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'7'

Mets 2015-16 Offseason Thread

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First off let me say their is no team that is owed more by the baseball gods than the Mets. I know people say Cubs but you know what...the Cubs are just flat out bad, they're choke/gutwrenching loss list doesn't come close to ours since 1986. Not even in the same universe

 

Scioscia, the late 90's Braves. 2000 Yankees. Chipper Jones. The cab ride from hell. 2007, again in 2008. Benitez, Molina, Wainwright, Castillo, Game 1 2015, Game 4 2015, TONIGHT. This is inhuman, incalculable, awful luck that's akin to flipping a coin 50 times and having it land on heads 50 times. It always comes up non Mets. Right down to the Doofus throw home. Right down to Murphy not picking and easy ground ball. Right down to Kenny Rogers. We are literally paying for the 86 Miracle for the rest of time. For eternity maybe. We are the new Red Sox.

 

Anyway, my offseason strategy is Purge the Stupidity. I love the starting pitching. It's incredible, it's supposed to have brighter days ahead. It's gritty, it's focused, it can be the backbone of this franchise going forward. We're in good shape with it and it should ensure us a lot of competitive years going forward.

 

The rockheads have to go. It's hard to dislike Cespedes but he's 30 and on his millionth team. He is all power, all brawn, all show. He also has a marble rattling around up there and has no concept of situational hitting and never will. He's a poor mans Manny Ramirez who wants to get paid like the real Manny. Not going to happen. Gone goodbye. Go kick balls around the outfield in some other stadium and flail wildly at balls 3 feet outside in some other city

 

Murphy...would entertain re signing him because we may need him at 3rd. Doesn't have a position, poor range, dumb. Inhuman hot streak though. Still haven't seen enough of Herrera to know if he's really the heir apparent. On the fence with this one

 

d'Arnaud really took a hit in my opinion here. No ability to throw out anyone. Flailing wildly to the point where he looks like he's deliberately trying to hit into DP's by pulling outside balls to the SS. Also the injury concerns. Not 100% sold on him moving forward but he probably stays

 

Conforto needs to be our everyday LF. He's gonna be real good.

 

Duda I'm incensed at but he's not going anywhere.

 

Bullpen needs to be retooled. Who knows in what way. We could also use some speed on the basepaths. A lefty reliever .s imperative. Maybe one who doesn't break their arm twice a year.

 

Terry Collins is a manager stuck in the 60s with no understanding of when to pull a starter. I'm a huge fan of taking a guy out 1 or 2 batters early. Well Terry went 2 batters too late and it cost us a chance at game 6. Why Harvey was in their after letting up a leadoff walk I don't know. What did he think he would strike out the next guy? Get a DP? Nope, we're the Mets and god hates us and we don't get those breaks. BOOM. Double. Game over

 

But why would Terry learn? This has only happened 50 times.

 

I think he's a fine motivator, and a good man. And you can't really fire him now, but what this team needs is a man who understands baseball in the year 2015, not one that just trusts his pitcher when he says "i'm good to go" I can see when it's over. He can't.

Edited by '7'

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Cespedes, Murph, Duda, Flores, and Clippard are on my short list as players I think the Mets should move on from. There's a part of me that does like Murph, but it just feels like it's time to move on. I try to hang onto all of the young starters for now...I still hold out hope that Harvey will grow up.

And Terry is just too amateurish and not very bright. He still hasn't learned how to handle a pitching staff.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976

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For a team that made the World Series man they really got exposed as incredibly flawed.  Perhaps we already knew they were flawed, it just came home to roost against a well-balanced team.

 

Bullpen other than Familia I can take or leave any of them.  Reed I'd probably still prefer back even after tonight but it depends on price, not as if he's a guy that misses bats though and as you saw with the Royals having a ton of hard-throwing relievers can be intimidating.  Robles I guess should be in line for a bigger role though I don't really trust him.  Clippard can take a hike, they need a healty version of Blevins to actually get lefties out and to pay for/trade for a big setup guy.

