Trade Schneider

[Devils Pride 26]

32 minutes ago, Steven M. said:

What do y'all honestly think we can get for him. I'm genuinely curious. I'm willing to bet what the real answer is would be less than what you think. There's really no point in trading him. 

A late first for sure. A B level prospect and a second as well.

Obviously it's a gamble. You have to ask yourself a couple of questions. Do you see Schneider returning to a .920% next year (.010 increase)? If so, do you see them making the playoffs? I think both answers are no. 

I think the comparisons to Bob are terrible. Bob was 22 when Philly dumped him and his numbers were much worse (sub .900%). Schneider is 31 and this season was his first sizable difference. I don't see Schneider sniffing .930% again which is what we had been hoping for at time of trade. However, I think he'll still be perceived as an above average goalie around the league, and a team might look to ride him for a few years. 

Edited March 19, 2017 by Devils Pride 26

[Triumph]

Schneider is not 31 yet.  He turns 31 this summer.  (Oops, he turned 31 yesterday)

Schneider's stats are massively skewed by 3 on 3 and penalty shots now - he's given up 8 goals in these situations this season.  He's got a .780 SV% 3 on 3.

I think it's possible for Schneider to return to .920 and for the Devils to make the playoffs.  I'm not willing to give up on an elite goalie with one average season.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Triumph

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, Steven M. said:

What do y'all honestly think we can get for him. I'm genuinely curious. I'm willing to bet what the real answer is would be less than what you think. There's really no point in trading him. 

Agreed. He's under contract for a long time and is coming off his worst season ever. He's not yet shown he can be a successful #1 starting goalie, not necessarily through his own fault, but it's true. His value right now is as low as it's been. Even if the plan is to trade him eventually, you're way better off keeping him for now and seeing if he can bounce back, raising his value.

I'm still squarely in the camp of not trading him, mind you. I don't agree with any of it.

[bobilly45]

46 minutes ago, Triumph said:

Schneider is not 31 yet.  He turns 31 this summer.  (Oops, he turned 31 yesterday)

Schneider's stats are massively skewed by 3 on 3 and penalty shots now - he's given up 8 goals in these situations this season.  He's got a .780 SV% 3 on 3.

I think it's possible for Schneider to return to .920 and for the Devils to make the playoffs.  I'm not willing to give up on an elite goalie with one average season.

He's NOT elite.  Elite goalies string together several consecutive good seasons, he has not.  He was good last yr, bad this yr....which boils down to average.  

[Steven M.]

I don't think a late first is really worth trading our starting goaltender. What does that leave us with Appleby, Kinkaid, and Wedgewood? Wedge has dealt with a lot of injuries, it's blatantly obvious to me that Kinkaid won't ever be able to hack it as a starter, and Appleby was in the ECHL like a year ago. Blackwood isn't ready yet. So we'd trade Schneider and end up with another Stefan Matteau or John Quennville? Not saying that Q might not end up being decent but generally speaking a late first isn't a guarantee...

I just think we need to ride it out, if the roster is improved next year and he is still playing at a sub-par level then we will need to probably start thinking about what our options are. 

[Triumph]

Just now, bobilly45 said:

He's NOT elite.  Elite goalies string together several consecutive good seasons, he has not.  He was good last yr, bad this yr....which boils down to average.  

Where do you think Cory Schneider ranks in all-time save percentage?

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, Triumph said:

Where do you think Cory Schneider ranks in all-time save percentage?

And for those in the "he hasn't played enough games for that stat to matter" camp, compare him to guys with similar amounts of games. He's .001 behind Rask, tied with Holtby, and ahead of Bobrovsky, Bishop, Rinne, Dubnyk, Halak, Quick, etc.

Fvcking bum.

[Antiquated Colorado Rockie]

trading Schneider would be ill advised and could leave us with a gaping hole at the goaltender position for years to come. Schneider has established himself as a very good goaltender. Trading him after an off season would also result in a lesser return.

