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Elias not happy on the 4th line


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I don't know, I think he's playing with arguably the least talented linemates. Maybe Ruutu can argue Jo and Harrold is worse but I think Zubrus and Gio are the worst because of Zubrus. So maybe not

Parise only signed the one year deal for the express purpose of showing other teams he was healthy so he could land the big payday. He had no intention of staying here, it just would make no sense to

 

 

There may be some malcontent in the room with the jettisoning of Jagr, Zidlicky, and soon Havlat.  Elias is seeing his "Czech Mate" group being dismantled, and he may not like that too much...

 

my thoughts to, but i never thought he had any chem with jagr or took him as offensive and now hes trying to get some of his fire; play angry.

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He has stunk this season. Plain and simple.

Maybe he would be happier on one of the third lines we have, oh wait..

You know what, as much as I hate to say it, I agree. I know he doesn't have the best linemates and I know what he's meant to this team for more than a decade, but now - I cringe everytime he has the puck on his stick. His decision-making skills are highly questionable on far too many occasions. I'm not sure what his advanced stats are, but merely from the eye-test over the past few months, he doesn't merit top-two line minutes. And please Mr. Elias, no more behind-the-back passes.

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You know what, as much as I hate to say it, I agree. I know he doesn't have the best linemates and I know what he's meant to this team for more than a decade, but now - I cringe everytime he has the puck on his stick. His decision-making skills are highly questionable on far too many occasions. I'm not sure what his advanced stats are, but merely from the eye-test over the past few months, he doesn't merit top-two line minutes. And please Mr. Elias, no more behind-the-back passes.

 

(All Corsi stats ZS adj. by -10 sec.) His 5v5 CF%RelTM is the third highest on the team, behind only Josefson and Severson. He is also 2nd among forwards on the team in 5v5 CF% at  48.2% (Josefson at 50.6%). Given that he plays tougher situations and heavier minutes than Josefson (at least up until lately), I'd say Elias is still quite possibly the best puck control forward on the team. HIs linemate Zubrus might be the worst.

Edited by Neb00rs
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Don't know why we're treating this like an issue. Elias gave an honest answer like he's always done. Chere asked a stupid question, like he always does lately. The team sucks at forward, which we already knew. This isn't news.

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(All Corsi stats ZS adj. by -10 sec.) His 5v5 CF%RelTM is the third highest on the team, behind only Josefson and Severson. He is also 2nd among forwards on the team in 5v5 CF% at  48.2% (Josefson at 50.6%). Given that he plays tougher situations and heavier minutes than Josefson (at least up until lately), I'd say Elias is still quite possibly the best puck control forward on the team. HIs linemate Zubrus might be the worst.

Agree good post with facts

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Patty has not been relegated to 4th line status. Cammeleiri has been a 3rd liner for quite a while. Chere's trying to create something that doesn't exist.

 

But, ladies and gentlemen, this is indicative of how forwards will be used in the future. The "way' we played (IMO) exposed Philly's shortcomings on D and how effective.  Maybe Oates/Stevens combo will continue on?

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Something that's kind of interesting about Elias is that I think there's a general feeling of "He's not what he once was, he's been declining, etc."  But his last five seasons (not including this one), from a pure points-per-game standpoint, have been on par with his career rate:

 

Career:  .835

2009-2014:  .832

 

This is actually pretty impressive, in that not only is Patrik aging, but also in that no matter who his linemates are, or what the state of the team is, Patrik has found a way put up respectable offensive numbers. 

 

High shooting%s in 2011-12 (15.9%) and 2013-14 (15.5%) have helped to hide declining shot totals.  His career shots-per-game rate is 2.67 (career high was 3.66). 

