In Russia NHL returns you. Kovalchuk staying in KHL.

[Chuck the Duck]

1 hour ago, Triumph said:

Chuck:  Yeah, of course, obviously Shero won't send him to the Rangers unless he gets a huge return, but unless Kovalchuk really misses the NHL, it'll be hard to strong arm him into taking any deal he doesn't want.

I don't care if Kovalchuk plays for the Rangers in 2018-19.  Neither should Shero.

I get what you are saying.  That's why it won't be easy to get any deal done, assuming Kovy has the limitations on where he will play that have ben reported.  But there is a very real reason the Devils have never made a trade with the Rags, and never will.  If he goes there and helps them win a Stanley Cup, Shero becomes a pariah and the large majority of fans, rightly or wrongly, will never forgive him.  I just can't see him getting traded to the Rags for any return, unless it is so 1 sided it makes Washington's decision in the Erat for Forserg deal look good.

I also don't understand why he would be willing to play in Tampa, but not a place like Boston, Pitt, Washington, Buffalo, etc.  His home in Florida is outside of Miami.  It's not like Tampa is a 20 minute drive away.  He'd have to fly home on an off day, and could easily do the same thing to his home in NJ if he played in one of the other cities I previously mentioned.

  

[ThreeCups]

Don't settle for anything less than a 1st or a top line type player

If the deal isn't available and he refuses to play for us....let him rot in Mother Russia

[aylbert]

3 hours ago, Triumph said:

Jagr didn't have an NTC.  Neither did Stempniak.  Kovalchuk effectively has an NTC because he's not under an NHL contract.  He's not going to sign one unless he knows for sure where he is going.  That team knows that the Devils can't demand too much or else they risk blowing up the deal altogether.

But we can't trade him without a contract anyway...    

My whole argument is on his worth to other teams;  I wouldn't accept a contingent 3rd for him.  I'd want a 2nd and more.
Ideally, I'd rather just have him playing for us and help us get back into the playoffs; but if he want's to be on a competitive team; you sign him to a 1yr deal and trade him to a willing team.  The only willing teams would be competitive, win-now teams who will happily trade their 2nd rounder plus for a top 6 player.

[thecoffeecake]

4 hours ago, Triumph said:

The KHL is a way worse league than the NHL.  It is on par with the AHL, and when you consider the fact that Kovalchuk plays on a super team that has 5 or 6 NHL quality forwards on it, it's entirely possible that the aggregate ability of the rest of the league is AHL quality.  His production should be way better in that league than it is in the NHL because it is a vastly inferior league.  Like, say, Alex Radulov's production is, just to take an example that I thought of off the top of my head.

Kovalchuk plays way more minutes in the NHL than he does in the KHL, so that's one reason why his numbers there shouldn't be compared to his numbers here across the board.  Kovalchuk is no longer an elite goal scorer.  He has not been one for 5 seasons now.  He's just a garden-variety 1st/2nd line NHL forward now.  The 'bidding war' for him wasn't very real in 2011 - only two teams made significant offers - and now he has a KHL defection and many more years on his resume.  

It doesn't matter if he was playing in the ECHL, the point is that his numbers haven't started to decline yet, leaving you zero evidence that he's not an elite level player anymore. You're not comparing his numbers in each league for the sake of raw value. The Radulov argument is absolutely meaningless, because the two have nothing to do with each other. Go catch some highlights of Kovy from this season, then try telling me he doesn't possess the talents he had in his prime.

[Mu6atu]

Let's be real about this whole situation. If Kovy is serious about coming back to the NHL, Shero should use and apply all leverage possible. Offer him a fair 1 or 2 year $4-4.5 million/year contract. He hasn't played in the NHL for 5 years, so tough luck. The NTC shouldn't be an issue, because I don't see a team that isn't looking to win now even be interested in Kovy. If he wants more money Shero should just tell him that it is not going to happen, and he can stay in the KHL. This should be viewed as an unexpected opportunity, and nothing more than that. Now lets say he signs the contract, I also believe that it should be understood that the greater picture would be to trade him. I personally would be looking for a 1st or a good prospect, and if nothing close to that is available then allow him to play and look to trade him at the deadline when teams are desperate and looking to fill in their weaknesses. The price of the contract will also allow for good teams to be able to find cap space for him. At the end of the day Shero needs to understand that Kovalchuk has no future with the Devils, and that Kovy has absolutely no leverage. We've been rebuilding with out the thought of him coming back, and we can continue to do so. 