[Devils Pride 26]

I think some of you guys are missing my point. Schneider is leaving his peak years. Yes, he's had some spectacular seasons. Probably stopped us from being a top 3 pick last few years. 

Yet we suck.

As the team improves (god willing), Schneider will be declining and probably a weaker link. If you don't see us as a playoff team next year, you're wasting your time keeping him. He's a good goaltender that will keep us in the 8th-12th range again. 

I think the best way to make this team a winner is to bottom out, get 2 top 3 picks (this year and next), get what you can for Schneider, continue to draft a goalie a year for development, and worst case scenario find a stop gap UFA. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Devils Pride 26

[Triumph]

40 minutes ago, Devils Pride 26 said:

I think some of you guys are missing my point. Schneider is leaving his peak years. Yes, he's had some spectacular seasons. Probably stopped us from being a top 3 pick last few years. 

Yet we suck.

As the team improves (god willing), Schneider will be declining and probably a weaker link. If you don't see us as a playoff team next year, you're wasting your time keeping him. He's a good goaltender that will keep us in the 8th-12th range again. 

I think the best way to make this team a winner is to bottom out, get 2 top 3 picks (this year and next), get what you can for Schneider, continue to draft a goalie a year for development, and worst case scenario find a stop gap UFA. 

Schneider is leaving his peak years, yes, but I'm hoping leaving his peak years means going from 'being one of the best goalies of all-time' to 'still being above-average'.  

'Getting what you can for Schneider' isn't a good use of resources even when you factor in the high pick next season because if Schneider can still be that .925 goalie for a few years, Schneider is more valuable than that high pick relative to the pick the Devils would get.  Schneider's 31 and hasn't played in the playoffs for 4 years and has barely played in them at all, plus he's coming off his worst year, plus I don't see the team out there that desperately needs a goaltender.  How much do you think he's worth on the trade market?

In addition, the draft lottery odds have made it such that no team is a favorite to pick top 3 when the season begins.  Some teams obviously have a much greater chance than others, but as Devils fans should be keenly aware at this point, it is really hard to finish last.  The Devils' season feels like it has gone on forever and been completely miserable, and yet, the Devils are 3 points better than the Coyotes and 21 better than the Avs.  Even without Schneider, I don't think the Devils are the worst team in the league next year (though they certainly could be with injuries or their starter being bad), but again, that only gives them a 60% shot at picking top 3.  

They have to turn forward sometime and they accelerated that process with the deal for Taylor Hall.  Next year is hopefully that time, especially if they can get a top 3 pick here.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Triumph

[thecoffeecake]

On 03/12/2017 at 11:43 AM, Triumph said:

It's easy to be fooled by randomness but right now, in addition to being bad, the Devils are also unlucky.

The turn forward will not be easy, but it will involve purging the bad players.  That means Moore, DSP, and this version of Miles Wood - if Wood shows up next season playing like this, he can't do it in the NHL.  The turn forward will involve Zacha taking the next step.  It will involve acquiring some FAs or someone via trade using draft picks or prospects.  But it's not impossible, and even if the Devils do finish 10th next year, they're going to be a better team, and they're going to keep getting better.

Ha, classic. All we ever need to do is unload the deadweight. All we needed to do a few years ago was  get rid of Gionta, Zidlicky, Janssen, Bernier, then the ship would just right itself. Another generation of crappy players, another bunch of excuses as to why we're not competitive. Just move Lovejoy and DSP and Moore and all those future franchise players being blocked by these guys that I suppose we have will flood onto the roster.

We're younger, but not any closer to icing a decent team. The pipeline is still the emptiest in hockey, and the boys in Newark are amongst the least competitive in the National. There is nothing to suggest they're moving on track to be even marginally better any time soon. Best case scenario, this team is 3 or 4 years out from a serious playoff bid, and that's considering Shero's team drafts well, which is far from a guarantee.

Not moving Cory is irresponsible at this point. He will not contribute to the next cup contender; move him for a piece that might.

