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Around the League: 2016-17 edition


MadDog2020
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25 minutes ago, Derek21 said:

Crosby goal for number 1,000. OT winner from Malkin and a assist. 1,002 points. In style. Top 5 when it's over and that's despite missing significant time. 

Top 5 what? Fowards? Probably. If you're talking top 5 players in general not so sure. Would you put him in over a Bobby Orr? Or whoever you consider the best goalie of all time?

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9 hours ago, Nicomo said:

Top 5 what? Fowards? Probably. If you're talking top 5 players in general not so sure. Would you put him in over a Bobby Orr? Or whoever you consider the best goalie of all time?

Top 5 in scoring probably

 

57 minutes ago, Devilsfan118 said:

I don't think it's debatable that Crosby is one of the best ever.

He's putting up ridiculous numbers in the lowest scoring era in history.

Pains me to say it.

Cannot stand him either, but fvck he's a great hockey player

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12 hours ago, Nicomo said:

Top 5 what? Fowards? Probably. If you're talking top 5 players in general not so sure. Would you put him in over a Bobby Orr? Or whoever you consider the best goalie of all time?

I believe when his career is over, Crosby will be a top 5 player all-time. I wouldn't put him or anyone over Orr. He's number 1 in my book for how dominant he was. Imagine a complete defenseman who won the scoring title with over 100 points, Hart Trophy, Conn Smythe while being unreal defensively and had a great plus/minus. Orr had it all. I wish I was old enough to see him play. 

Current list:

1.Orr

2.Gretzky

3.Howe 

4.Messier

5.Lemieux

I don't think any goalie is a top 5. The goalie issue is always a great debate. Comparing different eras. Who's better? Sawchuk, Esposito, Broda Hall, Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, etc. Hasek's the best I've ever seen. And he won 1 Cup as a starter on a loaded Detroit roster. But had a great postseason. But I will always equate him with the Sabres for his flat out dominance in Vezinas and Harts. Numbers that I had never seen. Unorthodox style. And he was a slinky who was my height (5'11 and a half). Not big like Marty or the other cookie cutter goalies we see now. 

I believe Crosby is a much better overall player than Mario. My Dad thinks he dwarfs Gretzky defensively too. Sid can do it all. What if he didn't miss that year due to the concussion? How many more points? How many more Cups? Yeah. I went there. He's amazing. I've never seen a more dedicated star player in terms of work ethic and skill level. Who has better hands in front of the net? The best backhand too with Datsyuk gone. Someone mentioned Toews. They aren't even in the same stratosphere. Toews is a great leader. But he's never reached 80 points. He's a terrific two-way center who steps up in big games. Hence the 3 Cups. But no Kane or Keith or Seabrook. No Cups either. Those Chicago teams are loaded. Toews isn't even top 100. That list was a joke. Any list minus Malkin can't be taken seriously. There were other omissions. I don't think Keith is a top 100 either even with his 2 Norris Trophies and Conn Smythe. They put Joe Nieuwendyk in the top 100. Why? Because he won 3 Cups and a Smythe with Dallas. He was very good. Not great.

The problem with such lists is it's subjective. We all have strong opinions. My Dad would probably put Howe 2 over Gretzky. I took Wayne because he was unbelievable. He has unbreakable records. More assists than points. I would put Jagr right after Mario. Mario was better. People forget that. But Jagr is a living legend. He now is at 1990 points. 2nd all-time. Only 1 Hart. How is that possible? He got robbed in '05-06 with them giving it to Jumbo Joe when he put up 92 points with the Sharks after that awful deal the Bruins made. Jagr did more for the Rangers that year. Franchise marks in goals, points, power play goals and shots for a single season. They were picked last. 

Who is your 5?

 

Edited by Derek21
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I would go with Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Hasek and probably Crosby jumping over Lidstrom at this point.  As pointed out, Crosby has a much better 200 ft game than Lemieux and Mario had even more of his career wiped out by injuries/illness.   Not that it is necessarily a prerequisite to be on a top 5 list but I have a hard time putting Jagr or Messier up there because at no point do I remember considering them the best player in the game at any point in time.   

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My top 5:

1. Lemieux

2. Gretzky

3. Orr

4. Jagr

5. Howe

The fact that Lemieux was a dominant force in both the early 90's and the early 2000's carries a lot of weight for me, guy was a dominant force in more than one era of the game, which can't be said for a lot of guys. Gretzky carried a 1.92 p/g through his career, Lemieux finished with a 1.88, playing part of his career in a much tighter era of hockey and after coming back from his bout with cancer and numerous other ailments.

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8 hours ago, Lateralous said:

I would go with Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Hasek and probably Crosby jumping over Lidstrom at this point.  As pointed out, Crosby has a much better 200 ft game than Lemieux and Mario had even more of his career wiped out by injuries/illness.   Not that it is necessarily a prerequisite to be on a top 5 list but I have a hard time putting Jagr or Messier up there because at no point do I remember considering them the best player in the game at any point in time.   

I mean, Ovechkin has been the best player a number of years he's been in the league  (or at least right there with Crosby), but he doesn't even seem to be in the conversation atm. Jagr's longevity is insane though,  and Messier has the numbers, and all those Cups.

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1 hour ago, Devilsfan118 said:

Best overall vs. best pure goalscorer is a different story.

Come at me Njdevs, but I think without a doubt when Ovechkin retires he will be considered the best pure goal scorer of all time.

