Ray Shero: Pros and Cons

[jagknife]

I told this to Rangers fans all throughout the year, and I think it's relevant now to Devils fans. No one cares about who finished in 2nd place. And no one cares about who finished in 2nd place 3 years ago. This is a results business.

 

1990-2008 Lou Lamoriello would've fired 2014 Lou Lamoriello, simple as that.

 

Exactly, 2 wins from a Cup doesn't erase 4 out of 5 years of no playoffs. If we start accepting that as the norm, we're becoming Calgary or Carolina fans: happy with singular playoff appearances and maybe a round win or two but hey, we made that final that one year. That isn't what Lou built nor demanded during the time frame DJ pointed out. Even by his own high standards, this was/has to be coming.

Edited May 8, 2015 by jagknife

[Triumph]

Granted that Larsson was yoyo'ed by Deboer before he got fired and Severson missed a couple months but Merrill was not good for a good chunk of the year and Greene had a really slow start. It has the feel of a better unit because it has a terrific goalie behind it just as I defended the defensive group when it was being killed at times unfairly for the Swiss cheese goaltending it had for a few years with Brodeur and Hedberg.

 

No, that's not why.  You know I don't give a sh!t about that.  Larsson took a huge step forward, Severson established before Deboer's firing that he was really impressive (and even afterwards, though the results were spottier - good god were those last days of the season painful), and while Merrill had a lost season, I'm hoping he can use that as motivation because there is definitely talent there.  All these guys can break the puck out of their zone with good passing - now it's just up to the head coach to design a system that encourages this.

[NewarkDevil5]

No, that's not why.  You know I don't give a sh!t about that.  Larsson took a huge step forward, Severson established before Deboer's firing that he was really impressive (and even afterwards, though the results were spottier - good god were those last days of the season painful), and while Merrill had a lost season, I'm hoping he can use that as motivation because there is definitely talent there.  All these guys can break the puck out of their zone with good passing - now it's just up to the head coach to design a system that encourages this.

I think in large part that was the biggest problem that this team had about 5 years ago was their inability to make any passing plays in the neutral zone and I think that the defense should now be capable of it. As to whether or not the forwards are able to hold up their end of the bargain, that's the work in progress. I also have some concerns about teams parking guys in front of our net because I don't know who on our defense will be able to take out that kind of trash. Maybe a Helgeson type.

[themightyall]

Exactly, 2 wins from a Cup doesn't erase 4 out of 5 years of no playoffs. If we start accepting that as the norm, we're becoming Calgary or Carolina fans: happy with singular playoff appearances and maybe a round win or two but hey, we made that final that one year. That isn't what Lou built nor demanded during the time frame DJ pointed out. Even by his own high standards, this was/has to be coming.

 

The bad doesn't wipe out the good and the good doesn't wipe out the bad.  I just know from his track record that Lou did everything he should have done with the hand he was dealt but sometimes players retire at 30, sometimes they say, "I'm either signing with you or the Wild" and when the time came, he chose the Wild.  It sure is great to have hindsight and not all the facts and say Lou would've fired himself.

 

Regardless, Shero is making the decisions now.  So now what?  Does he make this team into Calgary and suck for a few years until he gets the young forwards?  Does he make us the Penguins and trade assets to win now?  When I first heard the news, I think this was my biggest worry.

[Triumph]

I think in large part that was the biggest problem that this team had about 5 years ago was their inability to make any passing plays in the neutral zone and I think that the defense should now be capable of it. As to whether or not the forwards are able to hold up their end of the bargain, that's the work in progress. I also have some concerns about teams parking guys in front of our net because I don't know who on our defense will be able to take out that kind of trash. Maybe a Helgeson type.

 

I really can't care about guys parking in front of the net - I just don't think this is a big problem, but it's probably one of the most visible ways a goal goes in - but thankfully Ray Shero cares a LOT about it (and so did Lou) so we'll get a crease clearing no-offense off-the-glass sort of defenseman, and maybe two if we're lucky.  

Edited May 8, 2015 by Triumph

[Marv4Life]

Exactly, 2 wins from a Cup doesn't erase 4 out of 5 years of no playoffs. If we start accepting that as the norm, we're becoming Calgary or Carolina fans: happy with singular playoff appearances and maybe a round win or two but hey, we made that final that one year. That isn't what Lou built nor demanded during the time frame DJ pointed out. Even by his own high standards, this was/has to be coming.

Not to mention that year we were thisclose to getting eliminated by the Florida Panthers. When people bring that crap up they're basically telling us nothing needs an overhaul, we're fine, etc. No we're not fine. Why accept mediocrity?

