New York Mets 2016 Season Thread

['7']

Atrocious job by Cabrera there. 1st and 2nd, 0 out. DP grounder. He really needs the bat out of his hands with RISP. Just put the bunt on and have 2nd and 3rd 1 out for Lagares.

['7']

0-4 already with RISP?

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Overrated Matz gives up the big bomb.  Unclutch hitting and unclutch pitching.  Nothing new here.  Exactly why I can't take this team that seriously right now.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Colorado Rockies 1976

['7']

And that's game...nothing going right for them today

just don't get swept

['7']

Heck of a throw by Cespedes though. He wasn't deep in the outfield but, wow about as perfect a throw to home as I've ever seen.

['7']

Something about this lineup just doesn't click. It doesn't work. I think it's mostly the Long philosophy.

The whole is LESS THAN the sum of its parts. And it is inhumanly unclutch. Look at the drech the Phillies throw out there. That offense should not under any circumstances have only like 12 less runs than us. 

Will Conforto revert back to his future star form?

Will Duda be at least as good as Loney with power?

I don't get how bad they are. Even without Duda/Wright(who wasn't good anyway)/and Conforto they should not be one of the worst offenses in the league. They should be maybe 22nd-23rd AT WORST.

And we need a d'Arnaud who can at least slug about .470. Time for him to start hitting and hitting for power. He didn't just come back from injury yesterday

Edited July 19, 2016 by '7'

['7']

And Reyes does what he's always done as a Met. 2 out and a RISP. Grounds out meekly.

['7']

Mets are at .209 with RISP for the season

RISP and 2 outs? An unfathomably unclutch .166. 29th is the Dodgers at .192. 26 points higher than us.

And what team has scored the fewest runs in baseball from the 7th inning on? Of course the Mets. Even the Braves have more.

Edited July 19, 2016 by '7'

[NJDevs4978]

26 minutes ago, '7' said:

Something about this lineup just doesn't click. It doesn't work. I think it's mostly the Long philosophy.

The whole is LESS THAN the sum of its parts.

That's kind of an apt description.  And some of that is just the fact this whole lineup's atrocious in the clutch (sabes people that think clutch is just luck or random need to watch this Met team :P).  But it just seems like a little late '80's/early '90's feel where they keep trying to jam square pegs into round holes not only defensively but offensively - all this nonsense talk about Reyes taking balls in CF and all these other guys playing out of position just to accomodate scrubs like Reyes and the fact they have three corner outfielders who can hit and a CF that can't hit.  

And I'm sorry Reyes just should not be a leadoff hitter at this point of his career, really he was a borderline leadoff hitter at his peak batting-wise but was only there cause he had electric speed.

Edited July 19, 2016 by NJDevs4978

['7']

Another idiotic part of the Long philosophy (saw it just now) is that they hack at EVERYTHING in the 5th and 6th inning. That actively helps pitchers hang around longer. Just now...6 pitch inning. Inexplicably, Cespedes popped up first pitch, as does Neil walker who's sunk down to .247, which is 23 points below his career average

It seems like the Mets just want to forfeit and get this game over with. Rizzo hit that home run and the Mets crawled up into a ball and quit.

['7']

Seth Lugo's in, white flag is up

[NJDevs4978]

Walker's been awful since April with a .224 BA with a .311 OBP with 7 HR and 21 RBI in 241 PA.

['7']

1 minute ago, NJDevs4978 said:

Walker's been awful since April with a .224 BA with a .311 OBP with 7 HR and 21 RBI in 241 PA.

Yea I thought he's been pretty bad. Don't want him back next year at all. I mean his overall stats do sort of project to a typical Walker season, but he's been very bad for a very long stretch here. And Cabrera on pace for only 55 rbi in 585 ab's is very bad

[NJDevs4978]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Overrated Matz gives up the big bomb.  Unclutch hitting and unclutch pitching.  Nothing new here.  Exactly why I can't take this team that seriously right now.