Edited March 20, 2017 by thecoffeecake

[Triumph]

31 minutes ago, thecoffeecake said:

Ha, classic. All we ever need to do is unload the deadweight. All we needed to do a few years ago was  get rid of Gionta, Zidlicky, Janssen, Bernier, then the ship would just right itself. Another generation of crappy players, another bunch of excuses as to why we're not competitive. Just move Lovejoy and DSP and Moore and all those future franchise players being blocked by these guys that I suppose we have will flood onto the roster.

We're younger, but not any closer to icing a decent team. The pipeline is still the emptiest in hockey, and the boys in Newark are amongst the least competitive in the National. There is nothing to suggest they're moving on track to be even marginally better any time soon. Best case scenario, this team is 3 or 4 years out from a serious playoff bid, and that's considering Shero's team drafts well, which is far from a guarantee.

Not moving Cory is irresponsible at this point. He will not contribute to the next cup contender; move him for a piece that might.

First off, no one with any sense claimed that the team would be good by moving players like Janssen and Gionta.  So that's a strawman argument.  Message board fans obsess over players like Gionta but they're not what win hockey games - your 4th line doesn't do a whole lot, in part because your 4th line tends to play against the opposition's 4th line.  But moving Lovejoy, a player currently playing on the Devils' top pair, to a smaller role?  Yes, this is critical - Lovejoy plays over a third of the game and is bad.  You can have a guy as bad as Lovejoy and do okay if you have a lot of great players, but the Devils don't and aren't likely to any time soon.  So the next best thing they can do is reduce the number of bad players who take regular shifts.  If Santini's ready for this next season, shifting Lovejoy's minutes over to him and Severson and putting Lovejoy back into his more customary role of 15-16 minutes a game could help the team.

Second, claims like 'the pipeline is still the emptiest in hockey' is pure hyperbole and based on nothing.  We're seeing players like Quenneville and Blandisi come up and look competent.   Zacha's looking more confident each game.  The pieces are there to potentially have 3 decent forward lines next season, and while this team needs help at the top that's not likely to come next season, this will help fix the bottom.  That's not to mention the prospects the Devils have outside the AHL/NHL like McLeod and Speers and so on.  None of these players are likely 1st liners, but they've got legitimate NHL potential.

Taylor Hall creates a 1st line basically by himself, so that I'm not concerned about so long as he can stay healthy.

'Best case scenario, this team is 3 or 4 years out from a serious playoff bid' - what is a serious playoff bid?   The Devils missed the playoffs by 12 points last year.  I wouldn't consider that a serious playoff bid, but it also goes to show that even a bad team can get pretty close to the playoffs.  I'd be shocked if they didn't come closer to the playoffs in any of the next 3 to 4 years, and I'd be surprised if they don't come closer next season.  If you mean 'being a Cup contender', sure, I agree, but that doesn't seem to jive with your claim at the end.

[Derek21]

5 hours ago, Triumph said:

Where do you think Cory Schneider ranks in all-time save percentage?

Who cares. If he were truly elite as you claim, he'd be more consistent despite the awful defense. All you do is make excuses for him. Elite is what Bobrovsky is doing. He should win the Vezina again. Even with the improvement on D, he stands on his head nightly. Elite is Lundqvist carrying the Rangers during 2012 when he won the Vezina on a flawed team that was the top seed, won a Game 6 and two Game 7's before finally cracking against the Devils. It's Kiprusoff during a couple of Calgary years doing the same for the Flames even getting them within an inch of a Stanley Cup. It's Brodeur doing it every year for the Devils even with the talent they had. Winning 40 games or better. Smashing records and winning 3 Cups and 4 Vezinas. 

I feel like the definition of elite has dropped off. Elite to me are great goalies. The level of Hasek, Brodeur and Roy. Price is at that level even though he's been inconsistent this year. He can steal games or a series. Bobrovsky might be capable of it. Rask also could be. Lundqvist has won series when his team's back was against the wall. Roy always did. Marty did it against the Flyers in '00 and against the Senators in Game 7 of '03. 