 

Shero's a fresh face. Think he's learned from his mistakes in PIT(hopefully). He does have success in the new NHL. He's got work to do but he has the ability to turn this thing around. The draft is probably the starting point for him unless he does something earlier.

[Triumph]

Not to mention that year we were thisclose to getting eliminated by the Florida Panthers. When people bring that crap up they're basically telling us nothing needs an overhaul, we're fine, etc. No we're not fine. Why accept mediocrity?

 

Shero's a fresh face. Think he's learned from his mistakes in PIT(hopefully). He does have success in the new NHL. He's got work to do but he has the ability to turn this thing around. The draft is probably the starting point for him unless he does something earlier.

 

It's time for you to retire this asinine 'We were this close to getting eliminated by the Florida Panthers'.  The Kings went 7 in their first round series last year and in 2011 the Bruins went to 7 in the first round also.  There's a lot of luck in the playoffs - the Devils were one of the NHL's best teams outside the crease from January on that year, and got the breaks in the postseason.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Triumph

[Derlique]

Post ASG, the Devils schedule became more difficult, which led to them looking piss poor. It was so difficult to evaluate players on that team, especially defensemen, because NJ was getting run possession wise. Severson was never going to keep up his pre-injury shot pace because they traded offensively talented players like Jagr and Zidlicky and the fact that NJ was drawing less PPs. Can we say with any certainty what he is going to be? I think this whole "star" talk might be premature and I'm really high on him. His shot rate was among the elite in the whole league and he's an awesome 1 on 1 defender. I don't know if Merrill was dragging him down (worrisome) or if Greene is THAT awesome.

[slasher72]

I look forward to Shero taking over, I just have my doubts that he's going to have free reign to do whatever he wants. Lou is still his boss and a lot of moves by Shero will likely have to be cool by Lou. I dunno.. I think we'll see change, but not as much as we hoped for.

Edited May 9, 2015 by slasher72

[maniacdevsdude]

I see a lot of parallels

A. Inability to draft forwards

B. Inability to hold onto biggest UFA (Parise for Lou and Hossa for Shero)

C. Overvaluing stay at home dmen (To Lou's credit, he has gotten away from this)

D. The focus on NA players

The owners made a big mistake forcing Lou upstairs, he had a plan, and was executing it quite well. The Devils have tons of cap space going forward, they have an elite goalie, and a stable of young d-men. I hope Shero doesn't botch the groundwork Lou has put in place.

I agree. The owners absolutely suck. Telling Lou to lose his GM responsibiities is the ultimate disrespect. What the hell do they know in comparison? Lou is a legendary GM and is the smartest man in the business. He built this franchise into what it is today and is responsible for their 3 Cups, take it or leave but that's the truth. But these two buffoons buy the team and cast him aside like he's irrelevant. I can't watch this team anymore. I'm done.

[Zubie#8]

The distaste people have for our owners is laughable.

[DevsMan84]

The distaste people have for our owners is laughable.

And we all know where this hatred for them is rooted.

[William D'Aquila]

And we all know where this hatred for them is rooted.

Please don't say the goal song.

[DevsMan84]

Please don't say the goal song.

Of course it is. What else would start it?

I can imagine you are going to come up with more lunatic explanations and comparisons to the 76er's, whining about redux of the concourse, the increase in prices (even though we are still one of the cheapest tickets in the league, and other bush league complaints about the owners.

If you prefer the ownership of McMullen who couldn't be bothered to spend money on the team or vanderbeek who couldn't afford to spend money on the team be my guest. But quit trolling and being all butthurt over them trying to bring the Devils into the 21st century.

[Devil Dan 56]

I agree. The owners absolutely suck. Telling Lou to lose his GM responsibiities is the ultimate disrespect. What the hell do they know in comparison? Lou is a legendary GM and is the smartest man in the business. He built this franchise into what it is today and is responsible for their 3 Cups, take it or leave but that's the truth. But these two buffoons buy the team and cast him aside like he's irrelevant. I can't watch this team anymore. I'm done.

You're done now after the mess we watched the last 3 years? I don't know. At least there's something to watch for now. I'm not a huge shero fan, but I'm very curious to see what he does over the next 2 seasons.

[DJ Eco]

And we all know where this hatred for them is rooted.

 

It's the Devils mentality of being afraid of change. Our fans booed Kovalchuk for 2 years, hell some of them were still booing him in the 2012 playoffs. Lou could have turned us into the 2015 Sabres over the next 2 years but whoever fired him would have always been met with disdain and anger.