 

Offensively/defensively they're definitely going to have to make changes to both.  The key is how you do it with possibly losing a big chunk of what little offense you have in FA.  Granderson/Conforto/Wright/Travis are the only ones I'd say for sure should be back next year although if you could somehow flip Travis for a big power-hitting outfielder and a live pen arm I'd consider it since you still have Plawecki around and maybe he can actually throw a runner out.  But they just cannot go on with having an infield of Duda-Murphy-Flores-Wright, that got exposed big-time.  They have to improve the D and somehow at the same time find big bats to replace Cespedes and Murphy.

 

Starting pitching we know who the top four are and atm Niese is still signed and here, probably will hold the #5 spot till Wheeler gets back if he's not traded in the offseason.  Not much really needs to be done here thankfully.

Edited by NJDevs4978

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2016 is now or never for Herrera. Time to give him the job and see what he can do with it.

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Cespedes, Murph, Duda, Flores, and Clippard are on my short list as players I think the Mets should move on from. There's a part of me that does like Murph, but it just feels like it's time to move on. I try to hang onto all of the young starters for now...I still hold out hope that Harvey will grow up.

And Terry is just too amateurish and not very bright. He still hasn't learned how to handle a pitching staff.

 

btw lol at Terry for saying well he didn't want to take Harvey out after one batter cause then you shouldn't send him out if you're going to do that.  As if he hadn't done that at other points this season.  Clearly Game #2 against the Cubs he did that, even after Harvey got two outs he gave up one bomb to Schwarber and was out of there.  And like Ronnie said on the postgame it's extremely ironic that two months after all the talk about innings limits the Mets lose their season letting Harvey go one batter too many.

 

It is hard to believe free agency starts in less than a week, although unlike the NHL free agents don't often really sign for a few weeks.

Edited by NJDevs4978

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As I sit here and reflect, it's really upsetting how this team cruised into the World Series and promptly turned into the 1991-2014 Mets. Not only did they lose, they lost in laughingstock choke fashion. 4 consecutive 10-0 games would have been preferable

 

Anyway, Flores has to go as well. Find a nice quiet dead of winter day to unload him. The Mets will be lambasted in the media but he has no position and no knowledge of the strike zone. You can't go forward with him either. I think he can net a pretty good bullpen arm, his power and youth have value

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It's also hard to believe that when you sit and look at this team just how far they went with all the flaws that got exposed repeatedly.  Yes they have the starting pitching but when you look at the offense and its issues (too HR reliant, not enough speed or OBP), the defensive issues, the pen with its one reliable reliever and another semi-reliable one that barely touches 90 MPH and got lit up tonight...let's just say Sandy can't exactly sit on any laurels this offseason.  Starting pitching or not he's got a lot of work to do.

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Familia's World Series: 5 IP, 1 ER - 3 hits allowed out of 18 batters (.167) with no walks

 

Three blown saves

 

Life ain't fair :P

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It's also hard to believe that when you sit and look at this team just how far they went with all the flaws that got exposed repeatedly.  Yes they have the starting pitching but when you look at the offense and its issues (too HR reliant, not enough speed or OBP), the defensive issues, the pen with its one reliable reliever and another semi-reliable one that barely touches 90 MPH and got lit up tonight...let's just say Sandy can't exactly sit on any laurels this offseason.  Starting pitching or not he's got a lot of work to do.

 

With MLB being such a whiff league now (and this may finally start to change), and the Mets having all these young flamethrowers (all of whom can strike guys out), the poor team defense got covered up for a while...but we saw what can happen when a strong contact team like KC comes along.  Hopefully other GMs are seeing that there is something to being able to put the ball in play...the amount of strikeouts in baseball (and the mentality that striking out 150+ times per season isn't really that big of a deal) has gotten absurd, and it's time that guys who actually can make contact and put up tough ABs started making their way back into the sport (even if they don't necessarily hit a ton of HRs).  KC's success in this arena might lead the rediscovery of good old-fashioned contact hitting as a valuable skillset.

 

Yeah, Mets are clearly flawed offensively and defensively.  It's good that this team isn't locked into being the same group next season, and even if Sandy wanted this team to come back almost intact, the finances won't allow it anyway.  I can't see him wanting to spend roughly $170-$200 million to being Cespedes and Murph back. 

