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One thing I have noticed about the Devils is how much fun they're having. It didn't seem like much of a happy or fun place under Lou and DeBoer. I wonder if that was more due to Lou and his rules. Of course, DeBoer wore off too. All coaches get stiff after a while. Players start tuning them out.

 

But I do wonder about how good the Devils look under Hynes while the Leafs look miserable despite hiring Babcock. The common denominator is Lamoriello. An old school GM so set in his ways that he has the same rules in place for a big pressure market like Toronto that was in New Jersey which was under less of a radar. In the old days, it worked due to the Hall Of Fame talent they had. Great leadership. But maybe that style isn't right anymore with today's modern athlete. 

 

I see Devils now growing beards and taking part in #Movember to raise cancer awareness. Henrique particularly on Twitter. It just seems like they have made it a lot more fun for the players. And a lot better for the fans in terms of interactive with public practices, etc. Maybe that change has been for the better. You see players performing more. 

 

But also it reminds me a bit of '05-06 with the Rangers post lockout. That team had more talent obviously. Plus Lundqvist in his rookie year. But just the overall attitude from the Devils is similar. They have been counted out. I had them ranked 30th with 52 or 54 points. Oops. Sometimes, players rise up when it's least expected. But I really believe all the changes they have made has been a key ingredient. It doesn't mean they'll make the wildcard. But it means they're gonna be competitive. That there won't be any easy nights for opponents. That's a step in the right direction.

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Lou clearly ran his course here and it was time for a change.  The fact that he was successful for so long allowed him to retain the benefit of the doubt with the new owners (and others), but when the team was no longer getting positive results (and let's face it, Lou's way gets hard to take for several factions when the wins stop coming), with a number of players committed to being here for a while, it was time to move on and try something different.  These players probably feel like that they can breathe a lot easier now, and are enjoying and appreciating their newfound freedoms...and though it's been said many times, it's nice that some deadwood has been trimmed away. 

 

It wasn't like the Leafs were having loads of fun before Lou arrived there, so I don't know how much of what's happening there can be put on him...he inherited a pretty serious mess.  I do think he's going to fail up there though, and pretty badly.  If he really wants to keep being a GM in the NHL, he's probably going to have to start compromising and adjusting some of the more "my way or the highway" parts of his personality.  I don't think he can or will.  I could understand his being that way here, as his run was one of the most successful ever in his era, but if he insists on continuing that with the Leafs, results be damned, then Sterio (not knocking him here) and others who have criticized him for being stubborn and refusing to adapt are going to have some evidence to back up their arguments. 

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Not sure how much the doing away with Lou's old school rules has to do with it. And most of them I kind of liked, and am really hoping that there's no third jersey coming anytime soon.

As to how much more exciting the on ice product is, it's important to realize that it's mainly Lou'sand Conte's players that are supplying it. Shero's most important moves right now have been the coach and Palmieri, which I don't think happen if Lou is still the GM. It's 50/50 whether Zubrus, Gomez and Bernier would still be on the team if Lou is the GM.

What it all tells me is that if things turn around quicker than we thought, we'll realize that it had a lot to do with Lou and Conte, but at the same time, someone new was needed for the team to turn the corner.

I haven't followed the doings in Toronto all that much, except to know that they're really bad, which is kind of what everyone expected. Whoever took that job was in for a long rebuild. I just wonder whether Lou can pull off one of those trades that can accelerate that process.

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I think this is a bit of a stretch. There really may not be a difference at all, except the fact that Devils ownership/management making an effort to let the fans in, and get to know the players and show off their personalities. Obviously not marketing the players and their off-ice personalities was Lou's doing, but that isn't to say the players weren't having a good time behind the scenes. From the tidbits that TG reported, there was always laughs with Brodeur/Clarkson, Jagr and Zubrus, anyone and Zubrus.

 

BUT...the last few years this was a veteran team, a lot of new faces from free agency not living up to expectations. The team had unreasonable expectations. There was a lot of losing. There was an uncomfortable goalie situation for a season. That isn't a Deboer or Lamoriello thing. It's just your job not going well. 

 

I can't speak to the Leafs situation. There's a lot of losing so far, but that was expected. The Devils could start losing soon, and the perceived looseness of the Devils may be considered a negative. There is no formula here, and whatever happens can be spun in an direction.