[DevsMan84]

It's the Devils mentality of being afraid of change. Our fans booed Kovalchuk for 2 years, hell some of them were still booing him in the 2012 playoffs. Lou could have turned us into the 2015 Sabres over the next 2 years but whoever fired him would have always been met with disdain and anger.

 

I think that's only a small part of it.

[NewarkDevil5]

It's the Devils mentality of being afraid of change. Our fans booed Kovalchuk for 2 years, hell some of them were still booing him in the 2012 playoffs. Lou could have turned us into the 2015 Sabres over the next 2 years but whoever fired him would have always been met with disdain and anger.

 

I can understand an aversion to change for a fanbase that had seen fairly consistent success over the course of almost three decades with a guy whose catch phrase among fans was "Status quo." The status is no longer quo and that is difficult for some people to accept.

[Daniel]

On 5/7/2015 at 11:16 AM, Triumph said:

Now that we've all settled in with the news, I thought it was time to examine Ray Shero's tenure as Pittsburgh GM from a broad perspective.

 

Pros:  Unafraid to make the big trade.

 

Shero made a huge splash to get Marian Hossa in 2008, figuring his team was ready to make a run, and weirdly he wasn't wrong.  Shero dealt Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito (Pittsburgh's 1st round pick in 2007) and their 1st round pick in 2008 for Hossa and Pascal Dupuis.  Had he managed to re-sign Hossa in Pittsburgh, that could've been a special team - Hossa's one of the best players in the league and a spectacularly underrated talent.  It shouldn't be lost that Pascal Dupuis has been a solid contributor in Pittsburgh for many years after that trade, and on a cheap contract (at least at first - Dupuis was resigned to a 3 year 4.2M deal and produced 47 goals over those 3 seasons.

 

Trading Jordan Staal away, while a move I'm not in love with, has prepared the Penguins for at least a decent future.

 

Pros:  Understands something about player value

 

Shero moved Ryan Whitney and Alex Goligoski for large returns - both Whitney and Goligoski were overvalued because of their point totals but neither is a top pairing defenseman.  He got great returns on each, especially Goligoski - Niskanen turned out to be as good as Goligoski and then there was James Neal.

 

Signing Petr Sykora and Miroslav Satan both were solid moves. 

 

Pros:  Has been successful in not allowing players to walk

 

Kris Letang was threatened with a trade and signed a contract to stay in Pittsburgh. Jordan Staal didn't and was traded.  Now that the Devils don't really have any valuable players besides Larsson who are close to UFA, it doesn't matter, but at least this will quiet one section of the fanbase.

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Cons:  Doesn't understand goaltending

 

Signed Marc-Andre Fleury to a massive 6 year/30M deal after his run to the Cup Finals in 2008 - Fleury had had a good season and great playoff but up to that point had been an average goalie.  In fairness he did try to correct this by signing Tomas Vokoun but Vokoun had health issues.

 

Cons:  Has not had a significant contribution from a UDFA

 

This one's hard to pin on him, but the Penguins just haven't found a guy like this, and this has been the Devils' bread-and-butter for a very long time.  They found Mark Letestu and then treated him like found money, trading him to Columbus for a 4th round pick inexplicably.  Ben Lovejoy was also undrafted and became a 3rd pairing D there.  Deryk Engelland was drafted but went unsigned by the Devils, and Pittsburgh eventually found a role for him. 

 

Cons:  Was unable to beef up Penguins bottom six

 

In 2009, the Penguins claimed Craig Adams off waivers from Chicago.  I wouldn't be surprised if Craig Adams is the longest-tenured player in the NHL with one team who acquired him via waivers - SOMEHOW he was still a Pittsburgh Penguin 6 years later.  Not even counting this season, Craig Adams ranked last in points/60 among forwards with 3000 minutes over that time.  Second to him was Tanner Glass, someone who also spent considerable time in Pittsburgh.  His territorial play is slightly better than that, but it's still not great.  Brandon Sutter has also been pretty awful as a 3rd line center, something that often gets glossed over.  Regardless, this is a huge issue for the Devils because they have bottom six issues and lots of young players who could maybe fill in on bottom 6 roles, and they're simply not going to have an above-average top 6 forwards probably ever unless they totally collapse this season.