 

Anyway, as far as the everyday starting eight go, here's who I think will stay:

 

LF:  Conforto.  No-brainer...he's young, cheap, with solid upside, and was better defensively than advertised. 

 

CF:  Lagares.  His back-loaded contract and offensive and defensive regression means the Mets are stuck with him for the moment.  With him, you hope his defense returns to his 2014 standard, and that the fact that he spent a lot of time on the pine as a defensive replacement makes him realize he's going to have to work very hard to become an everyday player again.  Circumstances dictate (similar to Tejada's Met career) that he's going to get another chance...he needs to surprise by making the most of it. 

 

RF:  Granderson.  If he can approximate 90% of the year he just had, we have to take it and run with it.  Had an excellent year overall, especially given expectations.  He's not a prefect leadoff hitter, but he was a very good approximation of one. 

 

3B:  Wright.  It is what it is.  His postseason, save for a few big ABs, went just about exactly as I thought it would (as did Doofus').  He is clearly never going to be 2005-08 Wright, and probably won't even be 2012-13 Wright.  Over a full season, I think 2014 Wright is the best we can hope for, which means he's obviously going to be grossly and painfully overpaid, and has no chance to live up to his contract.  It also means the only way to get rid of him is to take on an equally poisonous contract back.  So what does Sandy do?  Everything he possibly can to minimize Wright's importance.  Wright is going to be nothing more than a bit player in this show from now on...what's sad is sometimes guys in his position who are clearly fading still have that knack for coming up with some big ABs and raising their games in big moments.  We know it very much goes the other way with David and there's a Mt. Everest mountain's worth of evidence to support that.  The organization has a soft spot for him and I think will always treat him like the old Wright no matter what the results, so when he's penciled into the lineup no matter what he does, I'll just have to live with it.  But we should all expect to be driven crazy from time to time because with Wright comes a lot of failure.

 

C:  d'Arnaud.  I think he gets one more year to show that he can stay healthy and be better defensively behind the plate.  But as far as I'm concerned, he's on notice...he has shown nice flashes, but the injury issues and not-so-good D behind the plate can't be ignored for much longer.

 

And who goes:

 

1B:  Duda.  It's enough.  He's been given enough time here, but some guys just aren't winning ballplayers.  2014 was clearly a career year, and even then there will still some warts.  Good pitchers have little trouble getting him out (and striking him out for that matter).  There's always room on bad teams for pretty good players, and Duda can have a nice career playing on 60-80 win teams and hitting 25-30 HRs and giving the fans of non-contending teams something to cheer for.  But his flaws are too costly for him to remain here, and on a team that isn't known for being clutch, the only way to start changing the identity is to start moving the guys who were involved in the sucking before the tide began to turn.  Duda needs to go, now.

 

2B:  Murph.  Had an all-time, unforgettable postseason run, made all the more impressive by the quality of arms that he did his damage against.  But the weak parts of his game (that rear their ugly heads too often) are never going to get better.  He's never evolved.  I would actually consider signing him to be the Mets first baseman, but that's probably too risky if he can't decently field the position.  I'm guessing Flores and/or Herrera will be the Mets' second baseman next year.  Both are iffy, but at some point status quo can't be good enough...I've seen enough brainfarts and defensive miscues from Murph.  Just time to move on. 

 

OF:  Cespedes.  Been over this many times, but the last thing the Mets need is a $150+ million fat cat who came up puny in the playoffs (another guy who can be pitched to) and showed lots of signs of not being a hustler or a team guy.  Also showed why his overall numbers (like OB%) aren't really all that good.  Thanks for being a huge reason as to why the Mets made the playoffs Yoenis, but go get (over)paid somewhere else.  I don't want to read about how the Mets are stuck with dual albatross contracts (Wright and Cespedes) sometime during the 2017 season. 

 

Who I'd like to see go:

 

SS:  Tejada.  He's really not bad, but I just don't know how much the Mets can squeeze out of him.  I'd love to see an upgrade here, but I don't know if one will be available that isn't cost-prohibitive or makes sense.   

