro-tankers and he probably ends up at 700 wins as well.

 

CON: We have no way in ever knowing if Kinkaid as starter would be any less than a giant bust, much less if the Devils would of drafted Horvat, Domi or Nish. If they went off the board, drafting a scrub and the trade NEVER happened? We would of been set back for ages.

 

Barring the results of the potential Kinkaid experiment, I could have seen a situation where the Devils could of signed Niemi in this coming offseason or another goalie earlier on.

 

There are a lot of variables with not trading for Cory though. I'm not saying we didn't make the right call, but the "what ifs" are interesting. We would of probably been more in the McEchiel race if we took Domi or Horvat, I would imagine and having one of those two plus a def top 5 pick would of solved the foward prospect issue.

 

Hindsight's 20-20 - but I'd almost prefer the alternative you're speaking about.  It seems like there's little sense in having a top-tier goalie when the rest of the team is garbage.  It's counterproductive to a rebuild (sorry - a 'transition').

[vadvlfan]

We need  to clarify (I'm not alone) in thinking whether it's rebuild or transition, our scouting dept needs new "thinking".  Lou listens to them  let's these guys make  the decisions. He has to, they're in the trenches supposedly.  I'm wondering if Lou staying away from Ruskies, and the Teddy's/Boucher's of the world (smaller statured guys).

Our scouting dept needs updating for sure.

However, he's probably talking to Don Maloney about rights to Tikanov (sp) right about now. 

[Louismydad]

They weren't a very good defensive team when they had Suter and Weber. That's the point he is trying to make. They're better now defensively than when they had Suter. Part of that is the forwards being better, but part of that is also the defense - they're not using Kevin Klein as a 2nd pairing D man anymore. They have more depth there.

The rags seem just fine while doing just that with klein. lol just sayin Edited February 23, 2015 by Louismydad

[themightyall]

I was never a really big fan of the Cory trade.  When you see Bishop going for Conacher and a 4th, or Bernier going to Scrivens Frattin and a 2nd, it seemed like an overpayment to me to give up the 9th pick.

 

Trade Deadline:  Regardless, moving from this point forward is this is about.  I'm more in favor of Lou's mentality than most of you probably because there is something to be said about the discipline and mentality that the Devils create in their players.  If all of a sudden Lou starts treating them like cattle, trading them for assets, that gets eroded.  Don't get me wrong, if Jagr wants out, trade him.  If Zid wants out, trade him.  But the more players that get traded, the more it hurts the culture of the team.  And is it worth it to hurt the culture for an extra 2nd rounder?

 

Off season:  The forwards need to be upgraded.  Everyone knows that.  But hitting on the high pick that can play now that can grow into a first liner, signing a couple of right wingers that don't blow up like Ryder or Brunner did with maybe a small trade could have us in the playoffs with a bright future.  For example:

 

Cam - Zajac - Justin Williams

Henrique - Elias - Trade

Ruutu - Draft Pick - Free Agent

Zubrus - Josefson - Gionta

 

Greene - Larsson

Merrill - Severson

Helgeson - Gelinas

 

Cory

 

Now, the question is if Lou still has it in him to make these sort of moves.  I think he does.

[Louismydad]

I was never a really big fan of the Cory trade. When you see Bishop going for Conacher and a 4th, or Bernier going to Scrivens Frattin and a 2nd, it seemed like an overpayment to me to give up the 9th pick.

Trade Deadline: Regardless, moving from this point forward is this is about. I'm more in favor of Lou's mentality than most of you probably because there is something to be said about the discipline and mentality that the Devils create in their players. If all of a sudden Lou starts treating them like cattle, trading them for assets, that gets eroded. Don't get me wrong, if Jagr wants out, trade him. If Zid wants out, trade him. But the more players that get traded, the more it hurts the culture of the team. And is it worth it to hurt the culture for an extra 2nd rounder?