I'm a bit loath to get on him cause he is pitching hurt and he did manage a couple good outings before this but he didn't do the job tonight.  You wonder how many of these it'll take before they shut him down too.

['7']

Wilmer was 11-21...then 0-5 which immediately got him scrubbed from the lineup. At least he gets us on the board here.

Kinda have to play him now. He has 6 home runs over his last 29 at bats.

It will never happen but I'd play him over Walker.

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by '7'

[NJDevs4978]

1 minute ago, '7' said:

Wilmer was 11-21...then 0-5 which immediately got him scrubbed from the lineup. At least he gets us on the board here.

Kinda have to play him now. 

It will never happen but I'd play him over Walker.

 

Honestly they need to get to the point where 'you hit or you sit', one of Terry's lines from last year.  Pretty much nobody but Grandy and Cespedes should be on scholarship at this point.  Cabrera too, more cause of his D than his offense.  Loney should at least play against righties till he stops hitting.  It is comical they played Wilmer forever when he wasn't hitting then got him out of the lineup when he was.

Edited July 19, 2016 by NJDevs4978

['7']

14 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

Honestly they need to get to the point where 'you hit or you sit', one of Terry's lines from last year.  Pretty much nobody but Grandy and Cespedes should be on scholarship at this point.  Cabrera too, more cause of his D than his offense.  Loney should at least play against righties till he stops hitting.  It is comical they played Wilmer forever when he wasn't hitting then got him out of the lineup when he was.

Yes the gauntlet really needs to be thrown down. And Long as to be shown the door. The solo HR extravaganza just isn't going to cut it. Too much feast or famine on this team and the famine is growing awfully long. A league worst RISP and RISP with two outs...somebody needs to take the fall.

It's a poor team philosophy, a poor approach, and a poor way to construct a lineup. 

That's why I'm not totally against Conforto being here. If he can come back and hit, then he needs to be in the lineup one way or another. Even if we have to do something ridiculous like putting him in center until the late innings when Lagares comes in. Or rolling with Conforto in right and Granderson in center and then mixing things up in the late innings. But we have to get bats in there. Lagares I don't will ever put it together to where he'll be a consistent full year .260-.320 guy who can steal some bases. He's been ok of late but...ultimately Conforto's upside is something like 25hr 90rbi...if not better. This guy has to play.

Maybe Duda makes a difference. He is a power threat and he does get on base.

Even before Murphy was Babe Murphy...I still trusted him in a big spot more so than any other Met (at the plate, heavens no in the field) he was probably our best pure clutch hitter for several seasons, it just went forgotten or underappreciated because we were not a very good team, but when we did get some nice/big hits late...it was usually Murphy.

Nobody has filled that void this year. Not even come close to it.

Edited July 19, 2016 by '7'

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I like Neil Walker, and think he'll get it going again...but he needs to take a seat.  Guy is doing way too little right now.  But as we know all too well...guys can do nothing forever without being held accountable for it in Metland.

['7']

Yea. I mean Has pointed out how prolonged it's been. Only 21 rbi since April. Very little since that torrid start. But he's been very good in the field and generally isn't "sticks out like a sore thumb" slumping player (Wright and Duda are of that ilk)

2 days off won't kill him. I think the Mets are too married to Cabrera at SS and Walker at 2b. Suddenly we're not such a train wreck defensively up the middle. Great. But we've gotten substandard production from them at the plate for quite a while now.

['7']

Marlins went into the 9th down 2-1 vs philly. Had a man on 2nd, 2 out. Yelich doubles him home and the Marlins win in extras

They're now the 2nd Wild Card behind the Dodgers. Mets are out of the playoffs. And once we get swept by the Cubs and Philly rolls over and dies for Florida, we have a very real chance of entering Marlins Park with the Fish primed to bury us for the season.