 

Shots per game the last six seasons (including this one):

 

2009-2010:  2.5

2010-2011:  2.52

2011-2012:  2.02

2012-2013:  2.46

2013-2014:  1.78

2014-2015:  1.61

 

Of course, the headline and the way Chere writes can mislead if you're skimming or zeroing in on certain quotes, but based on overall recent history, I can understand why Patrik feels he might have more left offensively, and if his future is to center guys like Zubrus and Gionta, why he may not want to stick around.  I can also understand why Patrik might be in "No more what's best for the team, I'm doing what's best for ME mode."  He may be on his last contract, and time is running out.  He has always tried to do what's best for the team, even when the team didn't always do what was best for him (not saying a team should over-cater to any one player, but one can argue that Patrik wasn't always put in the best position to succeed at times).  Yeah, he's getting paid big bucks and more than what he's currently worth, but if the Devils made him available, he probably fetches a 2nd-rounder and another pick, especially if the Devils pick up some of that remaining money.  So yeah, I think that Lou needs to figure out exactly what he's doing with Patrik in 2015-16, and they're not in agreement, I think Lou has to move him.  Some will lament that Patrik won't have played his entire career with the Devils, but I don't think it's that big of a deal...if Elias plays a year or two elsewhere, so be it.  He'll be remembered as a Devil and all of his prime years and most memorable ones were spent here.      

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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Something that's kind of interesting about Elias is that I think there's a general feeling of "He's not what he once was, he's been declining, etc." But his last five seasons (not including this one), from a pure points-per-game standpoint, have been on par with his career rate:

Career: .835

2009-2014: .832

This is actually pretty impressive, in that not only is Patrik aging, but also in that no matter who his linemates are, or what the state of the team is, Patrik has found a way put up respectable offensive numbers.

High shooting%s in 2011-12 (15.9%) and 2013-14 (15.5%) have helped to hide declining shot totals. His career shots-per-game rate is 2.67 (career high was 3.66).

Shots per game the last six seasons (including this one):

2009-2010: 2.5

2010-2011: 2.52

2011-2012: 2.02

2012-2013: 2.46

2013-2014: 1.78

2014-2015: 1.61

Of course, the headline and the way Chere writes can mislead if you're skimming or zeroing in on certain quotes, but based on overall recent history, I can understand why Patrik feels he might have more left offensively, and if his future is to center guys like Zubrus and Gionta, why he may not want to stick around. I can also understand why Patrik might be in "No more what's best for the team, I'm doing what's best for ME mode." He may be on his last contract, and time is running out. He has always tried to do what's best for the team, even when the team didn't always do what was best for him (not saying a team should over-cater to any one player, but one can argue that Patrik wasn't always put in the best position to succeed at times). Yeah, he's getting paid big bucks and more than what he's currently worth, but if the Devils made him available, he probably fetches a 2nd-rounder and another pick, especially if the Devils pick up some of that remaining money. So yeah, I think that Lou needs to figure out exactly what he's doing with Patrik in 2015-16, and they're not in agreement, I think Lou has to move him. Some will lament that Patrik won't have played his entire career with the Devils, but I don't think it's that big of a deal...if Elias plays a year or two elsewhere, so be it. He'll be remembered as a Devil and all of his prime years and most memorable ones were spent here.

I like this post thank you. Elias has earned more respect than he is getting from the three headed monster. This team isn't going anywhere so who cares besides Lou. Elias could be put with JJ, Cammy, Zajac, Gomez or Henrique, there are your top 6, all the rest of the players are 4th line or worse. You have two lines for what 17 games. Get over yourself, Lou. Edited by BostonNala370
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Don't know why we're treating this like an issue. Elias gave an honest answer like he's always done. Chere asked a stupid question, like he always does lately. The team sucks at forward, which we already knew. This isn't news.

It's because the season is fading and we're looking at another year of no playoffs, so we have to fill the void and pass the time somehow.  

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But, ladies and gentlemen, this is indicative of how forwards will be used in the future. The "way' we played (IMO) exposed Philly's shortcomings on D and how effective.  Maybe Oates/Stevens combo will continue on?

 

Good god I hope not.

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I like this post thank you. Elias has earned more respect than he is getting from the three headed monster. This team isn't going anywhere so who cares besides Lou. Elias could be put with JJ, Cammy, Zajac, Gomez or Henrique, there are your top 6, all the rest of the players are 4th line or worse. You have two lines for what 17 games. Get over yourself, Lou.

I think it's more of Patrik having shown so much versatility in his career that Lou & Co. think he can find a way to get it done no matter who his linemates are. The problem is Patrik is now like an aging actor who somehow got bad movies to draw an audience and be better than they had any right to be due to his sheer presence, but can't do it anymore. It was one thing when he was working with a pretty good Brian Gionta and a younger Zubrus, but even Gretzky himself would have a hell of a time trying to make something happen with the 2015 Zubrus and Stephen Gionta.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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He's not a first or second line player on a legitimate contender team either, so let's not dissillusion ourselves Patty.