[Triumph]

2 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

It doesn't matter if he was playing in the ECHL, the point is that his numbers haven't started to decline yet, leaving you zero evidence that he's not an elite level player anymore. You're not comparing his numbers in each league for the sake of raw value. The Radulov argument is absolutely meaningless, because the two have nothing to do with each other. Go catch some highlights of Kovy from this season, then try telling me he doesn't possess the talents he had in his prime.

This is incorrect.  We expect players to do better in worse leagues.  This is why players who go from the NHL to the KHL generally do better and players who come from the KHL to the NHL generally do worse.  Since leaving the NHL, he has 89 goals in 209 games.   This is actually a worse rate than his career numbers in the NHL.  He has unquestionably declined.  I don't need to watch highlights - Kovalchuk obviously was once an elite player and that ability doesn't go away forever, it just comes out less and less often.  

[thecoffeecake]

36 minutes ago, Triumph said:

This is incorrect.  We expect players to do better in worse leagues.  This is why players who go from the NHL to the KHL generally do better and players who come from the KHL to the NHL generally do worse.  Since leaving the NHL, he has 89 goals in 209 games.   This is actually a worse rate than his career numbers in the NHL.  He has unquestionably declined.  I don't need to watch highlights - Kovalchuk obviously was once an elite player and that ability doesn't go away forever, it just comes out less and less often.  

Again, look at his numbers when he went over during the lockout and his first full season over there. We know  what kind of ability he had at that point, and he's produced  at that level or above that level since. You cannot just look at his numbers either way. You admittedly haven't seen him play recently and have no idea whether or not he plays at a consistently high level. Your  entire argument is based on some backwards logic surrounding Radulov's numbers. Hopefully the Devils front office takes a peak at his game from this past season, and doesn't make wild speculation about his current ability and give him away for pennies on the dollar like you're in support of.

[Triumph]

6 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

Again, look at his numbers when he went over during the lockout and his first full season over there. We know  what kind of ability he had at that point, and he's produced  at that level or above that level since. You cannot just look at his numbers either way. You admittedly haven't seen him play recently and have no idea whether or not he plays at a consistently high level. Your  entire argument is based on some backwards logic surrounding Radulov's numbers. Hopefully the Devils front office takes a peak at his game from this past season, and doesn't make wild speculation about his current ability and give him away for pennies on the dollar like you're in support of.

I don't care how he did in 2013.  There've been 4 years since then.  Fine, add those numbers to what I said - they still stink for a guy who was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  When Kovalchuk came into the league to the year before he was traded to the Devils, he scored the most goals in the NHL over that time.  He was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  Now he's not even the best goal scorer in the 2nd best league in the world.  There are guys with more goals and more goals per game than him in the 2nd best league in the world, a league where many of the top players were guys who couldn't even make the NHL full-time.

My entire argument is based on everyone who's played in both the KHL and NHL.  Nigel Dawes and Stephane Da Costa were 3rd line players here and are star players there.  Dadonov was the same - will Dadonov be a good player here, if he comes over?  We don't know yet.  Will Shipachayov be good?  I don't know.  I think he'll be pretty good, a 'top 6' forward.  Will he put up a point and a half a game like he did in the KHL last season?  No, of course not.   Quite simply, you have to engage in a massive amount of cognitive dissonance to believe that Kovalchuk is one of the top goal scorers in the world still.  He's good, don't get me wrong.  He is just nowhere close to the elite goal scorer he was thought to be when he left (which he also wasn't, but that's another discussion).

Edited May 6, 2017 by Triumph

[Jersey Sure]

5 hours ago, Triumph said:

I don't care how he did in 2013.  There've been 4 years since then.  Fine, add those numbers to what I said - they still stink for a guy who was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  When Kovalchuk came into the league to the year before he was traded to the Devils, he scored the most goals in the NHL over that time.  He was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  Now he's not even the best goal scorer in the 2nd best league in the world.  There are guys with more goals and more goals per game than him in the 2nd best league in the world, a league where many of the top players were guys who couldn't even make the NHL full-time.