It's getting ugly. This is real do or die...as in Thor needs to go 8 innings 1 run if we have a chance of winning tomorrow.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

10 hours ago, '7' said:

Yea. I mean Has pointed out how prolonged it's been. Only 21 rbi since April. Very little since that torrid start. But he's been very good in the field and generally isn't "sticks out like a sore thumb" slumping player (Wright and Duda are of that ilk)

2 days off won't kill him. I think the Mets are too married to Cabrera at SS and Walker at 2b. Suddenly we're not such a train wreck defensively up the middle. Great. But we've gotten substandard production from them at the plate for quite a while now.

To their credit, they have played some terrific defense indeed.  But guys have to start hitting. 

Yeah, they are pretty much having their typical years offensively...I do think Walker will get going, and I can't see Cabrera not doing anything with RISP forever. 

But NYP's Mike Vaccaro pretty much nailed it...said Terry needs to start practicing what he preaches when it comes to the "hit or sit" crap. 

Even though this is small sample size stuff (man I get sick of saying "small sample size"), to me it's getting close to do-or-die with Reyes.  He's gotten 10 games (mostly at Flores' expense) to show that he can be a significant upgrade, or at the very least, be a leadoff-type hitter that could at least be better than 2016 Granderson (the 2015 Grandy did a fine job in the leadoff spot). 

Well, here's what the Mets have gotten out of him so far...and as we know, the SLG% is making everything look better...we also know that he's not going to keep hitting HRs, which he wasn't even asked to do...he was brought here to get on base.  Like Has alluded to, at his peak, Reyes was a pretty good (and occasionally electrifying) leadoff hitter.  But never really great.  Not even close. 

And in this, yes, small sample, Reyes is hitting like a declining leadoff man who was never great at drawing walks in the first place, and who is seeing his early negatives somewhat offset by three HRs (solo of course) that, based on his career and his most recent seasons, feel very "random-event":

10 GP, 44 PA, 40 AB, 9 H, 3 2B, 3 HR, 3 BB, 6 K, .225/.273/.525 slash.  His SLG%s were .398 and .378 the past two years. 

If TC wants to give him a few more games to get it going, fine, but he's done nothing to deserve that "scholarship" treatment.  If an inconsistent-but-hitting Flores can be shoved aside for not-even-hitting-AA-pitching Reyes, then a currently non-hitting Reyes (who's pretty lucky to even have a job right now) can be shoved aside for Flores.

And this isn't any major endorsement of Flores...it wouldn't surprise me if he went ice-cold if he was given back the everyday third-base job.  But I don't think Reyes should just continue to be allowed to be kind of meh-ish, as though he's still in his prime and a sure thing to break out.  At some point, you gotta make the very most of the opportunity that was gifted to you.  Reyes is running out of time (or at least he should be). 

I can't entirely rule out that Reyes may be able to make some nice contributions here...but I hate the whole way this was handled.  Rushed up when he wasn't even hitting minor-leaguers.  Given unconditional playing time despite not getting on base much when that's exactly what he was brought here for...why bat him leadoff if it's not his job to get on base?  This has felt like the baseball equivalent of making fetch happen, and it's getting closer and closer to the point where the Mets will have to decide if Reyes can really help this team, or if he's just continuing to decline. 

And the Mets with Reyes are 4-6.  No, of course it doesn't ever come down to one player, and it's only 10 games.  But he hasn't made much of an impact.

-----------------------------------------------------

11 hours ago, NJDevs4978 said:

I'm a bit loath to get on him cause he is pitching hurt and he did manage a couple good outings before this but he didn't do the job tonight.  You wonder how many of these it'll take before they shut him down too.

That's fair Has, and I know I've brought it up before, but there's just been too many of these "meh...not disastrous, but meh" outings from the starting pitching when better was needed.  It's somehow a little more annoying with Matz because he seems destined to be that "It's always something" guy.  It's kind of funny how deGrom has really flown under the radar...he's actually really been pretty consistent throughout this year.  And Colon has really managed to keep those infamous implosion outings to a bare minimum. 