Edited by devilsrule33
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I would agree that the Devils are more light hearted without Lou.  Like others have said though, that might not be such a good thing when they are losing.  Being 7-2-1 in the last 10 is the real reason having fun is a good thing right now.  There is more than one way to skin a cat.  Just because some people got sick of Lou's ways doesn't mean that his way wasn't effective.  That's also not to say that Shero isn't doing what he sees as an effective way either and he has won a Stanley Cup too.

 

The other side of the coin is the Leafs.  Winning two games so far this year, why would they look like they are having fun?  Furthermore, Toronto has been "having fun" for years with weak-minded management.  That team needs the structure.  And I don't see why Derek would say, "despite Babcock."  If anything it's because of Babcock and Lou.  You shouldn't be happy with a loss.  Babcock is notorious for that or do you not see his glares?

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There's only so long you can do the same damn thing and hope it still works over time, strict rigid rules, bans on evolving social media or fan relations to keep the players and fans separated further than the 38th parallel, blowing a stupid vuvuzela... wait what... whoops wrong thread for that one...., before it becomes tired and a source of resentment.

 

That being said, and as others have said, this could just simply be the honeymoon phase of the new regime. I really hope it isn't, cause watching us comeback instead of us being the ones to squander leads, or us actually taking control of a game, is damn good fun

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Lou clearly ran his course here and it was time for a change.  The fact that he was successful for so long allowed him to retain the benefit of the doubt with the new owners (and others), but when the team was no longer getting positive results (and let's face it, Lou's way gets hard to take for several factions when the wins stop coming), with a number of players committed to being here for a while, it was time to move on and try something different.  These players probably feel like that they can breathe a lot easier now, and are enjoying and appreciating their newfound freedoms...and though it's been said many times, it's nice that some deadwood has been trimmed away. 

 

It wasn't like the Leafs were having loads of fun before Lou arrived there, so I don't know how much of what's happening there can be put on him...he inherited a pretty serious mess.  I do think he's going to fail up there though, and pretty badly.  If he really wants to keep being a GM in the NHL, he's probably going to have to start compromising and adjusting some of the more "my way or the highway" parts of his personality.  I don't think he can or will.  I could understand his being that way here, as his run was one of the most successful ever in his era, but if he insists on continuing that with the Leafs, results be damned, then Sterio (not knocking him here) and others who have criticized him for being stubborn and refusing to adapt are going to have some evidence to back up their arguments. 

 

what do you mean "will have some evidence to back up their arguments"

 

lol I have TONS of that already haha

 

i mean... is there really people willing to debate that Lou isn't stubborn and refusing to go out of his way? 

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Devils are getting the bounces and have great goaltending, Leafs are not and have had poor goaltending.  Let me know where these two teams are after the season's half-over.  I think the Leafs will still be under the Devils but I don't think these two teams are far apart.

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what do you mean "will have some evidence to back up their arguments"

lol I have TONS of that already haha

i mean... is there really people willing to debate that Lou isn't stubborn and refusing to go out of his way?

Jesus. Even when people AGREE with you you still have to play the same old broken record.

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Jesus. Even when people AGREE with you you still have to play the same old broken record.

Its not agreeing saying that only IF "future events" happen that we'll have evidence. Thats insinuating that so far we were wrong and have nothing to back it up. Which isnt true.

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what do you mean "will have some evidence to back up their arguments"

 

lol I have TONS of that already haha

 

i mean... is there really people willing to debate that Lou isn't stubborn and refusing to go out of his way?

I think some folks are missing the "lol" and other tongue in cheek internet marks here. Still, I don't get the arguing over the point since what SD is saying is logically correct. What am I missing here?

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what do you mean "will have some evidence to back up their arguments"

 

lol I have TONS of that already haha

 

i mean... is there really people willing to debate that Lou isn't stubborn and refusing to go out of his way? 