Is Schneider even as good as Dubnyk? He's finally showing signs of slowing down with the Wild in free fall. If you took Dubnyk off that team, they would stink. What about Talbot's performance for Edmonton? They're not exactly a lock down defensive team even with the upgrades. Talbot rarely gets a night off. 

I want to make one thing clear. I don't want to diminish what Schneider did last year. He was at the best level of his career and gave the Devils a chance to make the playoffs. I expected him to take the next step. Maybe it was poor thinking. I didn't consider how much they would miss Larsson or how bad their moves were. I had them just missing the wildcard. Yet you claim the Devils won that trade cleanly. I thought so too. Many did. But they haven't. Hall should be a 30-goal 70-point guy. Edmonton is doing fine. They don't miss him. 

[Derek21]

3 hours ago, Devils Pride 26 said:

I think some of you guys are missing my point. Schneider is leaving his peak years. Yes, he's had some spectacular seasons. Probably stopped us from being a top 3 pick last few years. 

Yet we suck.

As the team improves (god willing), Schneider will be declining and probably a weaker link. If you don't see us as a playoff team next year, you're wasting your time keeping him. He's a good goaltender that will keep us in the 8th-12th range again. 

I think the best way to make this team a winner is to bottom out, get 2 top 3 picks (this year and next), get what you can for Schneider, continue to draft a goalie a year for development, and worst case scenario find a stop gap UFA. 

After a down season, his value will be at an all-time low. They won't get close to fair value for him. You have to wait it out. Maybe next year, Schneider returns to form. The Devils can't be any worse. They'll get rid of some of the dead weight and play the kids more which should make them more competitive. I don't think he's as bad as he's shown this year. Your best bet is to ride it out. Either he carries them in even though it's unrealistic given the division and East. Or has a bounce back year which increases his value making him a more attractive option if teams are interested. It depends on management. I have no clue what the plan is.

[Steven M.]

3 hours ago, Derek21 said:

Who cares. If he were truly elite as you claim, he'd be more consistent despite the awful defense. All you do is make excuses for him. Elite is what Bobrovsky is doing. He should win the Vezina again. Even with the improvement on D, he stands on his head nightly. Elite is Lundqvist carrying the Rangers during 2012 when he won the Vezina on a flawed team that was the top seed, won a Game 6 and two Game 7's before finally cracking against the Devils. It's Kiprusoff during a couple of Calgary years doing the same for the Flames even getting them within an inch of a Stanley Cup. It's Brodeur doing it every year for the Devils even with the talent they had. Winning 40 games or better. Smashing records and winning 3 Cups and 4 Vezinas. 

I feel like the definition of elite has dropped off. Elite to me are great goalies. The level of Hasek, Brodeur and Roy. Price is at that level even though he's been inconsistent this year. He can steal games or a series. Bobrovsky might be capable of it. Rask also could be. Lundqvist has won series when his team's back was against the wall. Roy always did. Marty did it against the Flyers in '00 and against the Senators in Game 7 of '03. 

Is Schneider even as good as Dubnyk? He's finally showing signs of slowing down with the Wild in free fall. If you took Dubnyk off that team, they would stink. What about Talbot's performance for Edmonton? They're not exactly a lock down defensive team even with the upgrades. Talbot rarely gets a night off. 

I want to make one thing clear. I don't want to diminish what Schneider did last year. He was at the best level of his career and gave the Devils a chance to make the playoffs. I expected him to take the next step. Maybe it was poor thinking. I didn't consider how much they would miss Larsson or how bad their moves were. I had them just missing the wildcard. Yet you claim the Devils won that trade cleanly. I thought so too. Many did. But they haven't. Hall should be a 30-goal 70-point guy. Edmonton is doing fine. They don't miss him. 

Not sure what Hall has to do with the prospect of trading Schneider, but Hall has 47 points in 60 GP in what would be considered a down year for him among an offense that has mostly sputtered all year long. I'd say he's been about what we asked for and honestly I think he'd be looking even better if the top line was together the whole year. Him, Zajac, and Palmieri (who also started the year slowly) have been playing very well and I don't think all the line shuffling at the beginning of the season (more like the whole first half of the season) really helped him. Yet he still dominated most nights, the only reason we even started the year 9-3-3 is because he was on fire and Schneider was playing well.