 

Flores:  Guy doesn't have a position and is Lagares at the plate with more power.  Another Met hitter who strikes out too much, doesn't walk enough, and seems to be easily overmatched by tougher arms.  The Mets can't continue to be a lineup full of lower-average, lower OB%, high-K performers who occasionally jack HRs. 

 

Mets struck out 140 times in 14 playoff games...that's just too many times.  Too many guys are easy outs against above-average pitchers.  It's time for this organization to change the offensive philosophy. 

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976

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Familia's World Series: 5 IP, 1 ER - 3 hits allowed out of 18 batters (.167) with no walks

 

Three blown saves

 

Life ain't fair :P

 

Almost impossible, but hey the Mets always make these things happen

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CR I'm good with sh!tcanning Duda but I almost guarantee he's probably out 1b for the foreseeable future. I think Sandy gives him a mulligan this postseason and he does sorta fit the mold of being a high obp/power guy that fits into the Sandyball philosophy. Flores doesn't at all, so I think he's a goner. We're going to have to deal with some negative press when we finally do come around to trading him. He cannot play defense in any which way shape or form. He is stiff, wooden in the field with zero range regardless of where you put him

 

Maybe we can look into a late inning defensive replacement to spell Duda in the later innings, because he himself has no range and really can't throw at all.

 

Cuddyer I pray retires.

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It's good to see you guys wanting to move on from cespedes. I've never liked his game in any uniform. The hallmark play of his for me was against the pirates when he misplayed a ball off the wall and then gunned down Sean Rodriguez at 3rd. It was quintessential cespedes. Horribly fumbling baseball fundamentals and saving himself with one of his exceptional talents.

Edited by thecoffeecake

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'7', I think with Duda, it's just reached a point where the Mets have got to start upgrading defensively in the infield.  Duda can be a pretty good OB% and can hit HRs, but he's just too inconsistent, and it's time that these young pitchers stop having to deal with extra outs seemingly every game.  I know the Mets are fvcked with Wright (maybe they can move him to first where his capgun arm will be less of an issue), but that infield defense needs to be upgraded badly.  Duda and Murph can't be back playing first and second again (Flores shouldn't be in this infield going forward either).  I'll live with Tejada at short if I have to...I won't love it, but I'll take him over Flores. 

 

 

It's good to see you guys wanting to move on from cespedes. I've never liked his game in any uniform. The hallmark play of his for me was against the pirates when he misplayed a ball off the wall and then gunned down Sean Rodriguez at 3rd. It was quintessential cespedes. Horribly fumbling baseball fundamentals and saving himself with one of his exceptional talents.

 

I was never in the "Mets have to re-sign this guy" camp.  I do appreciate what he brought in the regular season...none of his happens without him.  He did a great Manny Ramirez imitiation for those 40 games or so, but in the end he's Yoenis Cepedes.  He'll never have a run anywhere near that again.  The deal worked out exactly as it was supposed to:  a short-term rental that paid immediate dividends.  It got the Mets to the World Series and led to seven home playoff games.  The deal was a success, even with Cespedes tailing off after getting hit.  And now it's time to move on. 

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I just hope his option isn't picked up. You know what's interesting is that I'd love to have Terry as a fiery good locker room guy bench coach type...but this guy can't manage.

 

 

I agree '7'.  TC is still shaky and a bit dopey and having a much-improved talent pool helped to hide that for a while, but TC still got in the way one too many times.  His handling of Harvey last night was the last straw for me.  It's great that Harvey was fired up and wanted to keep going, but sometimes you have to tell a guy like him "No...thanks for everything, you did all I ever could've asked for, but no.  I'm going with Familia."  TC has been leaving starting pitchers in too long for as long as I can remember.  At the very least, Harvey should've been out of the game after the walk. 

 

Problem is I have no idea where Sandy goes to find a replacement.  Has suggested Dusty Baker, but if you scroll down to "Criticisms" in the link below, it doesn't seem like Sandy and Baker would be on the same page philosophically at all...Baker is apparently as anti-sabes as it gets:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusty_Baker

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976

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Yeah I said that would never happen with this management group, I was just commenting on the point there weren't that many big names out there and none that fit Sandy's vision of a manager.

