Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Lou saying he had better offers for Zid, but Zid picked Detroit. that's what NMCs do to you. That is why you get a list of teams you would accept, then that scenario doesn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 That is why you get a list of teams you would accept, then that scenario doesn't happen. How would that help? Would Zid put a team on a list he'd approve if on a list but that he wouldn't approve if verbally asked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 That is why you get a list of teams you would accept, then that scenario doesn't happen. Sure it does. If that list is one team long, same thing happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Sure it does. If that list is one team long, same thing happens. I doubt it is one team long. Detroit couldn't have been the only team he wanted to go to. I doubt he wanted Canada however, nobody wants that tax rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevils11274 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Im glad to see him go. Get something pick wise to help the future. He has done some good things for us but I deff wont miss him missing the puck on the point all the time and failing to keep it in the zone. Especially on the pp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) I doubt it is one team long. Detroit couldn't have been the only team he wanted to go to. I doubt he wanted Canada however, nobody wants that tax rate. It might have been by the time Lou was finally ready to trade him with Severson all of a sudden out of mothballs, and only after some of the deals the last few days. We'll never really know how much Lou 'coaching' factored into his questionable deadline but it probably did factor some. Edited March 2, 2015 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neb00rs Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a type of NTC where the player can pick a list of ten teams or whatever, that he will not accept a trade to? I thought that was what JMI was referring to? I too think this is preferable. As the system stands, teams hardly have the power to trade any name player anymore. The player trades himself. Edited March 2, 2015 by Neb00rs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a type of NTC where the player can pick a list of ten teams or whatever, that he will not accept a trade to? I thought that was what JMI was referring to? I too think this is preferable. As the system stands, teams hardly have the power to trade any name player anymore. The player trades himself. Yes, partial NTCs. IE Clarkson had a list of 11 teams he'd accept a trade to and Columbus was one of those. Many players have these. They're obviously the better version of these clauses, but some guys could have demands like a full NTC to sign at a particular place. Its clear Lou's hands were tied here. He did what he could. Its not a stretch to think Zid didn't want to go at all. His family is in NJ. If say Anaheim or LA was a team offering more, he may not have wanted to go that far from NJ. We just don't know what the offers were or what Zidlicky was willing to accept. IMO its impossible to blame Lou or him for anything. He got something for a pending UFA at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) It might have been by the time Lou was finally ready to trade him with Severson all of a sudden out of mothballs, and only after some of the deals the last few days. We'll never really know how much Lou 'coaching' factored into his questionable deadline but it probably did factor some. Why? Lou's duties as coach are basically that during games he isn't in his box. He doesn't seem to have any other major role being coach. He's not on-ice during practice (he was in 05-06 and 06-07, he isn't now). I don't see what impact this would've had. Edited March 2, 2015 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neb00rs Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Yes, partial NTCs. IE Clarkson had a list of 11 teams he'd accept a trade to and Columbus was one of those. Many players have these. They're obviously the better version of these clauses, but some guys could have demands like a full NTC to sign at a particular place. Its clear Lou's hands were tied here. He did what he could. Its not a stretch to think Zid didn't want to go at all. His family is in NJ. If say Anaheim or LA was a team offering more, he may not have wanted to go that far from NJ. We just don't know what the offers were or what Zidlicky was willing to accept. IMO its impossible to blame Lou or him for anything. He got something for a pending UFA at least. Yeah Lou definitely got locked up here. JMI had just said that lists would prevent this from happening. As far as I can tell, he was referring to the partial NTC, which obviously (or at least probably) would have prevented this type of situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 No simply ask Zidlicky what teams he would be willing to waive a no trade clause for and negotiate with those teams. It maybe a small list but it also saves time negotiating and wasting effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neb00rs Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) No simply ask Zidlicky what teams he would be willing to waive a no trade clause for and negotiate with those teams. It maybe a small list but it also saves time negotiating and wasting effort. Oh, well in that case, yeah, when Zidlicky goes, "Detroit, or nothing" we are back to square one. Actually that probably is exactly what Lou did. Lou probably told Zids "These are the teams calling