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In Russia NHL returns you. Kovalchuk staying in KHL.


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On 04/24/2017 at 0:16 AM, Triumph said:

While this certainly exists, I can't imagine it's a widely-held belief among Devils fans at large - I certainly think Kovalchuk would get plenty of boos if were to become a Devil again.  Gomez left for the Rangers, but he did so 7 years before he came back, and went through 3 other teams in between, plus he had 2 Stanley Cups with the team.  Kovalchuk has very little of that on him, plus he had a signed contract and left - it's just a different scenario.

What Kovy did isn't even in the same conversation as the Gomez thing. What Gomer did was so much worse in every way, and there certainly wasn't a 7 year statute of limitations on it. The fact that he won two cups here makes it worse.

On 04/24/2017 at 10:05 AM, SMantzas said:

It just isnt good use of a free asset that probably doesnt want to play here and is old

If you want to talk about a poor use of a free asset, talk about signing and trading a guy whose value is almost guaranteed to be substantially higher come next March if he were to come back.

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10 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

If you want to talk about a poor use of a free asset, talk about signing and trading a guy whose value is almost guaranteed to be substantially higher come next March if he were to come back.

...unless we consider that having him will probably push the Devils up in the standings.  And if we're in a position to trade him at the deadline (i.e. not seriously pushing for a playoff spot) then having him here for the whole season might actually hurt us as we'll have a potentially worse position in the draft.

Sounds stupid to even be talking about next year's draft when we haven't even had this year's lottery yet, I know.

Edited by Devilsfan118
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12 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

What Kovy did isn't even in the same conversation as the Gomez thing. What Gomer did was so much worse in every way, and there certainly wasn't a 7 year statute of limitations on it. The fact that he won two cups here makes it worse.

If you want to talk about a poor use of a free asset, talk about signing and trading a guy whose value is almost guaranteed to be substantially higher come next March if he were to come back.

That is a baseless assumption. 

Kovalchuk could just as easily go 15-15-30 in 60 games and garner little interest at the deadline and we would've lost a chance to get better picks and prospects. Everyone here is acting like he's some shoe in for 30 goals and 50+ points, but that's not the case at all. 

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41 minutes ago, SMantzas said:

That is a baseless assumption. 

Kovalchuk could just as easily go 15-15-30 in 60 games and garner little interest at the deadline and we would've lost a chance to get better picks and prospects. Everyone here is acting like he's some shoe in for 30 goals and 50+ points, but that's not the case at all. 

Of course it's possible, but just as likely? No.

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1 hour ago, SMantzas said:

That is a baseless assumption. 

Kovalchuk could just as easily go 15-15-30 in 60 games and garner little interest at the deadline and we would've lost a chance to get better picks and prospects. Everyone here is acting like he's some shoe in for 30 goals and 50+ points, but that's not the case at all. 

You obviously explore what you can get in a sign and trade now.  But unless the return now exceeds expectations, I would roll the dice on a one year deal for a better return at the deadline.  By that, I mean that if you're being offered a B prospect or a second round pick for the sign and trade, you say no thank you.  Even if he only puts up 30 points (which is really a worst case scenario) you're getting the same return.  If he wants to play chicken and sit out the year, that's fine too.

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30 minutes ago, Triumph said:

I don't see why Kovalchuk would want to play in a scenario which includes a likely trade during the NHL season.  Kovalchuk's agent is not an idiot, and I'm sure that he is aware that the Devils have sold at the last 3 trade deadlines.  

No matter where he goes though, he's still going to be 34 years old, and therefore not much more than a "rental" to some contender if he were to be shipped and shopped around at the deadline.  So why not come back to the team you last played for, a team that needs offensive production, and try to help them accomplish something?  The point is, if Kovy actually plays well, I don't see him as a rental to us and us trying to flip him for returns.  I mean it's possible, but the dude isn't quite over the hill yet, and while he may not be a Jagr (who really is anyway?), if he does in fact come back and play well, it could point to signs that A) this guy is a slightly different breed and isn't declining as fast as people thought and B ) playing overseas may have actually lengthened his career and put less miles on him.  So while it would be foolish to say that someone who is 34-35 years old would be part of a "long term future plan" per se, I don't necessarily think he would have to be considered the exact opposite, which is a declining guy you market in order to just get the highest possible return.  He could easily play for us for the next 4-5 years and be a productive veteran on the top two lines -- something we are in dire need of.