I'll also never buy that Edmonton is better off without him, the only reason this trade looks remotely passable for them is because they're going to make the playoffs and honestly it's about friggin time with all the upper echelon prospects they've acquired in the past decade of sucking. When you fall ass backwards into a Connor McDavid (who is a year more experienced as well as healthy this year) plus getting some good goaltending from Talbot (who they're riding too much) then you're probably going to make the playoffs. But like Tri has said with regards to them in some other threads... is making the playoffs enough? They're 12th in GF/G. Is their defense / Talbot really good enough to carry them? They're being absolutely carried by McDavid and Draisaitl. They give that monstrosity of a contract to Lucic. How's that going to look when it's time to pay McDavid and Draisaitl? It's really tough for me to say they 100% don't miss Hall. When they start playing tighter games in the playoffs that might not be true anymore.

[Triumph]

7 hours ago, Derek21 said:

Who cares. If he were truly elite as you claim, he'd be more consistent despite the awful defense. All you do is make excuses for him. Elite is what Bobrovsky is doing. He should win the Vezina again. Even with the improvement on D, he stands on his head nightly. Elite is Lundqvist carrying the Rangers during 2012 when he won the Vezina on a flawed team that was the top seed, won a Game 6 and two Game 7's before finally cracking against the Devils. It's Kiprusoff during a couple of Calgary years doing the same for the Flames even getting them within an inch of a Stanley Cup. It's Brodeur doing it every year for the Devils even with the talent they had. Winning 40 games or better. Smashing records and winning 3 Cups and 4 Vezinas. 

I feel like the definition of elite has dropped off. Elite to me are great goalies. The level of Hasek, Brodeur and Roy. Price is at that level even though he's been inconsistent this year. He can steal games or a series. Bobrovsky might be capable of it. Rask also could be. Lundqvist has won series when his team's back was against the wall. Roy always did. Marty did it against the Flyers in '00 and against the Senators in Game 7 of '03. 

Is Schneider even as good as Dubnyk? He's finally showing signs of slowing down with the Wild in free fall. If you took Dubnyk off that team, they would stink. What about Talbot's performance for Edmonton? They're not exactly a lock down defensive team even with the upgrades. Talbot rarely gets a night off. 

I want to make one thing clear. I don't want to diminish what Schneider did last year. He was at the best level of his career and gave the Devils a chance to make the playoffs. I expected him to take the next step. Maybe it was poor thinking. I didn't consider how much they would miss Larsson or how bad their moves were. I had them just missing the wildcard. Yet you claim the Devils won that trade cleanly. I thought so too. Many did. But they haven't. Hall should be a 30-goal 70-point guy. Edmonton is doing fine. They don't miss him. 

Cory Schneider has the highest save percentage in NHL history.  He's #1.  He's having a down year and his age begins with a 3 so maybe he's heading for several down years or maybe not.  But almost nobody realizes what a great goalie Schneider is and that basically a Hall of Fame career has been thrown away by Vancouver and New Jersey here.

Brodeur did not do it every year, Derek.  That's a common myth.   Brodeur was an elite goalie for 5 years of his career, maybe?  But he had plenty of average seasons.  I avoided bringing him up because I know it's just going to cloud the issue, but citing Brodeur as an example of consistency is just plain wrong.  The Devils had a great team and it didn't matter whether Brodeur was great or even average in those years.

I didn't expect the Devils to do better than last year because they were garbage last year and fluked their way to 19th best.  They were not a good team.  They're about as good now.  The Devils won that trade pretty clearly but hey, Edmonton's in the playoffs finally and the Devils had a bad year, so it must be Edmonton that won.  

