nessus Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 The argument here is that Kovalchuk's production in the KHL has not declined since the lockout-shortened NHL season, which is right after he came off his most productive season as a Devil (and then had a decent season in the NHL). And by looking at the numbers alone, there was no decline in the KHL, so why does that suggest that there would be a decline if he came back to the NHL? Just look at some of the other KHL players and how they have done in the NHL. Linus Omark is consistently one of the top guys on his team, and this is someone who couldn't fit into the Oilers lineup when they were at their worst. It wasn't that long ago that Jonathan Cheechoo was a p/g player in the KHL, only a couple years back. That's not to mention Radulov, who outscored Kovalchuk in the KHL by a lot. Regardless of whether or not there is evidence of decline, a player should be absolutely crushing the KHL if you expect him to put up 2013-era Kovalchuk points in the NHL, especially if they have already reached their prime. There's also the argument of Kovalchuk's team essentially being the KHL all star team, but I won't even get into that. There's a chance I'm not right about this, and I hope that's the case, but IMO this is all the evidence you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted May 8, 2017 Share Posted May 8, 2017 12 minutes ago, nessus said: The argument here is that Kovalchuk's production in the KHL has not declined since the lockout-shortened NHL season, which is right after he came off his most productive season as a Devil (and then had a decent season in the NHL). And by looking at the numbers alone, there was no decline in the KHL, so why does that suggest that there would be a decline if he came back to the NHL? Just look at some of the other KHL players and how they have done in the NHL. Linus Omark is consistently one of the top guys on his team, and this is someone who couldn't fit into the Oilers lineup when they were at their worst. It wasn't that long ago that Jonathan Cheechoo was a p/g player in the KHL, only a couple years back. That's not to mention Radulov, who outscored Kovalchuk in the KHL by a lot. Regardless of whether or not there is evidence of decline, a player should be absolutely crushing the KHL if you expect him to put up 2013-era Kovalchuk points in the NHL, especially if they have already reached their prime. There's also the argument of Kovalchuk's team essentially being the KHL all star team, but I won't even get into that. There's a chance I'm not right about this, and I hope that's the case, but IMO this is all the evidence you need. You don't even have to cherry pick results, really, but all these examples are decently illustrative. The fact is, if you had asked someone 4 years ago, 'What if I told you that in 4 years, Ilya Kovalchuk will not have led the KHL in goals or points in a season, and never missed more than a half a season due to injury', the Kovalchuk backers here would say, no, that's insane. I would've said that's insane - I assumed he would crush that league because why wouldn't he? And yet here we are - not only has he never finished 1st in goal scoring, he's never even finished 2nd, either. A player who finished top 10 in the NHL in goals 7 straight years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 16 hours ago, Triumph said: You don't even have to cherry pick results, really, but all these examples are decently illustrative. The fact is, if you had asked someone 4 years ago, 'What if I told you that in 4 years, Ilya Kovalchuk will not have led the KHL in goals or points in a season, and never missed more than a half a season due to injury', the Kovalchuk backers here would say, no, that's insane. I would've said that's insane - I assumed he would crush that league because why wouldn't he? And yet here we are - not only has he never finished 1st in goal scoring, he's never even finished 2nd, either. A player who finished top 10 in the NHL in goals 7 straight years. "What if I told you in 4 years in the KHL, Kovalchuk's numbers wouldn't have started declining at all, would you expect him to be the same player?" It works both ways. I still don't have any idea what his place in KHL scoring has anything to do with his raw talent. He performed the same in Russia during the lockout, came back as a star first liner, left again and immediately put up the same numbers over there as he has his whole career there. So, if I'm following your argument, he declined due to age when he first went to Russia, had a renaissance half season in New Jersey, and sharply declined into the dawn of his career a few months later back in the KHL. Sounds good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 It's #officially #on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsfan118 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) Edit: to remove tweets 1 minute ago, Marshall said: It's #officially #on. Son of a bitch you beat me to the punch by like literally 30 seconds Edited May 9, 2017 by Devilsfan118 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 35 minutes ago, thecoffeecake said: "What if I told you in 4 years in the KHL, Kovalchuk's numbers wouldn't have started declining at all, would you expect him to be the same player?" It works both ways. I still don't have any idea what his place in KHL scoring has anything to do with his raw talent. He performed the same in Russia during the lockout, came back as a star first liner, left again and immediately put up the same numbers over there as he has his whole career there. So, if I'm following your argument, he declined due to age when he first went to Russia, had a renaissance half season in New Jersey, and sharply declined into the dawn of his career a few months later back in the KHL. Sounds good to me. lol okay. I'm done