 

Your theory is that Lou is stubborn, incapable of changing his MO, etc.  The fact is that his way worked in New Jersey for a long time, as recently as 2012.  It was only after that season that his team stopped making the playoffs on an insanely consistent basis.  Though it wound up not working out at the very end (and Lou wasn't blameless, though downturns will always be inevitable), I can understand why someone with Lou's mentality and track record thought he could eventually turn things around doing it his way.  And in some ways, he did do some things outside his comfort zone:  I think a younger Lou never would've signed Kovy to that insane deal and would've told VBK (if you believe that he was the one truly responsible for that contract) "It's him or me Jeff."    

 

Anyway, if Lou starts doing things differently in Toronto (even if it takes him some time to change), then that really shows he's not stubborn and incapable of doing things differently, and that in itself would blow up the whole "Lou is incapable of ever changing" motif.  Just like we can't go too crazy over what Shero's done here do far, we can't just assume that Lou won't modify his approach.  Lou was untouchable here for a long time (basically from when he hired Lemaire before the '93-'94 season up until near the end of his tenure)...I doubt he'll ever enjoy that kind of power again...loss of power (and Lou's rep has taken some hits in recent years, which I don't think is lost on him) can change people in unforeseen ways. 

 

Like I said in my previous post, I have my doubts about Lou truly being able to significantly modify his approach in Toronto, but I at least have to see him operate up there for a while before engraving it in granite that he absolutely can't...I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and see him actually put together a body of work with the Leafs.  There's no way you're going to do the same. 

 

 

Devils are getting the bounces and have great goaltending, Leafs are not and have had poor goaltending.  Let me know where these two teams are after the season's half-over.  I think the Leafs will still be under the Devils but I don't think these two teams are far apart.

 

So far the Devils' season is off to a fun start, made even more so by the 0-3-1 beginning where the team really looked ragged.  Most fans couldn't have dreamt of an 8-5-1 start.  Who knows how the Devils fare long-term under Shero, but sadly I think there was simply no hope under Lou anymore, and that after a ridiculously long run that saw a lot of success, that it was finally time for changes all-around.  But yeah, once some of the shooting%s (most notably Zajac's and Henrique's) start to normalize and the offense cools off a little, the Devils racking up points at this pace won't continue.   

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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Jesus. Even when people AGREE with you you still have to play the same old broken record.

 

If the topic at hand in this thread about Lou and his stubborn ways, is he really being a broken record?

 

If the topic was something that either didn't have to do with Lou or was very remotely Lou-related and SD just did his shtick, then I would agree with you.  However, I think SD's comments are apt in this case and I don't think he is being a broken record.

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Your theory is that Lou is stubborn, incapable of changing his MO, etc.  The fact is that his way worked in New Jersey for a long time, as recently as 2012.  It was only after that season that his team stopped making the playoffs on an insanely consistent basis.  Though it wound up not working out at the very end (and Lou wasn't blameless, though downturns will always be inevitable), I can understand why someone with Lou's mentality and track record thought he could eventually turn things around doing it his way.  And in some ways, he did do some things outside his comfort zone:  I think a younger Lou never would've signed Kovy to that insane deal and would've told VBK (if you believe that he was the one truly responsible for that contract) "It's him or me Jeff."    

 

Anyway, if Lou starts doing things differently in Toronto (even if it takes him some time to change), then that really shows he's not stubborn and incapable of doing things differently, and that in itself would blow up the whole "Lou is incapable of ever changing" motif.  Just like we can't go too crazy over what Shero's done here do far, we can't just assume that Lou won't modify his approach.  Lou was untouchable here for a long time (basically from when he hired Lemaire before the '93-'94 season up until near the end of his tenure)...I doubt he'll ever enjoy that kind of power again...loss of power (and Lou's rep has taken some hits in recent years, which I don't think is lost on him) can change people in unforeseen ways. 

 

Like I said in my previous post, I have my doubts about Lou truly being able to significantly modify his approach in Toronto, but I at least have to see him operate up there for a while before engraving it in granite that he absolutely can't...I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and see him actually put together a body of work with the Leafs.  There's no way you're going to do the same. 

 

 

 

So far the Devils' season is off to a fun start, made even more so by the 0-3-1 beginning where the team really looked ragged.  Most fans couldn't have dreamt of an 8-5-1 start.  Who knows how the Devils fare long-term under Shero, but sadly I think there was simply no hope under Lou anymore, and that after a ridiculously long run that saw a lot of success, that it was finally time for changes all-around.  But yeah, once some of the shooting%s (most notably Zajac's and Henrique's) start to normalize and the offense cools off a little, the Devils racking up points at this pace won't continue.   