about you, which ones are you willing to go to?" And Zids probably responded "Detroit, period." I don't think Lou was off negotiating with teams Zidlicky wouldn't accept a trade to. He simply received other offers. Edited March 3, 2015 by Neb00rs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) Oh, well in that case, yeah, when Zidlicky goes, "Detroit, or nothing" we are back to square one. Actually that probably is exactly what Lou did. Lou probably told Zids "These are the teams calling about you, which ones are you willing to go to?" And Zids probably responded "Detroit, period." I don't think Lou was off negotiating with teams Zidlicky wouldn't accept a trade to. He simply received other offers. You have to think other teams in the east (not montreal) were interested in Zidlicky. A right handed puck moving defensmen who has played well in the playoffs. A two situation player as well. The problem is, once you give him an option of teams he can very easily just pick one and squash a trade to Boston or Florida. Edited March 3, 2015 by Jas0nMacIsaac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 You have to think other teams in the east (not montreal) were interested in Zidlicky. A right handed puck moving defensmen who has played well in the playoffs. A two situation player as well. The problem is, once you give him an option of teams he can very easily just pick one and squash a trade to Boston or Florida. His NTC doesn't involve a trade list. He therefore has no reason to submit one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas0nMacIsaac Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 His NTC doesn't involve a trade list. He therefore has no reason to submit one. it would be worth a try, or at least have the conversation to get a sense of where he would go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neb00rs Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 You have to think other teams in the east (not montreal) were interested in Zidlicky. A right handed puck moving defensmen who has played well in the playoffs. A two situation player as well. The problem is, once you give him an option of teams he can very easily just pick one and squash a trade to Boston or Florida. I think the point here is that once you have a full NTC in a players contract, these things are going to happen no matter what you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonNala370 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 BN370, just because you were expecting something doesn't mean it was there for the taking. At least Zids waived his NTC and allowed Lou to get something for him. You'd be bitching a lot more if he was still on the team.[/quote CR did you read my post or just jump down my throat? Read the last paragraph p!ease. Are you the defender of Lou drinking his kool aid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonNala370 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 ame="BostonNala370" post="1308393" timestamp="1425366115"] goddammit he's back Not sure I know what you mean but reading your posts today regarding the Zidlicky trade you weren't so happy with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonNala370 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The 'drinking the kool aid' narrative is so played out. I was unhappy with the Zidlicky return and very surprised with the Jagr return, it all evens out. I agree with you re the Jagr trade. I don't think we can average them out however, each trade must stand on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 BN370, just because you were expecting something doesn't mean it was there for the taking. At least Zids waived his NTC and allowed Lou to get something for him. You'd be bitching a lot more if he was still on the team. CR did you read my post or just jump down my throat? Read the last paragraph p!ease. Are you the defender of Lou drinking his kool aid? I read your whole post. Did you read mine? Where did I go out of my way to defend Lou on the return? If anything, I gave Zids kudos for at least giving Lou a chance to get something for him...Zids held all of the cards here. But you start off your post complaining about the return based on what YOU thought Lou should've been able to get, then go on about how each aspect of the trade is not good, then how Lou is now a poor negotiator, but you end it with a backhanded compliment. All of which is based on the fact that you thought Lou was supposed to have gotten more than he did, despite the fact that he clearly was not fully in control of this trade scenario. And if Zids was still here, yeah, I think a lot of people (you included) would be bitching over various things: How could Zids be so selfish as to not waive his NTC when the Devils need him to, how could Lou give him one in the first place...or if Lou is so good, why couldn't Lou somehow convince Zids to waive his NTC clause, etc. With the Lou-bashing crowd, all complaints would've led back to Lou no matter what if Zids was still a Devil at 3:01 pm yesterday. Yes, it would've been awesome if Lou could've gotten a guaranteed 2nd-rounder or a little more. But it's a bit more difficult when the player you're trying to move can turn down any team he wants to, and when the team that's dealing for him knows they might be the ONLY team he's willing to go to. Lou and the Devils had the least leverage here. Under the circumstances, I think he did OK...not awesome, but OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonNala370 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I read your whole post. Did you read mine? Where did I go out of my