The NJ Offseason Thread

[T0asterleav1ns]

Clearly there is a unique situation when it comes to NCAA players going the FA route, what you want to call it is completely besides the point.

 

 

[CommonDreads]

Amid all this with us having another kid going into Harvard – Vesey and Kerfoot are the exception, not the norm, most kids worth a damn sign with their drafted clubs and it's not just a Harvard thing with these kids leaving, Tyler Moy could have walked off Nashville this offseason too but he decided to go with the club that drafted him. I wouldn't worry about Walsh at this point, if it gets to after his Junior year and he still hasn't signed, then get concerned.

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

I think the key is no to push your luck and let them play past years in college. Brett Seney is in dangerous territory. If he has a breakout season people already know he has elite speed to play in the NHL. I would bet he is gone.

[Jerzey]

I don't really even understand why the loophole exists. Is it incentive to finish college?

[Triumph]

53 minutes ago, Jas0nMacIsaac said:

I think the key is no to push your luck and let them play past years in college. Brett Seney is in dangerous territory. If he has a breakout season people already know he has elite speed to play in the NHL. I would bet he is gone.

Dangerous territory?  He's put up three semi-remarkable seasons in the NCAA.  Like Kerfoot he doesn't project to being an NHLer and he's not a guy I would necessarily sign to an ELC right now.  

37 minutes ago, Jerzey said:

I don't really even understand why the loophole exists. Is it incentive to finish college?

I'm not entirely sure why it exists in the form that it does, but I guess they don't want players that age to re-enter the draft.  It's not an incentive to finish college.  Kerfoot could've done the same thing last off-season - the reason he didn't is probably A: that he wanted to finish college and B: he might not have gotten an NHL contract had he done so.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Triumph

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

55 minutes ago, Triumph said:

Dangerous territory?  He's put up three semi-remarkable seasons in the NCAA.  Like Kerfoot he doesn't project to being an NHLer and he's not a guy I would necessarily sign to an ELC right now.  

I'm not entirely sure why it exists in the form that it does, but I guess they don't want players that age to re-enter the draft.  It's not an incentive to finish college.  Kerfoot could've done the same thing last off-season - the reason he didn't is probably A: that he wanted to finish college and B: he might not have gotten an NHL contract had he done so.

So you're saying if Seney put up a 47 point season in roughly 37 games you don't believe he will test his luck in free agency? Seney, unlike Kerfoot, has plus speed that will play in the NHL right away.

[MadDog2020]

I don't really even understand why the loophole exists. Is it incentive to finish college?

It exists because college players lose their college eligibility the minute they sign a pro contract.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Triumph]

19 minutes ago, Jas0nMacIsaac said:

So you're saying if Seney put up a 47 point season in roughly 37 games you don't believe he will test his luck in free agency? Seney, unlike Kerfoot, has plus speed that will play in the NHL right away.

He's not going to do this - his best teammate left and Merrimack is really just not a good team - and even if he does, so be it.  Right now Seney with his present numbers, team-adjusted, doesn't look like an NHLer.  I can't remember where I rated him on the AATJ top 25 but I don't think it was in the top 25.  

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

24 minutes ago, Triumph said:

He's not going to do this - his best teammate left and Merrimack is really just not a good team - and even if he does, so be it.  Right now Seney with his present numbers, team-adjusted, doesn't look like an NHLer.  I can't remember where I rated him on the AATJ top 25 but I don't think it was in the top 25.  

He has led the team in scoring all 3 years starting as a true freshmen, he has been much better at the college level than Blaine Byron who finally broke out and created a market. If Seney puts up 40+ points he will be one of the top 5 options like Kerfoot, Butcher and Byron.

[mfitz804]

14 hours ago, Devilsfan118 said:

Eh as far as I'm concerned, avoid drafting NCAA kids when possible if the kid won't be ready by his sophomore year.

Might as well be throwing the pick away if the kid's gonna take four years of college to develop. 