Mets have to figure out what the deal is with Matz and Syndergaard soon...if they're not capable of performing to their best, or struggling to even come close, then for once as an organization, don't be so fvcking wishy-washy and make a fvcking decision.  If they're better off getting bone spur surgery for their long-term health, then just shut them down.  Yeah, it will suck, and sure, performing when you're less than 100% or in some pain is part of the gig, but it seems pointless to make these guys keep going out there if they can't shut teams down...this offense isn't capable of supporting them consistently if they're going to keep giving up 3+ runs per start from here on out.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

14 hours ago, '7' said:

Torre pre Yankees (which is what he should be judged on primarily) wasn't a bad manager. Kind of middling. Some ups and downs. Basically fell ass backwards into a perfect situation with the Yankees and didn't screw it up. But I don't and have never seen him as this perfect "Saint Joe" where he's this almighty trusted revered baseball figure. He completely bungled the Utley situation last year and at 76, frankly I don't think he's up to this position

Balls and strikes will always be argued. Sometimes it's done just to fire up a dead dugout, or sometimes the guy behind the plate is just so inept that he needs to hear it. And I'm sorry...how can clowns like Angel Hernandez, Joe West, and CB Bucknor still be employed? Bucknor and Hernandez seem like they miss calls deliberately to get back at people and settle scores...they want to antagonize teams, players, fans and managers.

The best umpires are like the best offensive linemen. You don't hear their names often. I mean I knew of Jim Joyce but the first time he ever made news was a few years ago when he blew that perfect game. And people were astounded that he could possibly miss a call because he was so respected for being low key and accurate.

That's what the MLB has to strive for in the future, fit, eagle eyed inconspicuous umps with long fuses.

Agree 100% with this post.  When you think about it, why WOULDN'T guys like Angel Hernandez, Joe West, and CB Bucknor feel like they can do whatever the hell they want, without having to pay a serious price.  In 1990 (I was watching the game), in a Mets-Phillies game played at Shea, Pat Combs hit Dwight Gooden with a pitch (I think Gooden had hit at least one Phillie hitter earlier, so everyone's dander was up...turns out it was two), and Gooden charged the mound...benches and bullpens predictably emptied.  Joe West actually picked up Philly pitcher Dennis Cook and slammed him to the turf (I couldn't find any video of it, but it was gratuitous and ridiculous...I remember Francesa really ripping West for it the next day)...imagine if Cook had actually landed wrong and gotten hurt.  Also keep in mind that people were complaining about West's BS back THEN! 

He wasn't even suspended for it (just reprimanded)...and West almost sounded disappointed that he couldn't physically inject himself into brawls anymore:

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-08-30/sports/sp-100_1_joe-west

And read Richard Phillips' quote...these fvckers absolutely can't stand it when they're taken to task for ANYTHING...even when they're COMPLETELY WRONG.  No wonder the umpiring culture is what it is today...this entitled "we should be untouchable and free to do whatever we want" sh!t started a long time ago. 

PHILADELPHIA — Bill White, National League president, angered major league umpires Wednesday by issuing a statement criticizing umpire Joe West's recent handling of an ejection while revealing that West has been ordered not to touch a player, even when breaking up a fight.

"I'm absolutely stunned," said Richie Phillips, umpires' union general counsel, of the statement. "This lack of support has never, ever happened before. It sends a signal to the players that it's open season on umpires."

White's statement was in response to West's comments after a meeting here Tuesday between the umpire and the NL president.

The meeting dealt with the way West slammed Philadelphia pitcher Dennis Cook to the ground during the Phillies' recent brawl with the New York Mets. It also dealt with how West recently ejected Phillie outfielder Von Hayes.

After the meeting, West said: "As of today, the umpires are not to become involved in any more fights. If (players) want to fight, let them go kill each other. If it gets that out of hand, we'll call the National Guard."

Another good article...Phillips actually fvcking DEFENDED West in this one:

http://articles.philly.com/1990-08-15/sports/25930355_1_phillies-and-mets-phillies-catcher-darren-daulton-dennis-cook

In the middle of last Thursday night's brawl between the Phillies and Mets at Shea Stadium, second base umpire Joe West intercepted Philadelphia lefthander Dennis Cook and slammed him to the turf.