way to defend Lou on the return? If anything, I gave Zids kudos for at least giving Lou a chance to get something for him...Zids held all of the cards here. But you start off your post complaining about the return based on what YOU thought Lou should've been able to get, then go on about how each aspect of the trade is not good, then how Lou is now a poor negotiator, but you end it with a backhanded compliment. All of which is based on the fact that you thought Lou was supposed to have gotten more than he did, despite the fact that he clearly was not fully in control of this trade scenario. And if Zids was still here, yeah, I think a lot of people (you included) would be bitching over various things: How could Zids be so selfish as to not waive his NTC when the Devils need him to, how could Lou give him one in the first place...or if Lou is so good, why couldn't Lou somehow convince Zids to waive his NTC clause, etc. With the Lou-bashing crowd, all complaints would've led back to Lou no matter what if Zids was still a Devil at 3:01 pm yesterday. Yes, it would've been awesome if Lou could've gotten a guaranteed 2nd-rounder or a little more. But it's a bit more difficult when the player you're trying to move can turn down any team he wants to, and when the team that's dealing for him knows they might be the ONLY team he's willing to go to. Lou and the Devils had the least leverage here. Under the circumstances, I think he did OK...not awesome, but OK. Your correct about what would have been said if Zid was still here. As for Zid controlling everything we will never know how involved Zid was unless Zid speaks out. Example, Boston was in a big need for D help. They didn't get anyone, fans unhappy there. Like I said at least he is gone and we got something for him. We still have Ryder & Havlet. No team wanted Gomez, Tootoo or Bernier? Is Lou still thinking playoffs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 (edited) What we do know is Zids had the final say on any move involving him. We don't know if Boston had any interest in him, or were willing to offer as much as Detroit did. Sounds like Detroit might've offered the 3rd-rounder straight up, then Lou found a way to squeeze a little extra out of them (it's ironic in a way...it's almost as if Detroit is saying "Sure, here's our second-rounder...it's not like we're going to the Finals anyway...no, we mean, well..."). I don't know what Lou is thinking. Only Lou does. On the surface it sounds like he's trying to cover all bases...makes a move that clearly signals "White flag", but still talking postseason. The guess here (and that's all it is...a guess) is that low-roundish returns didn't interest Lou re: Gomer, Tootoo, and Bernier (I do think he wants to see more of them...I think he's considering bringing at least two of them back), and that Ryder and Havlat didn't garner much interest, if any. Like Tri said, Havlat looks finished, and like dr33 said, the Devils didn't do too much to pump up Ryder's value by scratching him game after game (some will get on the three-headed monster for this). GMs looking to improve their teams at the deadline have to be thinking "Wait...these guys couldn't crack the lineup on a bad team? How are they going to make my team better? Even if I can get them for almost free, should I even bother?" Edited March 3, 2015 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonNala370 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 What we do know is Zids had the final say on any move involving him. We don't know if Boston had any interest in him, or were willing to offer as much as Detroit did. Sounds like Detroit might've offered the 3rd-rounder straight up, then Lou found a way to squeeze a little extra out of them (it's ironic in a way...it's almost as if Detroit is saying "Sure, here's our second-rounder...it's not like we're going to the Finals anyway...no, we mean, well..."). I don't know what Lou is thinking. Only Lou does. On the surface it sounds like he's trying to cover all bases...makes a move that clearly signals "White flag", but still talking postseason. The guess here (and that's all it is...a guess) is that low-roundish returns didn't interest Lou re: Gomer, Tootoo, and Bernier (I do think he wants to see more of them...I think he's considering bringing at least two of them back), and that Ryder and Havlat didn't garner much interest, if any. Like Tri said, Havlat looks finished, and like dr33 said, the Devils didn't too much to pump up Ryder's value by scratching him game after game (some will get on the three-headed monster for this). GMs looking to improve their teams at the deadline have to be thinking "Wait...these guys couldn't crack the lineup on a bad team? How are they going to make my team better? Even if I can get them for almost free, should I even bother?" Good points CR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Eco Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I agree with you re the Jagr trade. I don't think we can average them out however, each trade must stand on its own. In a perfect world, yes, but the reality of the situation is, I'd be fuming if Zidlicky were on the team today. We're in the rare position, I think, where no deal is worse than an "ehhh" deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The 'condition' could have at least been a little less. Detroit has very little chance of making the Finals.I don't know about very little. They're gonna have to go through Tampa and Montreal, but I'm not sure "very little" is accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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