with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralous Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Well, this is exciting news. I never really had too much animosity towards Kovy after he left because I did think it was a good thing we got out from that contract when we did. That being said, now that we're in a rebuild situation, I just have absolutely no desire to see him in a Devils uniform ever again. I'm interested in what type of return we could get for him. With absolutely no proof to back up my claim, I can't imagine a lot of bad habits that he had when he first came here haven't crept back into his game after several years in the KHL. Again, not something I want around a team full of young players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Seems like this is going to play out a bit awkwardly. So he talks contract with multiple teams, some of whom will presumably offer better terms than others, and then at least some of those teams offer trade terms to Shero or vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilsfan118 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Trying to temper my expectations, but I really do think we can get a good piece for this guy. We can debate how good is he for the rest of the summer, but he was 2nd in the KHL last year in points and, especially since we have the luxury of being able to take back half his salary, he's a very appealing option for a contending team tight against the cap imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffleFries Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 28 minutes ago, Marshall said: It's #officially #on. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Daniel said: Seems like this is going to play out a bit awkwardly. So he talks contract with multiple teams, some of whom will presumably offer better terms than others, and then at least some of those teams offer trade terms to Shero or vice versa. Grossman's going to walk back to Shero with one deal, and then Shero's going to try to work out the sign-and-trade terms with that team. I assume that Shero gave Grossman some idea what he wants in a deal so that team is not operating in the dark when they go to negotiate the trade. That's why I keep circling back to a 2nd round pick as the likely basis for a deal. Edited May 9, 2017 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Not that I want him back (I don't), but I wonder if his ever playing for the Devils again has been completely ruled out by all involved as absolutely not an option, under any circumstances. Went through it a while back, but there really aren't that many ties left from the Devils he left behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffleFries Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Guys, Shero got a 2nd round pick to take 1 year of a 4mil cap hit from the Savard deal. I would be shocked if he wasn't able to pull off a trade where we retain some salary and get something serious back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 I think to him at this point the Devils seem like ancient history to Kovy. He wants back in the NHL but we're just some team that owns his rights...not "his" team. It would've been nice to at least see in that recent update that Kovalchuk wants to return to the Devils to make us feel a bit less jilted (still would want to trade him rather than him taking up a younger players roster spot) but I think he wants to go to another team at this point. Rangers are probably on that list...Blackhawks, Kings...both Florida teams I'm sure, Penguins, Caps etc. Dump him out west somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundstrom Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 If Kovy is going to be picky with teams, he's gonna have to take a sweetheart deal because Ray won't get screwed because it's a "best you can get" situation. Let's say it's only Florida (Kovy has a place on Fisher Island and his family loves FL). Well Ray isn't gonna hear it from Florida when they say, "we're the only ones bidding for him." So they will have to give something of value. And if they're gonna do that, they want Kovy at say, $4mm, not $6mm. He can say screw it and make Kovy wait Ray holds all the cards this year. I think he gets more than a 2nd. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsMan84 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, '7' said: I think to him at this point the Devils seem like ancient history to Kovy. He wants back in the NHL but we're just some team that owns his rights...not "his" team. It would've been nice to at least see in that recent update that Kovalchuk wants to return to the Devils to make us feel a bit less jilted (still would want to trade him rather than him taking up a younger players roster spot) but I think he wants to go to another team at this point. Rangers are probably on that list...Blackhawks, Kings...both Florida teams I'm sure, Penguins, Caps etc. Dump him out west somewhere. Agreed. Hope they send his ass to wallow over in Vancouver. fvck him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer91 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 On 4/23/2017 at 2:33 PM, Triumph said: I don't see how the Devils get a 1st for Kovalchuk. If Kovalchuk signs here for a year and does well, the Devils will probably look to keep him - they'll probably be doing well enough that they won't look to move him at the deadline. And why would Kovalchuk sign somewhere where that could happen? I would assume he would request an NTC. Even if he doesn't, you're asking for a situation where Kovalchuk does well, the Devils don't, and they look to move him. What are the odds that these things come together? I'd rather take a pick and move on. We just went through a time when the Devils relied on top player(s) who were well past their prime, guessing whether they could maintain