In the immediate aftermath, Cook was incredulous. "West walked up behind me, picked me up, then threw me down," he said. "That's fine and dandy, him throwing me down. But I ought to be able to do the opposite - bust him in the chops. If I do that, I'm out of baseball."

 

Richie Phillips, the Philadelphia-based general counsel for the Major League Umpires Association, said yesterday he has no knowledge of any complaint by the players' union and defended West, who is in his 13th year as a major league ump.

"I am not aware that the players association is contemplating any action," Phillips said. "Further, while I did not see the incident, Joe West is a very fine umpire.

"From what I gather, Joe did a very good job at breaking up a potentially violent altercation and that he quite possibly, bordering on probably, helped avoid serious bodily injury to players."

IDIOT...West was VERY lucky that Cook didn't get hurt himself...and if he had, that would've been 100% on West.

Yep, the seeds were sown for this sh!t a long long time ago. 

Video of the actual game (brawl starts at about the 1:53:00 mark)...unfortunately this was the Philly feed, which didn't show the West throwdown (the Met broadcast did, in perfect frame).  Roid boy Darren Daulton got a lot of nice cheap sucker-punches on Gooden:

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[thecoffeecake]

On 4/18/2016 at 9:51 PM, '7' said:

What Met fan is commuting to Philly from NYC, LI, BK, or even the Northern Jersey Suburbs for an April Monday night game. The fans you see there are from Philly or the South Jersey suburbs

And by the way, don't put us in the same class as Rag fans. Mets fans are their cheering for their team, not starting fights or acting like a$$holes.

A few of them may be, but Philly and South Jersey are almost completely devoid of Mets fans. The Yankees, while a distant second, are the second team in the Philly metro. Red Sox are number three. The Mets don't register. The Mets a true New York team. Real New Yorkers like the Mets, and they have almost no following from people without New York connections. There are plenty of Mets fans in Central Jersey that are making that trip, it's way easier than getting to Queens (which is why Central Jersey was a Philly sports area before the rush of New Yorkers moving down). But most people are coming down from the NY area.

Mets fans are largely just as bad as Rags fans, because a vast majority of Mets fans ARE Rangers fans from New York. I'm surrounded by Mets fans back home, and they're nothing like the Mets fans up in New York. I went to plenty of games at Shea and Old Yankee, and those people are the absolute lowest of the low in terms of sports fans. Obnoxious and abrasive know-nothings, just like Rags fans. The Jersey fans on both sides are different.

 

 I honestly can't see the Mets not making a run and taking the East this year. Even with Dusty at the helm, the Nats just aren't as talented, and even with their vets, don't have the leadership or will in that clubhouse. They went up and spanked you guys, but I definitely think this is the high water mark for them this season. I think the Nats don't get a Wild Card game this year.

['7']

50 minutes ago, thecoffeecake said:

A few of them may be, but Philly and South Jersey are almost completely devoid of Mets fans. The Yankees, while a distant second, are the second team in the Philly metro. Red Sox are number three. The Mets don't register. The Mets a true New York team. Real New Yorkers like the Mets, and they have almost no following from people without New York connections. There are plenty of Mets fans in Central Jersey that are making that trip, it's way easier than getting to Queens (which is why Central Jersey was a Philly sports area before the rush of New Yorkers moving down). But most people are coming down from the NY area.

Mets fans are largely just as bad as Rags fans, because a vast majority of Mets fans ARE Rangers fans from New York. I'm surrounded by Mets fans back home, and they're nothing like the Mets fans up in New York. I went to plenty of games at Shea and Old Yankee, and those people are the absolute lowest of the low in terms of sports fans. Obnoxious and abrasive know-nothings, just like Rags fans. The Jersey fans on both sides are different.