[NJDfan1711]

I don't know what else I can add to this discussion that hasn't been said, except for maybe this, which is something I see and notice quite a bit -- Schneider very rarely seems to steal a game in my eyes.  I think that's something you need from your starting goalie every now and then, and certainly one considered to be "elite".  Surely we've asked Schneider to do a lot over the past season or two by icing pretty poor defenses in front of him, but even with that, I hardly see games where he stands on his head, making 25, 30, 40+ save performances.  To that, even in average games where he faces fewer shots, say somewhere around 20-25, I still hardly ever see him make a game-saving save, one where he just completely robs a guy and gives us a chance to get and/or keep the lead to win a game.  

I just don't see it.  Maybe we were spoiled with Brodeur, and/or maybe he just played a different style where he was prone to making more acrobatic and flashier type saves, but I see it with other goalies around the league too, and just seldom with Cory.  

Just an observation.  In terms of trading or not trading him, I'm still indifferent.

[nessus]

The idea that Schneider doesn't steal any games is absolutely not true. It's just that most of the games that he has stolen have been meaningless games, but that isn't his fault. He is the main reason that the Devils were not in Matthews/Laine range last season. The fans that were on board for a tank last season were almost frustrated at him. I agree that this season, there haven't been as many games where he has been on that level. If you ask me, I would take a goalie who is FIRST ALL TIME in save percentage than someone who is slightly above average and is known to get a 40 goal shutout a couple times each year.

[bobilly45]

7 hours ago, nessus said:

The idea that Schneider doesn't steal any games is absolutely not true. It's just that most of the games that he has stolen have been meaningless games, but that isn't his fault. He is the main reason that the Devils were not in Matthews/Laine range last season. The fans that were on board for a tank last season were almost frustrated at him. I agree that this season, there haven't been as many games where he has been on that level. If you ask me, I would take a goalie who is FIRST ALL TIME in save percentage than someone who is slightly above average and is known to get a 40 goal shutout a couple times each year.

Many games this yr he blew late, or in OT by letting in hs weak shots.  He was very good last year, and to start this season, then did a 180 in november,  This is only his second yr as a starter and hes 31 (or around there.  While I'd be open to trading him, this summer is not the time, he can easily rebound next season.  I would give him next yr, and see where we are.  A slightly above average goalie is the perfect description for schneider, not elite.

[bobilly45]

19 hours ago, Derek21 said:

Who cares. If he were truly elite as you claim, he'd be more consistent despite the awful defense. All you do is make excuses for him. Elite is what Bobrovsky is doing. He should win the Vezina again. Even with the improvement on D, he stands on his head nightly. Elite is Lundqvist carrying the Rangers during 2012 when he won the Vezina on a flawed team that was the top seed, won a Game 6 and two Game 7's before finally cracking against the Devils. It's Kiprusoff during a couple of Calgary years doing the same for the Flames even getting them within an inch of a Stanley Cup. It's Brodeur doing it every year for the Devils even with the talent they had. Winning 40 games or better. Smashing records and winning 3 Cups and 4 Vezinas. 

I feel like the definition of elite has dropped off. Elite to me are great goalies. The level of Hasek, Brodeur and Roy. Price is at that level even though he's been inconsistent this year. He can steal games or a series. Bobrovsky might be capable of it. Rask also could be. Lundqvist has won series when his team's back was against the wall. Roy always did. Marty did it against the Flyers in '00 and against the Senators in Game 7 of '03. 

Is Schneider even as good as Dubnyk? He's finally showing signs of slowing down with the Wild in free fall. If you took Dubnyk off that team, they would stink. What about Talbot's performance for Edmonton? They're not exactly a lock down defensive team even with the upgrades. Talbot rarely gets a night off. 

I want to make one thing clear. I don't want to diminish what Schneider did last year. He was at the best level of his career and gave the Devils a chance to make the playoffs. I expected him to take the next step. Maybe it was poor thinking. I didn't consider how much they would miss Larsson or how bad their moves were. I had them just missing the wildcard. Yet you claim the Devils won that trade cleanly. I thought so too. Many did. But they haven't. Hall should be a 30-goal 70-point guy. Edmonton is doing fine. They don't miss him. 