 

I think at the very least there is some truth to that.  Lot's of GM's switch gears due to changes in how the game is played, types of players, etc.  Example is Glen Sather.  When he came in to manage the Rangers, the first few years it looked like an extension of the Neil Smith years.  However by the end of the 2003-04 season he knew that times were changing and his methods weren't working.  Yeah he was somewhat forced by the advent of the cap and other rules, but Lou didn't change with the times and was struggling mightly with the cap for years.  Yes, the team was still good, but with the never-ending coaching turmoil and the fact that they were getting diminishing returns in the playoffs were signaling the end of the good times.

 

The fact that Lou said he doesn't believe in rebuilds and spent the last 3-4 seasons putting old corpses of formerly decent NHL'ers is pretty inexcusable.  I know why he signed them, but when every signing for the past few years have the "expect the worse but hope for the best" mentality, that's not right.  2012 Finals run is looking more and more like a fluke with each passing year and quite frankly, it was very much time for a change and glad we got the new leadership and love how the team is finally starting to act like a 21st century team.

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Devils are getting the bounces and have great goaltending, Leafs are not and have had poor goaltending.  Let me know where these two teams are after the season's half-over.  I think the Leafs will still be under the Devils but I don't think these two teams are far apart.

 

Devils have also had a brutally tough schedule, and are actually pretty solid in possession metrics.

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So far the Devils' season is off to a fun start, made even more so by the 0-3-1 beginning where the team really looked ragged.  Most fans couldn't have dreamt of an 8-5-1 start.  Who knows how the Devils fare long-term under Shero, but sadly I think there was simply no hope under Lou anymore, and that after a ridiculously long run that saw a lot of success, that it was finally time for changes all-around.  But yeah, once some of the shooting%s (most notably Zajac's and Henrique's) start to normalize and the offense cools off a little, the Devils racking up points at this pace won't continue.   

 

The Devils hit 5 posts yesterday.  We lost to the Isles and a couple of bad bounces.  We're getting bad breaks too.  Let's not act as if the Devils have had any more good luck than they're opponents.  

 

Also, Henrique went 5 games without a point.  Zajac started the year with 4 games without a point.  Having two lines that can produce is supposed to mask when players go through slumps.  Tlusty hasn't gotten a point in forever.

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I think at the very least there is some truth to that.  Lot's of GM's switch gears due to changes in how the game is played, types of players, etc.  Example is Glen Sather.  When he came in to manage the Rangers, the first few years it looked like an extension of the Neil Smith years.  However by the end of the 2003-04 season he knew that times were changing and his methods weren't working.  Yeah he was somewhat forced by the advent of the cap and other rules, but Lou didn't change with the times and was struggling mightly with the cap for years.  Yes, the team was still good, but with the never-ending coaching turmoil and the fact that they were getting diminishing returns in the playoffs were signaling the end of the good times.

 

The fact that Lou said he doesn't believe in rebuilds and spent the last 3-4 seasons putting old corpses of formerly decent NHL'ers is pretty inexcusable.  I know why he signed them, but when every signing for the past few years have the "expect the worse but hope for the best" mentality, that's not right.  2012 Finals run is looking more and more like a fluke with each passing year and quite frankly, it was very much time for a change and glad we got the new leadership and love how the team is finally starting to act like a 21st century team.

 

I think the second half of 2011 and most of 2012 changed everything, in a lot of ways, as far as Lou's perception of the team went.  I think Lou kept thinking there was one last run to be squeezed out of his team, while Marty and Patrik and others were still around. 

 

Re:  the bolded...I pointed out as those signings were happening that Lou was building a lot of "if" teams.  Omar Minaya was doing the same thing for a while, and suffice it to say when you have long list of "if this guy who's always getting hurt can stay healthy and if that guy scores 25 goals like he last did four years ago"-type moves, chances are it's not going to work out. 

 

No, Lou didn't change his MO much with the Devils, but part of that was that he never had those 2+ bottoming-out years where he had to step back and say "Geez, maybe it's time to change it up"...not until the end, anyway, and I think his refusal to change at the very end clearly cost him his job (or at the very least, changed his influence drastically).  I can understand why some criticize him (some more harshly than others), though I think some of the people who do it don't always realize how hard it is to keep a team competitive for as long as Lou did it.  These days a lot of GMs are lucky to last more than five years in any one place. 