My entire argument is based on everyone who's played in both the KHL and NHL.  Nigel Dawes and Stephane Da Costa were 3rd line players here and are star players there.  Dadonov was the same - will Dadonov be a good player here, if he comes over?  We don't know yet.  Will Shipachayov be good?  I don't know.  I think he'll be pretty good, a 'top 6' forward.  Will he put up a point and a half a game like he did in the KHL last season?  No, of course not.   Quite simply, you have to engage in a massive amount of cognitive dissonance to believe that Kovalchuk is one of the top goal scorers in the world still.  He's good, don't get me wrong.  He is just nowhere close to the elite goal scorer he was thought to be when he left (which he also wasn't, but that's another discussion).

Quick question---Is the KHL considered the 2nd best?  For some reason I heard the AHL was?  And would you know what the dropoff is between a league like the KHL and some of the European leagues in comparison to something over here.  For example, the SEL =NCAA in terms of talent, or the KHL is the equivalent to the best AAA league in baseball.  Just curious if you might have some insight.  I'm curious as to when players come over from those places, what those leagues compare to. 

[thecoffeecake]

8 hours ago, Triumph said:

I don't care how he did in 2013.  There've been 4 years since then.  Fine, add those numbers to what I said - they still stink for a guy who was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  When Kovalchuk came into the league to the year before he was traded to the Devils, he scored the most goals in the NHL over that time.  He was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  Now he's not even the best goal scorer in the 2nd best league in the world.  There are guys with more goals and more goals per game than him in the 2nd best league in the world, a league where many of the top players were guys who couldn't even make the NHL full-time.

My entire argument is based on everyone who's played in both the KHL and NHL.  Nigel Dawes and Stephane Da Costa were 3rd line players here and are star players there.  Dadonov was the same - will Dadonov be a good player here, if he comes over?  We don't know yet.  Will Shipachayov be good?  I don't know.  I think he'll be pretty good, a 'top 6' forward.  Will he put up a point and a half a game like he did in the KHL last season?  No, of course not.   Quite simply, you have to engage in a massive amount of cognitive dissonance to believe that Kovalchuk is one of the top goal scorers in the world still.  He's good, don't get me wrong.  He is just nowhere close to the elite goal scorer he was thought to be when he left (which he also wasn't, but that's another discussion).

Well then your entire argument is garbage, because Kovalchuk's numbers have nothing to do with  those players. His KHL numbers haven't declined since we knew what kind of player he was, leading anyone to assume his ability hasn't declined. No sh!t he was less of a goal scorer here, his entire game changed after coming here. He played for Atlanta who was always terrible, of course he had to shoulder more of the load. That also leads to why you can't compare his numbers there to radulov's, when radulov played on a much worse team. I imagine he picked up a fair amount of the offensive slack. Remember when Kovalchuk would pick up the puck in his own slot and skate through 5 guys trying to go coast to coast when he first got here? He doesn't play that way anymore, and became a more effective player despite scoring a little less.

But, again, the only evidence you use to suggest he's significantly worse than he was in 2013 when he left is meaningless comparisons to other khlers and his age. But I can point to the fact that his production since going there hasn't declined, so it's safer to guess he's of the same caliber he was in 2013. Bottom line, it's ridiculous to think a 2nd round pick is good enough return for his rights.

[Triumph]

24 minutes ago, thecoffeecake said:

Well then your entire argument is garbage, because Kovalchuk's numbers have nothing to do with  those players. His KHL numbers haven't declined since we knew what kind of player he was, leading anyone to assume his ability hasn't declined. No sh!t he was less of a goal scorer here, his entire game changed after coming here. He played for Atlanta who was always terrible, of course he had to shoulder more of the load. That also leads to why you can't compare his numbers there to radulov's, when radulov played on a much worse team. I imagine he picked up a fair amount of the offensive slack. Remember when Kovalchuk would pick up the puck in his own slot and skate through 5 guys trying to go coast to coast when he first got here? He doesn't play that way anymore, and became a more effective player despite scoring a little less.