Now, whether he is comparing himself to our current slew of first and second liners, sure, he may have a point. But, Elias doesn't play on the 1st or 2nd line on a team like Anaheim, Chicago, or the Rangers.

His pride is hurt, and I can understand that. He feels he is better than most of the cast of characters we have on this squad and hence his gripe. I don't blame him. But, truthfully, he hasn't played exactly "lights out" this season either...

Also, I think this smells of "sour grapes" in the locker room as Elias isn't exactly an "outspoken type" to take his gripes to the media.

There may be some malcontent in the room with the jettisoning of Jagr, Zidlicky, and soon Havlat. Elias is seeing his "Czech Mate" group being dismantled, and he may not like that too much...

That last part is ridiculous. Elias is a professional and has seen every one of his teammates leave. Now you think he's bitter because Czech players are leaving? Don't be foolish. I don't think him and Jagr get along very well anyway for some reason. But I could definitely be mistaken.
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I think it's more of Patrik having shown so much versatility in his career that Lou & Co. think he can find a way to get it done no matter who his linemates are. The problem is Patrik is now like an aging actor who somehow got bad movies to draw an audience and be better than they had any right to be due to his sheer presence, but can't do it anymore. It was one thing when he was working with a pretty good Brian Gionta and a younger Zubrus, but even Gretzky himself would have a hell of a time trying to make something happen with the 2015 Zubrus and Stephen Gionta.

 

You have a good way of putting thing. I like the reference to acting.  I read the original posting by Chere, I am not a fan of Chere, but what really pissed me off was Lou's reaction to Elias's comments about playing the 4th line next season, let me repeat next season.  Lou said something like Elias has played against the top lines, so what Lou, that's not what Elias is talking about. Lou says Players have to play whatever position and line for the team  not for them, What BS Lou. Lou says I don't know why we are talking about this now, come on Lou, open your eyes  you're on a fools mission because of the poor team you put on the ice for the last 5 years. The Devils management and staff is pathetic. Sorry for a continuation of bitching about Lou but what has shown me or others Lou understands what has happen to the Devils and the future of the Devils? BTW I am sorry but Lou did know long before it happened that Parise was leaving, what a joke, he know when Parise baited him with a one year extension, and Lou never replaced the production of Parise and Kovy was going home. Kovy told him in December of the lockout season and Lou help him to leave because Vanderbeek couldn't afford to pay the players. No surprise Lou, what did you do to replace the production of either., NOTHING. NOTIHING.

 

Why should I be encouraged that with Lou staying on next season we will have a competitive team fighting for the playoffs.? He has failed since 2005.

 

I don't like his attitude towards Elais. I have vented. Thanks for reading.

 

IN Lou I don't Trust

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Parise had missed the previous season due to injury. He's small and takes a lot of contact. I would have wanted to see if he was healthy before offering him a long term deal as well. It's just stupid to say that Parise was baiting Lou, or Lou was wrong not to lock him up. It didn't work out, but I would do exactly what Lou did every time. Some of the Lou haters on here are ridiculous. I think where are some fair criticisms of the post lockout years, but the armchair gms who, thanks to hindsight, know exactly what Lou should have done are just bores. I also don't know how Lou's saying he doesn't want to talk about Elias' role next year relates to Parise leaving, unless your thesis is everything Lou does is wrong, so I'm going to relate it all together and whine.

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Parise only signed the one year deal for the express purpose of showing other teams he was healthy so he could land the big payday. He had no intention of staying here, it just would make no sense to sign a long term deal coming off a season missed due to injury.

Lou had NO CHANCE of retaining him. Personally, I'd have traded him during the one year deal.

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You have a good way of putting thing. I like the reference to acting.  I read the original posting by Chere, I am not a fan of Chere, but what really pissed me off was Lou's reaction to Elias's comments about playing the 4th line next season, let me repeat next season.  Lou said something like Elias has played against the top lines, so what Lou, that's not what Elias is talking about. Lou says Players have to play whatever position and line for the team  not for them, What BS Lou. Lou says I don't know why we are talking about this now, come on Lou, open your eyes  you're on a fools mission because of the poor team you put on the ice for the last 5 years. The Devils management and staff is pathetic. Sorry for a continuation of bitching about Lou but what has shown me or others Lou understands what has happen to the Devils and the future of the Devils? BTW I am sorry but Lou did know long before it happened that Parise was leaving, what a joke, he know when Parise baited him with a one year extension, and Lou never replaced the production of Parise and Kovy was going home. Kovy told him in December of the lockout season and Lou help him to leave because Vanderbeek couldn't afford to pay the players. No surprise Lou, what did you do to replace the production of either., NOTHING. NOTIHING.