their level of play for one more year. I don't want a repeat of that. That may be the case, but if I was Shero I am only saying I am looking for prospects or picks and leave it open ended for the Kovy Destination to give their best proposal. There is just a lot of possibilities, Devils adding a pick to get back a higher pick, or for us to retain to get a higher pick etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 15 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said: Not that I want him back (I don't), but I wonder if his ever playing for the Devils again has been completely ruled out by all involved as absolutely not an option, under any circumstances. Went through it a while back, but there really aren't that many ties left from the Devils he left behind. McKenzie stated that he thinks Kovy wants to compete for a Cup, his window is closing and he doesn't want to be part of the rebuild. The local guys, Gross and Chris Ryan are tweeting that Shero wants to "keep his options open." So I still think that Shero's message to Grossman is that if your client really wants to come back this year, we're not going to get short changed in a trade. So you better get multiple contract offers that you can live with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer91 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Daniel said: McKenzie stated that he thinks Kovy wants to compete for a Cup, his window is closing and he doesn't want to be part of the rebuild. The local guys, Gross and Chris Ryan are tweeting that Shero wants to "keep his options open." So I still think that Shero's message to Grossman is that if your client really wants to come back this year, we're not going to get short changed in a trade. So you better get multiple contract offers that you can live with. Think its likely that perhaps Grossman approaches Shero with 2 or 3 offers an possibly lets Shero decide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 6 minutes ago, lucifer91 said: Think its likely that perhaps Grossman approaches Shero with 2 or 3 offers an possibly lets Shero decide? I guess Shero then negotiates trade terms with those teams. I think though that Grossman won't be totally tone deaf and talk to the Rangers or Flyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimaira_Devil_#9 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Back when we signed him there was lots of talk about LA making a play for him as well. Wonder if that would still be of interest to him? I know they missed the playoffs this year but they seem closer to be able to go on a cup run than us. They really lacked goals last season so he could be an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Just now, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said: Back when we signed him there was lots of talk about LA making a play for him as well. Wonder if that would still be of interest to him? I know they missed the playoffs this year but they seem closer to be able to go on a cup run than us. They really lacked goals last season so he could be an option. Kovy's camp kept desperately trying to pull LA in...LA was kind of willing (not with much enthusiasm), but not for the kind of money Kovy was looking for. I still think that's where he really wanted to go deep down, but in the end, the Kings just weren't all that interested (and no one else seemed to be either at that term and those dollars). Who knows if will ever come to this (I suspect that it won't), but there's a part of me that wonders, should no one really step up with an offer to Shero's liking, if Shero goes back to Kovy's agent and simply says, "Look, I'm not going to get completely screwed here, so if your client really wants to play in the NHL, he's going to have to do it for us to start, and if he shows something, then I can deal him for something that makes sense for my team. I know this isn't how we planned it, but it is what it is." I know, obviously if Kovy did actually come here and play well and the team was somehow fighting for a playoff berth, then why trade him under those circumstances? I'd just like to know what kind of price Shero actually has in mind...if it's actually less than any of us are thinking. I'm thinking 2nd-rounder and something smaller (like a 5th rounder)...there's just too much uncertainty as to what Kovy can be in the NHL at this point that I don't see how Shero can get much more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munichdevil Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Somehow things seem to be falling into place lately... McLeod having a great season, winning the lottery and now getting something for nothing in a trade... not a bad end to a really bad season. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) The other option is a huge conditional deal. So let's say he goes to a Cup contender, the deal could be something like - 2018 2nd, with all of these being in addition to that pick, and all the conditionals being contingent on Kovalchuk playing half the games involved IF: That team trades Kovalchuk in 2018, the Devils get a 3rd in 2018 or 2019. If they trade Kovalchuk before January 1, 2018: the Devils get a 1st round pick in 2018 IF: That team wins a playoff round, 2018 4th IF: They win 2 playoff rounds, 2018 3rd IF: They win 3 playoff rounds: 2019 2nd IF They win the Stanley Cup: 2018 1st Edited May 9, 2017 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLinfante Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Triumph said: IF: That team trades Kovalchuk in 2018, the Devils get a 3rd in 2018 or 2019. If they trade Kovalchuk before January 1, 2018: the Devils get a 1st round pick in 2018 To ensure that Shero has some say over where he ends up or is compensated for not having that say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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