 

Cons:  Overvalues stay at home D men

 

Deryk Engelland, Douglas Murray, Hal Gill, Zbynek Michalek, Brooks Orpik, Rob Scuderi.  This is a problem with the rest of the NHL, but trading 2 2nd round picks for Doug Murray even in a wildly overvalued trade market is a terrible trade.  I'm becoming more convinced that most of these guys just cannot have a role for you at all - with how little penalties are being called these days, their role on the PK is diminishing, and they just destroy offense 5 on 5.  I fully expect the Devils to end up with a bag of sh!t like Tim Gleason next season.

 

Cons:  Traded away lots of draft picks

 

The Penguins didn't have a pick in the first 3 rounds in 2008.  They didn't have a 2nd round pick in 2010 or 2014.  They also didn't have a 1st in 2013.  They had 2 1sts in 2012 but they sure weren't able to give their organization a shot to draft a lot of talent.  In fairness, Shero basically started from scratch in 2006 - yes he had Crosby and Malkin but the Penguins had almost no players in their prime or close and so it's tough to have excess talent in that situation, talent that can be dealt for draft picks.  

 

Cons:  Drafts focused almost exclusively in North America

 

I've said before that I don't like evaluating general managers based on drafts, but in the drafts overseen by Shero - 2006 to 2013 - the Penguins drafted 5 players who were playing outside North America at the time.  It's really hard to beat the market on junior hockey players, and so I don't like that kind of organizational blindness. 

So I wanted to go back and see what everyone's reaction was when Shero got the GM job, but found this one and decided to bump it.  Tri got a lot of stuff right, but I think it shows more than anything that GMs have less of a set philosophy or MO than we might think.  A lot of what they do, for better or worse, is reacting to where the league seems to be going and the situation they're in.

So with the Devils, Shero seems to have played his goalie cards just right in that he hasn't made a panic move when things looked dicey, although goalie drafting has been pretty poor.  Has stocked up a lot of draft picks (different situation than Pittsburgh) and has drafted a lot of non-North Americans (more to do with scouting and your situation).  He has brought on exactly one stay at home defenseman in Lovejoy, but he's the sixth defender who is mostly there for penalty killing.  Signed the best UDFA of this past year's class, although what I think Tri was getting at was that a team like the Penguins at that time should have had an easier time attracting those players than other teams.

Definitely continues to make big trades, and I would say has done a masterful job in evaluating player value, save for Grabner.

 

[jagknife]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

So I wanted to go back and see what everyone's reaction was when Shero got the GM job, but found this one and decided to bump it.  Tri got a lot of stuff right, but I think it shows more than anything that GMs have less of a set philosophy or MO than we might think.  A lot of what they do, for better or worse, is reacting to where the league seems to be going and the situation they're in.

So with the Devils, Shero seems to have played his goalie cards just right in that he hasn't made a panic move when things looked dicey, although goalie drafting has been pretty poor.  Has stocked up a lot of draft picks (different situation than Pittsburgh) and has drafted a lot of non-North Americans (more to do with scouting and your situation).  He has brought on exactly one stay at home defenseman in Lovejoy, but he's the sixth defender who is mostly there for penalty killing.  Signed the best UDFA of this past year's class, although what I think Tri was getting at was that a team like the Penguins at that time should have had an easier time attracting those players than other teams.

Definitely continues to make big trades, and I would say has done a masterful job in evaluating player value, save for Grabner.

 

Who could have predicted Grabner to be such a monumental disaster though? On paper he should have been a lock to flourish under our system

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, jagknife said:

Who could have predicted Grabner to be such a monumental disaster though? On paper he should have been a lock to flourish under our system

Ray did nothing wrong in trading for Grabner, still. Some things can't be predicted and that was one of them. 

[Daniel]

11 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Ray did nothing wrong in trading for Grabner, still. Some things can't be predicted and that was one of them. 

If it's the worst thing he does while he's here, the team should have a very bright future.  Still, losing that second round pick could limit what he can do this summer.  Makes trading the first rounder much more difficult, especially since it means the Devils won't be picking until the fourth round.

[mfitz804]

25 minutes ago, Daniel said:

If it's the worst thing he does while he's here, the team should have a very bright future.  Still, losing that second round pick could limit what he can do this summer.  Makes trading the first rounder much more difficult, especially since it means the Devils won't be picking until the fourth round.

I agree 100%, but you only know that from now, looking back. At the time of the deal, it was a good move. You have to wonder, if he came in and scored at the same pace he was, maybe things could have been different. 

Probably not, but still. 

[EdgeControl]

in retrospect:

con  staying with bylsma for too long , did his coach lose the teamearlier?

ill take some decent defensive defensemen now  we have neither