 

14 hours ago, Devils Pride 26 said:

They need to fix this loophole and fast. It's utterly ridiculous for a player who an organization has invested resources and wants to retain have the ability to walk away without compensation. Especially when all of these guys are ending up bailing out an organization that hasn't drafted for sh!t the last 5 years.

Fvcking entitled snakes.

If they won't change the rule, then all the teams should just stop wasting their resources and stop drafting these guys. 

[Triumph]

6 hours ago, Jas0nMacIsaac said:

He has led the team in scoring all 3 years starting as a true freshmen, he has been much better at the college level than Blaine Byron who finally broke out and created a market. If Seney puts up 40+ points he will be one of the top 5 options like Kerfoot, Butcher and Byron.

Sure.  Look I hope the Devils sign Blaine Byron but he probably won't be an NHLer.  Creating a market just means that teams are willing to take the slightest chance on a guy.  Seney has NHL potential but odds are he's an AHL 1st-2nd liner and that's where he tops out.  It's not someone the Devils should be rushing into their system, and there'll 5 be UDFAs who will have similar seasons to Seney next year.   

And also Merrimack's likely not going anywhere in the Hockey East playoffs so if the Devils really want Seney they can get him pretty early and throw him into the NHL if that's their prerogative.

[LittleBallofHate]

Santini had a busy offseason - finished his degree & got married - a hearty Congrats to him!  

From NJ.com 

Santini will be entering his second pro season after spending the majority of his time in the NHL last winter.

Having a full year playing and training in the league should benefit Santini, who had a busy offseason on and off the ice.

Along with his training, Santini wrapped up his college degree and got married.

"People don't understand the transition for young kids is hard. Now I'm 22, I'm married, a full year of pro," Santini said. "There's definitely a comfort level. It's hard to explain, but hopefully I find my game early and help the team anyway I can."

[LittleBallofHate]

Not sure where to put this - not confirmed obviously... 

Mark Divver‏ @MarkDivver  (Rink rover at The Providence Journal.)

Jimmy Hayes invited to #NJDevils camp on a PTO, according to NHL source.

[LittleBallofHate]

Confirmed.  He's young (27) but he had a bad year last year... let's hope the change of scenery (no hometown pressure?) helps.  No harm in inviting a RW on a PTO.

New Jersey Devils‏ Verified account @NJDevils

The #NJDevils have invited RW Jimmy Hayes to training camp on a PTO.

Edited August 23, 2017 by LittleBallofHate

[mfitz804]

Sure, why not.

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

He is a garbage player who found ways how to score. With no PP time he is a slow useless player that should be on his way to Europe.

[moustic]

53 minutes ago, Jas0nMacIsaac said:

He is a garbage player who found ways how to score. With no PP time he is a slow useless player that should be on his way to Europe.

So basically... You like the guy ! 

[Devils Pride 26]

On August 21, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Triumph said:

This is not a loophole, it's a collectively bargained result, the circumstances of which could easily be anticipated by both sides.  This rule hasn't changed in over a decade.

What resources have the Devils invested in Alex Kerfoot?  They're not permitted to invite him to development camp and offer to pay for it - NCAA players have to pay their own way to development camp.  All they invested was a draft pick 5 years ago and some time negotiating.  What kind of compensation should they get?  A pick a round back, like what happens if you don't sign a first-round pick?  So the Devils would get a compensatory 6th round pick next year.  That's fair, I guess, but now the trouble is that would you get this compensatory pick for letting players go anywhere?  That disincentivizes teams from signing marginal players, which is ultimately bad for players.  Let's say the Devils draft a Mike Hoeffel type in the 2nd round, he goes through his 4 years of college, the Devils say, well, we want the 3rd round pick instead of you, you're a marginal player with almost no chance at the NHL.  That shouldn't be a calculus teams make - and you can argue that they do make it on 1st round picks with the current compensation rule, but 1st round picks have to be a gigantic bust for teams not to want to sign them, and I think it's happened less than 5 times in the 2010's decade. 