 

I've said multiple times that it was absolutely time for a change and time for Lou to go...if anything, I thought keeping him around initially when Shero first arrived was inviting serious disaster. 

 

Though it didn't end pretty here, Lou's legacy with Devils has been written and few will kill him too much for the rough years at the end as time goes on.  But the Toronto years are going to define him in a different way if they're disastrous...he'll be seen as this humorless stuck-in-the-mud curmudgeon who saw the game pass him by and couldn't keep up.  Like I said, his Devils' legacy is intact, but his overall legacy (though remaining strong) is still being defined...he ensured that when he took the Leafs job. 

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The Devils hit 5 posts yesterday.  We lost to the Isles and a couple of bad bounces.  We're getting bad breaks too.  Let's not act as if the Devils have had any more good luck than they're opponents.  

 

Also, Henrique went 5 games without a point.  Zajac started the year with 4 games without a point.  Having two lines that can produce is supposed to mask when players go through slumps.  Tlusty hasn't gotten a point in forever.

 

If you think Zajac is going to keep popping in pucks at over 30% and Henrique will do the same at over 20%, God bless.  Palmieri has never really shown this kind of production either...not saying he can't keep it up, sometimes guys like him come to a new team and get more playing time and simply become a great fit. 

 

Anyway, your whole schtick is unbridled optimism and then some.  Sure, I hope this continues and the Devils somehow surprise the sh!t out of everyone over the course of 82 games and challenge for a playoff berth for a while, but I'm not banking on it 14 games into a season where most of us thought the Devils would be drafting in the Top 5.  I need to see a lot more.

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I think the second half of 2011 and most of 2012 changed everything, in a lot of ways, as far as Lou's perception of the team went.  I think Lou kept thinking there was one last run to be squeezed out of his team, while Marty and Patrik and others were still around. 

 

Re:  the bolded...I pointed out as those signings were happening that Lou was building a lot of "if" teams.  Omar Minaya was doing the same thing for a while, and suffice it to say when you have long list of "if this guy who's always getting hurt can stay healthy and if that guy scores 25 goals like he last did four years ago"-type moves, chances are it's not going to work out. 

 

No, Lou didn't change his MO much with the Devils, but part of that was that he never had those 2+ bottoming-out years where he had to step back and say "Geez, maybe it's time to change it up"...not until the end, anyway, and I think his refusal to change at the very end clearly cost him his job (or at the very least, changed his influence drastically).  I can understand why some criticize him (some more harshly than others), though I think some of the people who do it don't always realize how hard it is to keep a team competitive for as long as Lou did it.  These days a lot of GMs are lucky to last more than five years in any one place. 

 

I've said multiple times that it was absolutely time for a change and time for Lou to go...if anything, I thought keeping him around initially when Shero first arrived was inviting serious disaster. 

 

Though it didn't end pretty here, Lou's legacy with Devils has been written and few will kill him too much for the rough years at the end as time goes on.  But the Toronto years are going to define him in a different way if they're disastrous...he'll be seen as this humorless stuck-in-the-mud curmudgeon who saw the game pass him by and couldn't keep up.  Like I said, his Devils' legacy is intact, but his overall legacy (though remaining strong) is still being defined...he ensured that when he took the Leafs job. 

 

And if I were a betting man, I would bet it does end with disaster.  Hell you said the same thing and I think a lot of people are at least thinking or saying the same thing too.  Everyone else sees it but him.  That will just further solidify his critics points about him being stubborn.  I do appreciate everything Lou has done but this is so far pretty sad to see.

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And if I were a betting man, I would bet it does end with disaster.  Hell you said the same thing and I think a lot of people are at least thinking or saying the same thing too.  Everyone else sees it but him.  That will just further solidify his critics points about him being stubborn.  I do appreciate everything Lou has done but this is so far pretty sad to see.

 

Yeah, I kind of wish he'd just have called it a day and sailed off into the retirement sunset, or became some kind of consultant or advisor to the NHL.  But it ain't my call.

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