Plus Terry wasn't getting fired after making the playoffs anyway. The only guy you could fire Terry for that there wouldn't be a backlash is Backman but we know THAT isn't happening either, wouldn't shock me if he was blackballed from getting a ML job after the Arizona mess.

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Yeah I said that would never happen with this management group, I was just commenting on the point there weren't that many big names out there and none that fit Sandy's vision of a manager.

Plus Terry wasn't getting fired after making the playoffs anyway. The only guy you could fire Terry for that there wouldn't be a backlash is Backman but we know THAT isn't happening either, wouldn't shock me if he was blackballed from getting a ML job after the Arizona mess.

 

The only reason I could've seen Terry getting canned even after making the playoffs (and I don't think he had all that much to do with the Mets getting there...when damned near all of your starting pitchers are on a roll for a while and the offense goes on a tear to the tune of 6+ runs per game for an extended stretch, you're going to win even if Art Howe is the manager...just look what he "did" with the A's) is that Sandy's not a huge TC guy.  I think if Bud Black had still been available, he could have been the Met manager in 2016.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976

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Wilmer Flores is not the same guy that started season kicking the ball all over the place. In fact, he became pretty damn good defensively. I'm not saying I want keep him at short stop but the guy did just turn 24. His numbers at the dish are also pretty damn good for a guy in his first full big league season. It would an incredibly bad idea to give up on him at this point. He hits line drives all over the place and sees a lot of pitches. They may not have turned into a lot of walks this year but that'll come. He could easily be a corner infielder. I see a lot of Jeff Kent in him. He'll never steal 20 bases but he'll get you a lot of doubles. He was also very clutch in the regular season. I'd hate to see him turn in to some one elses star. Especially when he doesn't really make any money.

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How about that. Dusty Baker as Nats manager! Offseason off to a great start for the Mets!

 

ok so he's no buffoon, but seems to me all he's done is underachieve with some very good teams.

Edited by '7'

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Interesting that Bud Black is still available.  I'd can Terry and hire him if I was Sandy, but I'm guessing TC gets extended almost as a formality at this point. 

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Interesting that Bud Black is still available. I'd can Terry and hire him if I was Sandy, but I'm guessing TC gets extended almost as a formality at this point.

Nats were all set to hire Black, but they pulled a Wilpon: http://deadspin.com/dusty-baker-named-nationals-manager-after-they-cheap-ou-1740226658?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

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Oh I know...when I first saw 7's post I was like "What?!  I thought they already hired Bud Black!"  I posted something a few months ago about Sandy's and Black's history (Sandy hired him to be the Padres' manager in 2006: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/08/AR2006110801559.html) but I think both Sandy and the Mets might be mistakenly assuming that 90 wins and getting to the World Series makes TC a better manager than he really is.  Terry's flaws were well-displayed during the World Series...he's not any better or any smarter...he just had more talent to work with.

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And on top of that...didn't Terry hint not too long ago that he doesn't even want to manage all that much longer? This is the time to drop him (or ease him out, ride him into the sunset etc)

 

Just get Bud Black in here. Wonder if he takes a bench coach job and Terry can announce 2016 will be his final season managing (which I think it will be) Terry can than either leave or be a consultant or something and Black has the team.

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Fully expected that. Just hope the team can overcome him.

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What did you expect? Them not to reward Collins after getting a young team to a World Series. He did a great job for the most part. Pushed every right button against the Dodgers and Cubs. I get that he didn't have a great Series. The loyalty to Clippard and not pulling Harvey after the walk to Cain. He's not perfect. No manager is. Had the Mets fielded cleanly, they'd still be playing. They weren't on the Royals level defensively and late in games with situation hitting. Of course you also had that just unreal base running gaffe by Cespedes. 

 

In a lot of ways, that series reminded me of 2000 vs the Yankees. They had leads in that one too and were done in by blown saves, bad base running and dinks and dunks from guys like Vizcaino and Sojo. I was pulling for you guys. I like this Mets team. They are a bunch of likable guys. Even Harvey became easier to root for with his performance in Game 5. It's unfortunate how it ended. There's a lot to like about them. They'll learn from that experience. The Royals did last year. Hopefully, the owners don't put the cuffs on Alderson.

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