Hard to put anyone ahead of Gretzky, but then again the era Gretzky played in was so different. Maybe Ovi would have put up even better numbers if he played back in the 80's. 

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9 hours ago, Nicomo said:

I mean, Ovechkin has been the best player a number of years he's been in the league  (or at least right there with Crosby), but he doesn't even seem to be in the conversation atm. Jagr's longevity is insane though,  and Messier has the numbers, and all those Cups.

He isn't because his team hasn't won and Ovechkin isn't a complete player. I love him. But he's more pure sniper. He also can make plays with the puck but his assists have dropped off. Maybe due to the Caps balance. Or maybe he's never going to put up total number of points he used to. He isn't asked to do as much. He doesn't penalty kill. And Ovechkin has never been a 200 foot player. He's also lost to Crosby twice head to head in the second round. Unfortunately, it could be a hat trick due to the awful playoff format. The idea that that the Caps and Pens should be forced to play each other in the second round is terrible. They need to wake up and go back to 1-8. And don't reward the other division if they can't have more points. The Metro is a zillion times better. I would not give the Atlantic winner home ice unless they have more points. I hate the current system. It sucks. This is what the players voted for. I am already bored. 

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9 hours ago, Devilsfan118 said:

Best overall vs. best pure goalscorer is a different story.

Come at me Njdevs, but I think without a doubt when Ovechkin retires he will be considered the best pure goal scorer of all time.

My Dad would rate Bossy ahead of Ovechkin in terms of best finisher. Look at the numbers he put up for those Islanders teams. There are other great finishers. Brett Hull. Bobby. Maurice Richard. Pavel Bure. Gretzky's single season record and NHL record will never be broken. Gartner was a heck of a sniper. Blazing speed and the shot to match. Money on breakaways. 

Ovechkin is at 551 goals in 896 games entering today's annoying 12:30 game at MSG. I'm sure he'll add to it today. He is 31. He could reach 800 by the time he's done. So, maybe you have a point. 

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On 2/19/2017 at 2:19 AM, Derek21 said:

My Dad would rate Bossy ahead of Ovechkin in terms of best finisher. Look at the numbers he put up for those Islanders teams. There are other great finishers. Brett Hull. Bobby. Maurice Richard. Pavel Bure. Gretzky's single season record and NHL record will never be broken. Gartner was a heck of a sniper. Blazing speed and the shot to match. Money on breakaways. 

Ovechkin is at 551 goals in 896 games entering today's annoying 12:30 game at MSG. I'm sure he'll add to it today. He is 31. He could reach 800 by the time he's done. So, maybe you have a point. 

I'm glad you mentioned Bossy because I was just about to come in here and drop that name.  I am pretty sure he had like, 9 50-goal seasons, in a row.  NINE.  FIFTY goals.  IN A ROW.  That is un fvck1ng believeable.  Hardly anyone scores 50 anymore.  Hardly anyone scores 50 back to back.  Even in the "live puck era", it was hard to score 50, and hard to score 50 back to back.  He did it.  NINE times lol.   

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3 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I'm glad you mentioned Bossy because I was just about to come in here and drop that name.  I am pretty sure he had like, 9 50-goal seasons, in a row.  NINE.  FIFTY goals.  IN A ROW.  That is un fvck1ng believeable.  Hardly anyone scores 50 anymore.  Hardly anyone scores 50 back to back.  Even in the "live puck era", it was hard to score 50, and hard to score 50 back to back.  He did it.  NINE times lol.   

 

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On 2/19/2017 at 2:19 AM, Derek21 said:

My Dad would rate Bossy ahead of Ovechkin in terms of best finisher. Look at the numbers he put up for those Islanders teams. There are other great finishers. Brett Hull. Bobby. Maurice Richard. Pavel Bure. Gretzky's single season record and NHL record will never be broken. Gartner was a heck of a sniper. Blazing speed and the shot to match. Money on breakaways. 

Ovechkin is at 551 goals in 896 games entering today's annoying 12:30 game at MSG. I'm sure he'll add to it today. He is 31. He could reach 800 by the time he's done. So, maybe you have a point. 

I know it's fashionable to pick someone other than Gretzky as the greatest goal scorer of all time because he was an even greater play-maker and I think we are so desperate to anoint someone else because we are tired of seeing his name. But I still gotta go with Gretzky.

8 straight years of 50 or more

4 straight years of 70(!) or more.

if not for an injury in 87-88 he would have 10 straight 50 or more seasons. The further we get away from Gretzky the less we're able to comprehend his greatness. Gretzky was Ruthian level.

Lemieux approached that level at times, perhaps exceeded it at others...but never stayed at that level for as long as Wayne(not always his fault either). Hull had his 72-86-70 seasons in a row...but from there was a 50...then 40...then 30 goal scorer as the NHL became mired in a quagmire of clutching and grabbing. And he never had the other dimensions to his game like Wayne. But as a pure goal scorer for a brief time he approached Wayne. Never exceeded.

Bossy was a lethal, phenomenal goal scorer who had unbelievably precise accuracy in puck placement.. He retired at 30 and was still on pace for 48 goals in his final year (played in 63 games). Either the back injury was pretty severe or he just felt like he had accomplished all that he had to accomplish and didn't want to slog through anymore in the NHL in his 30's getting injections and needing somebody to lace his skates like Mario.

But even if he played another 5 years and scored around 40-50 every year...he doesn't top Gretzky.

Edited by '7'
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