 

Why should I be encouraged that with Lou staying on next season we will have a competitive team fighting for the playoffs.? He has failed since 2005.

 

I don't like his attitude towards Elais. I have vented. Thanks for reading.

 

IN Lou I don't Trust

 

First bold: Parise himself said it came down to Jersey and Minnesota in the summer of 2012. In the end, only Minny could offer a gigantic front loaded deal. Lou knowing about Kovy is purely speculation on your part. And unfortunately, there's no superstar tree to pick a new Parise or Kovalchuk from. They don't just appear like magic. 

 

Second bold: The Devils have missed the playoffs 3 times since 2005. Four including this year. BUT they also finished first in the division 4 seasons, second in the division one season, and went to the finals one year. That's not failing. 

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First bold: Parise himself said it came down to Jersey and Minnesota in the summer of 2012. In the end, only Minny could offer a gigantic front loaded deal. Lou knowing about Kovy is purely speculation on your part. And unfortunately, there's no superstar tree to pick a new Parise or Kovalchuk from. They don't just appear like magic.

Second bold: The Devils have missed the playoffs 3 times since 2005. Four including this year. BUT they also finished first in the division 4 seasons, second in the division one season, and went to the finals one year. That's not failing.

Regardless of what Parise said he knew when he extended for one year he was going to go back to Minn and be near his family. He was playing Lou and did a great job. He kept saying all the right thing because that is Parise.

When Kovy told the NFL and Lou he didn't want to return to play the shorten season Lou knew Kovy was going back to Russia after the shorten season. You are correct there isn't any superstar tree to pick from but for Lou to not replace the production from the loss of Kovy, Parise, Clarkson and Sykora gives us what we have today, last season and the season before !

You are again correct I am wrong to think that missing the playoffs 40% over the last 10 years isn't failure. And I guess missing them 80% in the past 5 years is acceptable. (Sorry, how could I ever think that way) And to think we can't even get to a better draft position. Also the cupboard is bare, empty, of offensive players in Albany but that's acceptable. (Sorry again).

Edited by BostonNala370
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Regardless of what Parise said he knew when he extended for one year he was going to go back to Minn and be near his family. He was playing Lou and did a great job. He kept saying all the right thing because that is Parise.

When Kovy told the NFL and Lou he didn't want to return to play the shorten season Lou knew Kovy was going back to Russia after the shorten season. You are correct there isn't any superstar tree to pick from but for Lou to not replace the production from the loss of Kovy, Parise, Clarkson and Sykora gives us what we have today, last season and the season before !

You are again correct I am wrong to think that missing the playoffs 40% over the last 10 years isn't failure. And I guess missing them 80% in the past 5 years is acceptable. (Sorry, how could I ever think that way) And to think we can't even get to a better draft position. Also the cupboard is bare, empty, of offensive players in Albany but that's acceptable. (Sorry again).

 

The bolded:  c'mon, so now you think you know exactly what Parise was thinking the whole time?  That is beyond pretentious. 

 

Kovy used to play in the NFL?  Guess he's a better athlete than we all thought.  And supposing Lou did know that Kovy was going back to Russia for sure...what was he supposed to have done about it?  No NHL team is trading for him under those circumstances, so Lou wasn't going to get anything back for him.  Might as well have him play out the 2013 season and hope he decides to stay.  He didn't.  Under the circumstances, Lou did what he could to try to get by (Jagr, Ryder), and made moves that at least looked pretty good on paper.  I remember quite a few fans being pretty happy with this past offseason.  Clowe was supposed to have been the replacement for Clarkson, and yeah, that one didn't work out, and many of us thought it might not...for some reason Lou decided to ignore Clowe's concussion history, which is pretty hard to defend.