Off season: The forwards need to be upgraded. Everyone knows that. But hitting on the high pick that can play now that can grow into a first liner, signing a couple of right wingers that don't blow up like Ryder or Brunner did with maybe a small trade could have us in the playoffs with a bright future. For example:

Cam - Zajac - Justin Williams

Henrique - Elias - Trade

Ruutu - Draft Pick - Free Agent

Zubrus - Josefson - Gionta

Greene - Larsson

Merrill - Severson

Helgeson - Gelinas

Cory

Now, the question is if Lou still has it in him to make these sort of moves. I think he does.

On the Cory topic, i might be wrong but im under the impression that there were better offers on the table from teams such as edmonton. i might be wrong though

[Devil Dan 56]

On the Cory topic, i might be wrong but im under the impression that there were better offers on the table from teams such as edmonton. i might be wrong though

Supposedly Edmonton was very upset because they offered a better package but Vancouver didn't want Cory in the division

[ATLL765]

We need to clarify (I'm not alone) in thinking whether it's rebuild or transition, our scouting dept needs new "thinking". Lou listens to them let's these guys make the decisions. He has to, they're in the trenches supposedly. I'm wondering if Lou staying away from Ruskies, and the Teddy's/Boucher's of the world (smaller statured guys).

Our scouting dept needs updating for sure.

However, he's probably talking to Don Maloney about rights to Tikanov (sp) right about now.

I doubt that. Tikhonov will be a ufa on July 1st, so if Lou is interested, might as well wait. Might be an interesting pickup if he'll take a shorter term deal at a reasonable price.

[Mike Brown]

Lou knows what he's doing.

[BostonNala370]

Lou knows what he's doing.

Really, and you know that how?

[DJ Eco]

Trade Deadline:  Regardless, moving from this point forward is this is about.  I'm more in favor of Lou's mentality than most of you probably because there is something to be said about the discipline and mentality that the Devils create in their players.  If all of a sudden Lou starts treating them like cattle, trading them for assets, that gets eroded.  Don't get me wrong, if Jagr wants out, trade him.  If Zid wants out, trade him.  But the more players that get traded, the more it hurts the culture of the team.  

 

I know what you're saying and under most circumstances I'd agree with you.

 

But right now, the culture of the team is that of a country club. Guys like Havlat and Ryder can't understand why they're not being played? Zubrus is still a regular in the lineup? The play of young guys like Larsson and Schneider are the only things keeping this team alive on a night-by-night basis? The young and quick Jacob Josefson's stuck in metaphorical hockey purgatory on the 4th line? If you're 32 and above, you're automatically given the benefit of the doubt?

 

We need to really CHANGE the culture honestly. Let the younger guys know they're the future; Henrique, Larsson, Merrill, Schneider, Josefson, I'll even throw Zajac in there as he's recently 29. 

 

Even post-DeBoer, guys like Tootoo and Harrold (32 and 31) have been given more opportunities than Josefson or Gelinas have been given in their couple/several years here.

 

Screw it. Dismantle this mess, I don't care if we've gotten 4 wins in a row for the first time in 2 years. That stat alone is enough reason to just throw this roster away and sell.

[sundstrom]

I know what you're saying and under most circumstances I'd agree with you.

 

But right now, the culture of the team is that of a country club. Guys like Havlat and Ryder can't understand why they're not being played? Zubrus is still a regular in the lineup? The play of young guys like Larsson and Schneider are the only things keeping this team alive on a night-by-night basis? The young and quick Jacob Josefson's stuck in metaphorical hockey purgatory on the 4th line? If you're 32 and above, you're automatically given the benefit of the doubt?

 

We need to really CHANGE the culture honestly. Let the younger guys know they're the future; Henrique, Larsson, Merrill, Schneider, Josefson, I'll even throw Zajac in there as he's recently 29. 

 

Even post-DeBoer, guys like Tootoo and Harrold (32 and 31) have been given more opportunities than Josefson or Gelinas have been given in their couple/several years here.