But, again, the only evidence you use to suggest he's significantly worse than he was in 2013 when he left is meaningless comparisons to other khlers and his age. But I can point to the fact that his production since going there hasn't declined, so it's safer to guess he's of the same caliber he was in 2013. Bottom line, it's ridiculous to think a 2nd round pick is good enough return for his rights.

Now great players do worse on great teams.  This is a rich argument for sure.  I'm hoping Kovalchuk does come back so you see, but it's entirely possible that you'll just come up with a million excuses.  He ages, and so does everyone else.

[thecoffeecake]

3 hours ago, Triumph said:

Now great players do worse on great teams.  This is a rich argument for sure.  I'm hoping Kovalchuk does come back so you see, but it's entirely possible that you'll just come up with a million excuses.  He ages, and so does everyone else.

Yea, his decline is coming, but it hasn't happened yet. He hasn't declined in production since he left, I don't get what's debatable about that.

[Daniel]

Now here's a crazy idea... Kovy for Brady Skjei.

[Devils Pride 26]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

Now here's a crazy idea... Kovy for Brady Skjei.

Can't imagine them being stupid enough to do that. 

[Daniel]

17 minutes ago, Devils Pride 26 said:

Can't imagine them being stupid enough to do that. 

The fact that they appear to be limiting his ice time in the playoffs leads me to believe they might be.

[MadDog2020]

Now here's a crazy idea... Kovy for Brady Skjei.

That's not crazy- it's batsh!t insane lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MadDog2020]

The fact that they appear to be limiting his ice time in the playoffs leads me to believe they might be.

Vigneault is a moron for that. They shouldn't be limiting his ice time. I hope they continue to though.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mfitz804]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

Now here's a crazy idea... Kovy for Brady Skjei.

It would annoy me to have a guy who pronounces "Skjei" "Shea". 

[Daniel]

21 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

That's not crazy- it's batsh!t insane lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Guess not as crazy as my other idea of Zacha for Noah Hannifin.

[Antiquated Colorado Rockie]

1 hour ago, Martyisth3b3st said:

Zacha for McDavid

if the Oilers add a fourth I'm in.

[Triumph]

10 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

Yea, his decline is coming, but it hasn't happened yet. He hasn't declined in production since he left, I don't get what's debatable about that.

BECAUSE HE PLAYS IN A DIFFERENT, EASIER LEAGUE

[thecoffeecake]

10 hours ago, Triumph said:

BECAUSE HE PLAYS IN A DIFFERENT, EASIER LEAGUE

The level of the league has nothing to do with the trajectory of his numbers. Under this theory, his numbers would have exploded once going to Russia, and declined to now. He still could've been putting up good numbers, but this argument holds no weight if there is zero decline.

[Triumph]

2 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

The level of the league has nothing to do with the trajectory of his numbers. Under this theory, his numbers would have exploded once going to Russia, and declined to now. He still could've been putting up good numbers, but this argument holds no weight if there is zero decline.

The general trend of the career is in decline, even if this season was better.  SKA scored way, way more goals this season as well - GPG for SKA over the last 4 years, as done by me without a calculator

2013-14:  3.22

2014-15:  3.5

2015-16:  2.94

2016-17:  4.14

[mfitz804]

It's ridiculous to think a guy won't have some decline after 5 years. Unless you're talking the first 5 years of a guy's career, it basically happens to everyone. That's not the issue.

The issue is, what can he do NOW on a short term deal. I am not ruling out a one year deal, because if he proves he's still got enough in the tank, he might like to be in a position to look for a significantly better deal in a year. 

[thecoffeecake]

2 hours ago, Triumph said:

The general trend of the career is in decline, even if this season was better.  SKA scored way, way more goals this season as well - GPG for SKA over the last 4 years, as done by me without a calculator

2013-14:  3.22

2014-15:  3.5

2015-16:  2.94

2016-17:  4.14

From Atlanta to Jersey, yea, he's declined production wise, but again, his style of play changed. From Jersey to Russia, and since he left, his numbers haven't begun to decline. You're not going to get 2004 Kovy, but the 2013 Kovy that the NHL is familiar with is still around.

Again, you haven't seen the guy play, so how would you have any idea what his raw ability still is? You wouldn't, is the answer.