So it's more complicated than it appears.  Hopefully the Devils can sign Byron or Butcher.

 

I understand what you are getting at with the hypothetical Hoeffel scenario but you've neglected the underlined word, in want. If the Devils showed interest in signing Kerfoot, offered a standard ELC, I don't think it's right to enable a player to walk out on the investment without compensation. If drafting team did not offer an ELC, then obviously no compensation. Why should these graduates be given more freedom than a restricted free agent? I think it would be a better system for the team drafting the said player having the ability to match the contract if he signs elsewhere.

[CommonDreads]

I could see Hayes making the team as the 4th line RW, I think he's better than Noesen but either way its good to bring in some competition to give the kids in training camp that extra shot in the arm.

[Triumph]

38 minutes ago, Devils Pride 26 said:

I understand what you are getting at with the hypothetical Hoeffel scenario but you've neglected the underlined word, in want. If the Devils showed interest in signing Kerfoot, offered a standard ELC, I don't think it's right to enable a player to walk out on the investment without compensation. If drafting team did not offer an ELC, then obviously no compensation. Why should these graduates be given more freedom than a restricted free agent? I think it would be a better system for the team drafting the said player having the ability to match the contract if he signs elsewhere.

What is a 'standard ELC'?  If you look at ELCs, you will see there is not really a standard.

Your scenario could lead to teams browbeating players into not signing with them.  Say the Devils didn't want this hypothetical Hoeffel but they want the draft pick - so they could offer him a contract and said 'We don't think much of you.  If you sign here, you'll get opportunities if you work for them, but we're going to start you off in the ECHL'.  Well, now what?  Does he sign with New Jersey who will probably bury him?  Of course not.

[Daniel]

11 minutes ago, Triumph said:

What is a 'standard ELC'?  If you look at ELCs, you will see there is not really a standard.

Your scenario could lead to teams browbeating players into not signing with them.  Say the Devils didn't want this hypothetical Hoeffel but they want the draft pick - so they could offer him a contract and said 'We don't think much of you.  If you sign here, you'll get opportunities if you work for them, but we're going to start you off in the ECHL'.  Well, now what?  Does he sign with New Jersey who will probably bury him?  Of course not.

I mean, you could do something to the effect of requiring a tender of a max ELC with maybe some exception to the waiver rules so the player can't be buried in the AHL or ECHL before some kind of compensation kicks in, although maybe it gets a little too complicated for its own good.

Still, even though it hasn't stung the Devils yet, I really do think something should be done about it, and it isn't like the rule has had no consequences.  The Rangers were in the business of trading away first round picks over like a four year period -- which is supposed to come with a big price -- but basically got two first round equivalents for nothing in Hayes and Vesey who were both ready to play in the NHL immediately.  No, Hayes isn't really a world beater yet and we'll see what becomes of Vesey, but still there's something kind of unfair about it.  I mean, you can look at this like Mr. Spock right now when it comes to assessing the Devils' place in all this, but it isn't implausible that Anderson, Walsh or someone we're not thinking about just refuses to sign a deal after even his sophomore year just on the thinking that "I want to play for a competitor sooner" which is exactly the opposite of what the draft is supposed to accomplish.

Maybe the simplest and fairest way to do it is to tie college players to the team that drafted them for one year after their college eligibility runs out.  So if a player really, really wants to play somewhere else, there should be a price to pay -- if that means go play in the KHL, so be it.  You would think though that the one year buffer period should facilitate a trade so that one team gets compensation and the other team isn't getting a young NHL ready player (presumably) for nothing.   Again, you could perhaps make some tender requirement so that teams don't blackball marginal players who are just looking for a shot with some other team. 

[Devils Pride 26]

2 hours ago, Triumph said:

What is a 'standard ELC'?  If you look at ELCs, you will see there is not really a standard.