 

 I honestly can't see the Mets not making a run and taking the East this year. Even with Dusty at the helm, the Nats just aren't as talented, and even with their vets, don't have the leadership or will in that clubhouse. They went up and spanked you guys, but I definitely think this is the high water mark for them this season. I think the Nats don't get a Wild Card game this year.

The Mets just played 3 games in Philadelphia and had more Mets fans in the building than Philly fans. The Mets used to regularly put 30k of their own fans at the Vet in the 80's. Look at most of the license plates in the parking lot. Almost no NY, all NJ and Penn. I would gather in the Phillies sphere of influence the Mets fans are a regular 15-25% of those suburbs.

You're just in denial. Wish it away all you want but the Phillies are back to being Jacksonville Jaguars level of interest. The natural order has returned.

And the Mets are done in the division. Cooked. Nagging injuries all year and under-performing talent. A wild card is our only way in. Washington is too determined, injury free, lucky, and have guys way outperforming expectations. 

Edited July 19, 2016 by '7'

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

14 hours ago, '7' said:

25 minutes ago, '7' said:

The Mets just played 3 games in Philadelphia and had more Mets fans in the building than Philly fans. The Mets used to regularly put 30k of their own fans at the Vet in the 80's. Look at most of the license plates in the parking lot. Almost no NY, all NJ and Penn. I would gather in the Phillies sphere of influence the Mets fans are a regular 15-25% of those suburbs.

You're just in denial. Wish it away all you want but the Phillies are back to being Jacksonville Jaguars level of interest. The natural order has returned.

And the Mets are done in the division. Cooked. Nagging injuries all year and under-performing talent. A wild card is our only way in. Washington is too determined, injury free, lucky, and have guys way outperforming expectations. 

 

re:  the bolded...I still think Washington could blow this thing...at the very least, I don't think they're good enough to leave the teams chasing them in the dust. 

I'd say Washington has been healthier and gotten some luck.  I don't really see this killer determination though.  You've got Murph and Ramos having huge years with their bats, but no one else is really lighting it up offensively (Harper hasn't been bad but he definitely hasn't been 2015 Harper).  Their pitching has gotten hot again, but they've had some valleys. 

Of course, the $1 million question is can the Mets and/or Marlins actually beat a beatable team?  If Syndergaard and Matz were 100%, I'd say the Mets would have a good shot, but they just seem to be snakebit this year with injuries.  The one thing I will say about the injured players lost is how much of a loss were they really?  Wright was about as painful to watch as it got...despite having some good little bursts, it felt more and more like, had he kept playing, his numbers would've kept sinking to the point of becoming embarrassing.  This year's Harvey was one of the worst starting pitchers in baseball.  And Doofus is Doofus...I think he would've eventually started drawing more walks, but he's a clumsy fielder and a strikeout machine who always gets exposed against better arms, as we all know...maybe he would've had a HR burst or two against some softer pitching staffs, but you can make an argument that James Loney, despite possessing a much different skill set than Duda, has actually been a better fit...his problem is that this year's version of Loney would be terrific in a lineup where guys were actually capable of driving him home, or were on base so that he could drive them home.  We are all too familiar with the issues surrounding the Met offense:  too little hits, too many strikeouts, no ability to hit in the clutch, and lots of cosmetic solo homers like last night's. 

But anyway, I think a hot and healthy Syndergaard and Matz could've overcome the offensive follies (which ain't going away...just don't see it).  They're going to need one of those meh-on-paper deals that unexpectedly pays off in a huge way.  The problem with Sandy is that when he goes for bargain under-the-radar guys, most of the time they come here and do pretty much nothing.  If Sandy actually pulled the trigger on a Bastardo-for-Niese deal, will it be any surprise if Niese stinks up the joint?  And Bastardo suddenly figures it all out?

And you and Has touched on it before, but Long (and Warthen) need to go.  And here's a free scouting report:  if you're an opposing pitching staff and your pitcher is 3-2 on any Met batter, throw a fastball right down the middle.  Apparently Long's philosophy is to have the hitter hope for Ball 4 as often as possible, no matter what.