 

Screw it. Dismantle this mess, I don't care if we've gotten 4 wins in a row for the first time in 2 years. That stat alone is enough reason to just throw this roster away and sell.

 

i don't particularly love this roster either, but I'm not killing them on who's in and who's out and where they are in the lineup.

 

there is no bigger fan of josefson than me and he's being played exactly where he should - 4th line and PK. the fact remains that he has absolutely zero scoring ability. he didn't have it in the SEL and he has never shown it in the NHL.

 

why get mad about tootoo? he hasn't been awful and there just aren't really better alternatives unless you want to go with boucher who has had a terrible season.

 

gelinas sat for a while until they finally realized that fraser is hot garbage and now gelinas is getting a chance (although getting hurt last night didn't help him). otherwise, there's no alternative to harrold.

 

i don't think there's anyone here that doesn't want to sell off as much as possible. I think it's imperative that they lose the next two games to eliminate any shadow of a doubt from Lou's mind otherwise we might all be very disappointed.

 - there's no question that if anyone wants Ryder, they can have him. You don't think Lou's done everything but put him on waivers? He'd give him away for free if he could.

 - i very much think jagr will be dealt. the way he's being used and what they're getting out of him has proven that as long as you get a 2nd round pick or interesting forward prospect, you should deal him. if you can't get that, i can understand holding him just because there is still value to him on the team from a merchandising/ticket sales perspective and that doesn't mean nothing.

 - gomez is intriguing. with kreicji's injury, its conceivable there's a spot there for him. you want gomez in a "top-6" role - by that i mean not being relied on for defense and put with offensive minded players. as a 4-6 week stopgap for a team like boston? he makes sense.

 - bernier's done enough that there may be a bit of a market for him but certainly not much.

[DJ Eco]

I agree with you on all counts sundstrom. I guess it's not the individual players/situations themselves that bother me. I mean, Tootoo and Bernier have performed admirably this season for example. It's just the sum of all the parts that bothers me. I'm ready to turn the page, let's gut this team, can't really take this team (the way it's set up) anymore, even when we win. Keep Cammalleri and Elias obviously as phenomenal veterans to emulate and to teach the kids coming up, but I'm ready for about 2/3 of this team to be moved if it ends up happening. I'd be thrilled.

Edited February 24, 2015 by DJ Eco

[sundstrom]

I agree with you on all counts sundstrom. I guess it's not the individual players/situations themselves that bother me. I mean, Tootoo and Bernier have performed admirably this season for example. It's just the sum of all the parts that bothers me. I'm ready to turn the page, let's gut this team, can't really take this team (the way it's set up) anymore, even when we win. Keep Cammalleri and Elias obviously as phenomenal veterans to emulate and to teach the kids coming up, but I'm ready for about 2/3 of this team to be moved if it ends up happening. I'd be thrilled.

 

tootoo and bernier aren't really the problem. the problem is that they're playing top 6 roles and that doesn't happen on a good team.

 

if you're bottom two lines are:

 

ruutu-elias-bernier

tootoo-josefson-gionta

 

you can win with that. but you need a MUCH better top 6. truthfully, only cammelleri is a first line forward.

 

cammelleri - xxxxx - yyyyy

henrique - zajac - zzzzzz

ruutu-elias-bernier

tootoo-josefson-gionta

 

that's really what the devils are missing. finding x, y & z are not easy at all and the devils do NOT have these players anywhere in their system. maybe they hit the lottery and can draft player x. maybe they draft y or z instead and he miraculously is sean monehan off the hop. but i don't see a UFA that fits any of those roles. I mean, perhaps Zuccarello can be player z but i don't like that idea at all.

 

the hope is that Lou can swindle at the deadline for assets that can be parlayed into one of those slots. nothing they could trade will yield someone that fills those roles next year. this of course is going on the assumption that bernier and tootoo come back next year.