Your scenario could lead to teams browbeating players into not signing with them.  Say the Devils didn't want this hypothetical Hoeffel but they want the draft pick - so they could offer him a contract and said 'We don't think much of you.  If you sign here, you'll get opportunities if you work for them, but we're going to start you off in the ECHL'.  Well, now what?  Does he sign with New Jersey who will probably bury him?  Of course not.

Admittedly, this is an angle I did not consider. In terms of dealing with the various skill levels, I wonder if it could be cleared up by mandating contracts signing these players count against the salary cap regardless of players assignment of NHL/AHL/ECHL  to deter teams from from the above. On the other hand, I can already see how this might have an opposite effect as players like Hoeffel would naturally need more minor league seasoning and this would probably deter from them being offered a contract in the first place, penalizing the player. 

I might not have the best solutions for this issue, but I think it's in the best interests of the game to have these discussions.

[Triumph]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

I mean, you could do something to the effect of requiring a tender of a max ELC with maybe some exception to the waiver rules so the player can't be buried in the AHL or ECHL before some kind of compensation kicks in, although maybe it gets a little too complicated for its own good.

Still, even though it hasn't stung the Devils yet, I really do think something should be done about it, and it isn't like the rule has had no consequences.  The Rangers were in the business of trading away first round picks over like a four year period -- which is supposed to come with a big price -- but basically got two first round equivalents for nothing in Hayes and Vesey who were both ready to play in the NHL immediately.  No, Hayes isn't really a world beater yet and we'll see what becomes of Vesey, but still there's something kind of unfair about it.  I mean, you can look at this like Mr. Spock right now when it comes to assessing the Devils' place in all this, but it isn't implausible that Anderson, Walsh or someone we're not thinking about just refuses to sign a deal after even his sophomore year just on the thinking that "I want to play for a competitor sooner" which is exactly the opposite of what the draft is supposed to accomplish.

Maybe the simplest and fairest way to do it is to tie college players to the team that drafted them for one year after their college eligibility runs out.  So if a player really, really wants to play somewhere else, there should be a price to pay -- if that means go play in the KHL, so be it.  You would think though that the one year buffer period should facilitate a trade so that one team gets compensation and the other team isn't getting a young NHL ready player (presumably) for nothing.   Again, you could perhaps make some tender requirement so that teams don't blackball marginal players who are just looking for a shot with some other team. 

Vesey and Hayes are not equivalent to 1st round picks for many reasons, but the most obvious reason is that the Rangers don't hold these players' rights for all that long.  They'll get Hayes for 5 years, Vesey for 4 years.  It was not a lock that either guy would be good, and indeed Vesey had a pretty underwhelming rookie season and he turned 24 in May so there shouldn't be much anticipation of a huge improvement.  He'll be an okay NHLer at least.

In Hayes' case, the Blackhawks got a 2nd round pick for not signing him.

These guys don't want to play for competitors sooner.  Vesey passed on Nashville, a playoff team who he could've joined if Poile is to be believed and a Cup finalist this year.  Hayes passed on playing for the Blackhawks, at that point a 2 time Cup winner and who would go on to win their 3rd that season.  Justin Schultz passed on Anaheim for fvcking Edmonton near the bottom of their sh!ttiness.  And these are the guys who were actually thought to be good who did this!  Most of them have not been very good and you've forgotten their names already.  Regardless, it has little to do with wanting to play for winners - for most of these guys who've been available, it's the opposite, they want to get ice time.  Kerfoot signed with Colorado because they suck and they don't have a ton of options at center and he'll probably get an NHL callup this year if he does his job in the minors. 

Frankly it's more Spock-like to think that decisions that are chiefly about money and a place to live are instead about 'winning'.

[MadDog2020]

Hayes is terrible. But whatever, worth a shot I guess. On a side note, I can't recall a scenario where the Devils and Rags had brothers on the opposite team.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mfitz804]

34 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

Hayes is terrible. But whatever, worth a shot I guess. On a side note, I can't recall a scenario where the Devils and Rags had brothers on the opposite team.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

And of course in the scenario where it would happen, we'd get the sh!tty brother.