I agree with everything in this post.  Schneider is an average goalie, to maybe slightly above.  Unless he goes on a roll starting next season he will never be elite

[Derek21]

16 hours ago, Triumph said:

Cory Schneider has the highest save percentage in NHL history.  He's #1.  He's having a down year and his age begins with a 3 so maybe he's heading for several down years or maybe not.  But almost nobody realizes what a great goalie Schneider is and that basically a Hall of Fame career has been thrown away by Vancouver and New Jersey here.

Brodeur did not do it every year, Derek.  That's a common myth.   Brodeur was an elite goalie for 5 years of his career, maybe?  But he had plenty of average seasons.  I avoided bringing him up because I know it's just going to cloud the issue, but citing Brodeur as an example of consistency is just plain wrong.  The Devils had a great team and it didn't matter whether Brodeur was great or even average in those years.

I didn't expect the Devils to do better than last year because they were garbage last year and fluked their way to 19th best.  They were not a good team.  They're about as good now.  The Devils won that trade pretty clearly but hey, Edmonton's in the playoffs finally and the Devils had a bad year, so it must be Edmonton that won.  

Find the part where I said Edmonton won the trade. The winner hasn't been determined yet. Because when such deals are made, it takes more time before deciding. I think many of us including the experts jumped the gun. The Oilers knew they had McDavid and needed a top 4 defenseman who could log key minutes. Larsson might not be the guy you or I thought he was. But that doesn't mean he's bad. He was a solid minutes guy for the Devs who they depended on. Those types aren't easily replaced. Hall made sense for them because it's like you said. They have little to no offense. I think it's also fair to point out that there's no playoffs for Edmonton without Talbot. He's up to 37 wins and 7 shutouts. They don't have a backup. He plays basically every game. I think last night was number 66. He's gonna win 40. Even Lundqvist never did that. Without Cam, the Oilers don't sniff the playoffs.

[Derek21]

20 hours ago, Steven M. said:

Not sure what Hall has to do with the prospect of trading Schneider, but Hall has 47 points in 60 GP in what would be considered a down year for him among an offense that has mostly sputtered all year long. I'd say he's been about what we asked for and honestly I think he'd be looking even better if the top line was together the whole year. Him, Zajac, and Palmieri (who also started the year slowly) have been playing very well and I don't think all the line shuffling at the beginning of the season (more like the whole first half of the season) really helped him. Yet he still dominated most nights, the only reason we even started the year 9-3-3 is because he was on fire and Schneider was playing well.

I'll also never buy that Edmonton is better off without him, the only reason this trade looks remotely passable for them is because they're going to make the playoffs and honestly it's about friggin time with all the upper echelon prospects they've acquired in the past decade of sucking. When you fall ass backwards into a Connor McDavid (who is a year more experienced as well as healthy this year) plus getting some good goaltending from Talbot (who they're riding too much) then you're probably going to make the playoffs. But like Tri has said with regards to them in some other threads... is making the playoffs enough? They're 12th in GF/G. Is their defense / Talbot really good enough to carry them? They're being absolutely carried by McDavid and Draisaitl. They give that monstrosity of a contract to Lucic. How's that going to look when it's time to pay McDavid and Draisaitl? It's really tough for me to say they 100% don't miss Hall. When they start playing tighter games in the playoffs that might not be true anymore.

They haven't sniffed the playoffs in 11 years. I guess they're supposed to go right back to the Stanley Cup Final like last time. They have more than a couple of good players. Maroon is good. So is Lucic even though the contract they gave him is awful. You need guys like that in the playoffs. Eberle is good despite what's been a bad year. So is Nugent-Hopkins although he doesn't score as much as I thought he would. Klefbom and Nurse are good. Larsson is plus-19 and leads Edmonton in hits. Talbot isn't getting enough credit for the season they have had. He should be up for the Vezina. Without him, they'd be cooked. Even with McDavid's scoring, they wouldn't make the playoffs without Cam.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Reading through this thread, and there's definitely some falsehoods:

Cory was a fine #1 in the two seasons prior to this one.  Not his fault that he was stuck on bad teams.  