Edited February 24, 2015 by sundstrom

[DJ Eco]

tootoo and bernier aren't really the problem. the problem is that they're playing top 6 roles and that doesn't happen on a good team.

 

Yup ^^ Words out of my mouth. And yeah, I guess my problem really lies with Lou; it's easy to take it out on the players, but he's the mastermind who constructed this roster.

Edited February 24, 2015 by DJ Eco

[Triumph]

The thing about Bernier and Tootoo both being back here next year is that neither guy can play any other position and neither should be playing above the 4th line.  You've probably got to pick one.  The Devils can't be fooled into thinking that Steve Bernier is a solution for them at RW - he's a nice player and I'm glad for him that he's having a bounceback season, but Randy McKay he isn't.

[themightyall]

tootoo and bernier aren't really the problem. the problem is that they're playing top 6 roles and that doesn't happen on a good team.

 

if you're bottom two lines are:

 

ruutu-elias-bernier

tootoo-josefson-gionta

 

you can win with that. but you need a MUCH better top 6. truthfully, only cammelleri is a first line forward.

 

cammelleri - xxxxx - yyyyy

henrique - zajac - zzzzzz

ruutu-elias-bernier

tootoo-josefson-gionta

 

that's really what the devils are missing. finding x, y & z are not easy at all and the devils do NOT have these players anywhere in their system. maybe they hit the lottery and can draft player x. maybe they draft y or z instead and he miraculously is sean monehan off the hop. but i don't see a UFA that fits any of those roles. I mean, perhaps Zuccarello can be player z but i don't like that idea at all.

 

the hope is that Lou can swindle at the deadline for assets that can be parlayed into one of those slots. nothing they could trade will yield someone that fills those roles next year. this of course is going on the assumption that bernier and tootoo come back next year.

 

That's not much different than what I had, just a matter of time.  X is my 3rd liner because you don't just give young players time, you want them to earn it.  I know a lot of people say "Play the kids" but if the kid can't earn the time, he shouldn't get it.  15/16 the rookie is a 3rd liner, 16/17 supplants Elias and in 17/18 supplants Zajac.  Parise played on the 4th line when he finally got to the NHL.

 

So we need to hit on a couple of RWs.  Justin Williams is a great role player that puts the puck in the net especially in the clutch.  I'd love him at the Z but he may be a 1st liner here.

 

Boiling it down, this is still a transition though because it's not like we need to draft core players for years like the Sabres.  We just need to finally hit on a forward prospect and a free agent.

[sundstrom]

That's not much different than what I had, just a matter of time. X is my 3rd liner because you don't just give young players time, you want them to earn it. I know a lot of people say "Play the kids" but if the kid can't earn the time, he shouldn't get it. 15/16 the rookie is a 3rd liner, 16/17 supplants Elias and in 17/18 supplants Zajac. Parise played on the 4th line when he finally got to the NHL.

So we need to hit on a couple of RWs. Justin Williams is a great role player that puts the puck in the net especially in the clutch. I'd love him at the Z but he may be a 1st liner here.

Boiling it down, this is still a transition though because it's not like we need to draft core players for years like the Sabres. We just need to finally hit on a forward prospect and a free agent.

I would be very wary of justin Williams. That ha bad idea jeans written all over it.

[Zubie#8]

Steve Bernier on the third line woth Tootoo on the fourth wouldn't be too terrible Tri. We need to find centers and two top right wings over the next two seasons.

[Triumph]

Steve Bernier on the third line woth Tootoo on the fourth wouldn't be too terrible Tri. We need to find centers and two top right wings over the next two seasons.

 

It's pretty bad.  Even if you include this season, Bernier's points/60 are 312th out of a qualified 338 forwards over the span between 2011-12 and now.  He's a 4th line player.  I mean, I'd have him back again in the same role he had this year - 5th RW - but I doubt after scoring 10 goals that he's going to want to sign up for that.

[Zubie#8]

What are the alternatives? The free agent crop is not great whatsoever.