 

I think just about everyone to a fan will admit that the last several years haven't been Lou's finest (but for some reason, among the Lou-bashing crowd, any attempt to defend any move Lou has or hasn't made gets labeled as "Kool-Aid drinking" by default).  We know how bad the drafting has been, especially with forwards.  That's really where the problem lies...for years, the Devils would lose a guy like Holik to UFA overpayment, but either through one player or a committee of players, find a way to overcome it.  When the pipeline isn't producing prospects, it's only a matter of time before you find yourself here (and part of that also goes back to not picking high, making "now"-type trades, etc).  No, it's not fun, but my question to the Lou-bashers is always the same:  exactly how long should he have been able to keep the Devils competitive?  Because for a majority of the period starting in '87-'88 to '11-'12, they were, and for a nice chuck of that time, were considered to be a top team, not just a "squeak in so we can say we got there" squad.  They missed the playoffs three friggin' times in that stretch.  That's 21 out of 24 seasons of playoff hockey, and it's not like it was an "empty" run that didn't result in any Cup appearances (or not enough of them).  Five Finals, three Cups.       

 

Seriously, you sound as ridiculously unfair as the former leader of the Second Guesser Lou Hate Club (who has since been silenced).  Why can't you guys understand that being a perennial playoff team isn't a friggin' birthright, and that eventually the party stops, and that no matter what the GM does (or what you think he should've done), every single team finds itself in a similar position to where the Devils are now.  I'm admittedly on the fence whether or not Lou should continue to be the GM; part of that has to do with his age (which may be a little unfair).  I also wonder if he's simply run his course here...GMs rarely stay with one team for this long; that being said, I do accept that even the best GMs in all sports will find themselves in a valley when they've been on the job for over two decades...it's inevitable.     

 

You may take this for granted, but Lou did find a goalie who should be among the league's elite for several years, and wrapped him up to a reasonable LTC when a lot of pessimists were sure that he wouldn't.  Cory's the reason the Devils aren't completely pathetic from a record standpoint, which should give you reason for hope, in that he's capable of making a lousy team better than it has any right to be (imagine what he can for an average team).  There's young defenseman contributing and learning.  Hasn't always been pretty, and sure, not all of them may turn out to be good, but at least the Devils have legit prospects there.  They're going to have an up-there first round pick (the schedule is going to do a number on the Devils' record from here on out), they've got a pair of second-rounders...money coming off the cap...there's reasons for optimism, but it's going to take some patience.    

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what i see a lot about players quote and the fans reaction... whoevers the player or what hes saying, its not gonna change the fan's mind. or anything.

 

if the player is touching a certain subject and say something that proves something the fan was thinking or support he'll take it and be like "atta boy, finally someone is saying something, hes so honest" but if he fan doesnt agree he'll get the "just play hockey and shut up" or "he just said that cause he had to, he probably doesnt mean it"

 

we saw a lot of that with marty and elias through the years

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It can't be easy talking to the media.  For one, especially in hockey, English isn't always each player's first language, and even if it is, a lot of these guys aren't wordsmiths, so it's not like they all know how to articulate themselves accurately.  And as we know, words on paper can lose something without inflection, and without the context in which they were uttered.  And once those words are out there in print, they can be twisted or overanalyzed to death.  What's usually the first thing that happens after a major sports press conference, or interview?  The media coming up with different interpretations of what was said, some of which can be off-base or simply looking for more than what is really there. 

 

But yeah, if you're down on Patrik right now, coupled with the season going poorly (or for any other number of reasons) you're probably going to read something negative into Elias' quotes (hey shut up, you're getting paid good money, you do whatever the organization asks, how can you be so selfish, etc).  If you think Patrik is being screwed by his current linemate situation, you'll go the other way.    

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The bolded:  c'mon, so now you think you know exactly what Parise was thinking the whole time?  That is beyond pretentious. 

 

Kovy used to play in the NFL?  Guess he's a better athlete than we all thought.  And supposing Lou did know that Kovy was going back to Russia for sure...what was he supposed to have done about it?  No NHL team is trading for him under those circumstances, so Lou wasn't going to get anything back for him.  Might as well have him play out the 2013 season and hope he decides to stay.  He didn't.  Under the circumstances, Lou did what he could to try to get by (Jagr, Ryder), and made moves that at least looked pretty good on paper.  I remember quite a few fans being pretty happy with this past offseason.  Clowe was supposed to have been the replacement for Clarkson, and yeah, that one didn't work out, and many of us thought it might not...for some reason Lou decided to ignore Clowe's concussion history, which is pretty hard to defend.