He has clearly been up and down this year.  He's had extended stretches where he's been just as good of a puckstopper as he's ever been.  He's also had stretches where pucks just keep finding holes, at an alarming rate.  It's been an odd year for him, and clearly not a good one overall.  And he's not a kid anymore (though not old either).  Right now I'm in the "Isolated meh year" camp.  This has been an awful season for the Devils and I think it's affecting just about everyone, including the fanbase...who are not happy about the state of the team, and want to assess blame.  It's easy to point to an inconsistent Schneider, but he's just one of many problems in 2016-2017.  I absolutely still think he can bounce back....at any rate, like others have mentioned, his value is down, and who knows how much demand there really is at the moment anyway.  This just doesn't feel like the right time to discuss trading him. 

Derek, re:  Brodeur, here's how you evaluate him:  one of the greats, no doubt.  Freakishly durable.  Insanely long peak (but not awesome year in and year out...I'll explain).  Often able to make the big save in the big moment, and capable of raising his game (he did this on multiple occasions during the playoffs, especially during his team's Cup wins).  And of course, he was the best puck-handling goalie the league has ever seen.  

He had a four-year period where he was pretty average overall, and it came during two of his team's memorable playoff runs.  In 2000, he was able to raise his game come playoff time like I mentioned, and really was excellent (possibly his only true run of sustained excellence in those four seasons).  In 2001, much as I REALLY hate to criticize Brodeur too much for anything, he was simply not good during the regular season OR those playoffs.  He was propped up by a franchise that had put its best-ever team together, and that team was often having to overcome him...hard as it is to believe, goaltending was a weak spot on that team (especially when Terreri was still there).  On a team that good, a goalie having a meh year is going to still rack up a lot of wins.  Crazy as it sounds, the post-lockout version of Brodeur on that squad would've helped them win the Cup, probably easily.  While there were other issues with the 2001 team (peaking too early, etc), Brodeur was a big culprit as to why they didn't get it done...especially when his play declined from meh-ish/inconsistent to downright awful in the 2001 SCF (.860ish save% during the Finals, and he looked every bit as off as that number suggests).  Outside of his decline seasons, I'd say the 2000-01 season might have been his worst overall, but that team's excitement factor and overall success (despite not winning the Cup) overshadows that.  

What makes Brodeur Brodeur was that he was able to be (for the most part) consistently above average, with a number of elite seasons sprinkled in, for a very long time.  He showed that he still flourish even when the big names on defense retired or left...though it's wrong to say he was always elite season in and season out, it's also wrong to say his career was purely a result of a killer defense (as his detractors often do..."duuuuuh, he only faces 14 shots a game, blah blah blah...").

[Steven M.]

9 hours ago, Derek21 said:

They haven't sniffed the playoffs in 11 years. I guess they're supposed to go right back to the Stanley Cup Final like last time. They have more than a couple of good players. Maroon is good. So is Lucic even though the contract they gave him is awful. You need guys like that in the playoffs. Eberle is good despite what's been a bad year. So is Nugent-Hopkins although he doesn't score as much as I thought he would. Klefbom and Nurse are good. Larsson is plus-19 and leads Edmonton in hits. Talbot isn't getting enough credit for the season they have had. He should be up for the Vezina. Without him, they'd be cooked. Even with McDavid's scoring, they wouldn't make the playoffs without Cam.

So you think that with Hall, they wouldn't be making the playoffs this year? Like he's some kind of magical presence that prevents wins?

Maroon should basically give his entire paycheck to McDavid. Put him on any other team and he never comes close to the season he's having.

[dmann422]

Count me as a no tor trading Schneider, one down year with a terribad defense shouldn't shape his future with the club.

The only type of trade I would accept is for a young potential top pairing Dman. A late first and meh prospect don't interest me in the slightest.