 

I think just about everyone to a fan will admit that the last several years haven't been Lou's finest (but for some reason, among the Lou-bashing crowd, any attempt to defend any move Lou has or hasn't made gets labeled as "Kool-Aid drinking" by default).  We know how bad the drafting has been, especially with forwards.  That's really where the problem lies...for years, the Devils would lose a guy like Holik to UFA overpayment, but either through one player or a committee of players, find a way to overcome it.  When the pipeline isn't producing prospects, it's only a matter of time before you find yourself here (and part of that also goes back to not picking high, making "now"-type trades, etc).  No, it's not fun, but my question to the Lou-bashers is always the same:  exactly how long should he have been able to keep the Devils competitive?  Because for a majority of the period starting in '87-'88 to '11-'12, they were, and for a nice chuck of that time, were considered to be a top team, not just a "squeak in so we can say we got there" squad.  They missed the playoffs three friggin' times in that stretch.  That's 21 out of 24 seasons of playoff hockey, and it's not like it was an "empty" run that didn't result in any Cup appearances (or not enough of them).  Five Finals, three Cups.       

 

Seriously, you sound as ridiculously unfair as the former leader of the Second Guesser Lou Hate Club (who has since been silenced).  Why can't you guys understand that being a perennial playoff team isn't a friggin' birthright, and that eventually the party stops, and that no matter what the GM does (or what you think he should've done), every single team finds itself in a similar position to where the Devils are now.  I'm admittedly on the fence whether or not Lou should continue to be the GM; part of that has to do with his age (which may be a little unfair).  I also wonder if he's simply run his course here...GMs rarely stay with one team for this long; that being said, I do accept that even the best GMs in all sports will find themselves in a valley when they've been on the job for over two decades...it's inevitable.     

 

You may take this for granted, but Lou did find a goalie who should be among the league's elite for several years, and wrapped him up to a reasonable LTC when a lot of pessimists were sure that he wouldn't.  Cory's the reason the Devils aren't completely pathetic from a record standpoint, which should give you reason for hope, in that he's capable of making a lousy team better than it has any right to be (imagine what he can for an average team).  There's young defenseman contributing and learning.  Hasn't always been pretty, and sure, not all of them may turn out to be good, but at least the Devils have legit prospects there.  They're going to have an up-there first round pick (the schedule is going to do a number on the Devils' record from here on out), they've got a pair of second-rounders...money coming off the cap...there's reasons for optimism, but it's going to take some patience.    

 

 

Cr In hear what you are saying, I know I am tough on Lou.

 

Just consider if you will for a moment; Was Parise talking to Sutter about coming to Minn? You know that is true.  That wasn't after or during the off season that was during his last year of play.

 

Lou's move getting and extending  Cory was outstanding and without him the Devils are done and I have been saying that all along.

 

I am not sure their draft position will change that much because of the schedule because the teams below them  are doing so great either. They could have helped their cause but Lou decided not to do that.

 

As for making up the lost goals he never did enough as soon as he should have know he was losing players such as Sykora, Clarkson, Parise and Kovy. Example he knew in January that Kovy was gone but waited until the off season to look for other players,.

 

Lets talk coaching, we have two players that have improved JJ and Larsson, why because DeBoer is gone. Lou waited too long, Lou picked him as a coach. How about Johnny Mac, bad choice and left too long.

 

Enough said about the drafting and that's on Lou.

 

I do understand what you are saying and I hate the repetition of my remarks. So I am done discussing Lou for the remained of this season, not off season, that would be too much. He's not the guy I want to float this ship. Too much bad lately. I also realize he was working under some tough conditions. I would never say he was too old to do the job, I would say too set in his ways and the  NHL has passed his way along time ago.  Thanks for the response.

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Me and BN370 had a completely civilized conversation SD.  I've had a few of those with him.  It wasn't an argument at all.  though. 

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Me and BN370 had a completely civilized conversation SD.  I've had a few of those with him.  It wasn't an argument at all.  Nice job on the F-ing C remark though. 

 

yeah go around the whole point of my post. you jabbed at me while i was not even part of the discussion or even posted recently.

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