Basically, I feel there's more gray area than people.  Most are saying he's either bonafide #1 just like he was before he left, or a shadow of himself and someone we flip, even if his value declines.  I'm saying I think it's possible for it to be somewhere in between.

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1 hour ago, Triumph said:

I don't see why Kovalchuk would want to play in a scenario which includes a likely trade during the NHL season.  Kovalchuk's agent is not an idiot, and I'm sure that he is aware that the Devils have sold at the last 3 trade deadlines.  

Why not?  This gets him into the NHL a year sooner, and if he gets traded at the deadline, it's most likely to a team looking to bolster up before making a run.  Granted this is all under the belief that he's coming back because he wants to win a cup.

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1 hour ago, Triumph said:

I don't see why Kovalchuk would want to play in a scenario which includes a likely trade during the NHL season.  Kovalchuk's agent is not an idiot, and I'm sure that he is aware that the Devils have sold at the last 3 trade deadlines.  

That's how negotiations work.  If Kovalchuk really wants to play in the NHL this year, Shero holds all the cards, and Kovy and his agent know that.  If Shero doesn't like the immediate return, he could force Kovalchuk to deal with a late season trade. 

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14 minutes ago, Crisis said:

Why not?  This gets him into the NHL a year sooner, and if he gets traded at the deadline, it's most likely to a team looking to bolster up before making a run.  Granted this is all under the belief that he's coming back because he wants to win a cup.

Because he's a person and people don't generally like moving?  Plus there's the need to learn a new system, new teammates, new coach, and so on.  I think if you asked NHL players if they would rather spend a whole season with a team or be traded mid-season, almost all of them would say they'd rather start the year there.

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

That's how negotiations work.  If Kovalchuk really wants to play in the NHL this year, Shero holds all the cards, and Kovy and his agent know that.  If Shero doesn't like the immediate return, he could force Kovalchuk to deal with a late season trade. 

Or he could tell Shero to piss up a rope and go back to the KHL and leave Shero with nothing for his rights.  If things start stalling with Shero and a return to the NHL, you know that Russian papers will start to leak that SKA is close to signing him again.  That's how this has always played out.

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3 minutes ago, Triumph said:

 

Or he could tell Shero to piss up a rope and go back to the KHL and leave Shero with nothing for his rights.  If things start stalling with Shero and a return to the NHL, you know that Russian papers will start to leak that SKA is close to signing him again.  That's how this has always played out.

If he's doing this to negotiate a better deal in the KHL, then it's a dog and pony show anyway.  Or, he could have just signed a one year deal with SKA, and come back to the NHL next year when he's supposedly able to sign with any team he wants.  Leads me to believe that SKA isn't interested in that, as it almost certainly would have happened already.

Bottom line is that every indication is that he wants to come back to the NHL for next season.   Shero has veto power over that.  If I'm him, and all I'm getting offered right now is a second round pick or some other return that the odds say will not turn into all that much, I call his bluff and tell him to go back to Russia for another year -- if SKA even wants him back at that point -- and see if he can have another season like he did this past year. 

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Update from Kovalchuk status

 
1- Kovalchuk will have a litte surgery this week in Munich. Left knee. He should be fine for the beginning of the season.
 
2- He wants to explore the NHL possibilty. But it's not set in the stone on whether he will be back or not for next season. 
 
3- If he comes back, he has one thing in mind and it's to win the stanley cup in a window of 3-4 years. (Not sure if it's with the Devils)
 
4- Bob Hartley saw a lot of him by watching KHL games and he believes that his game is has good has it was 4 years ago.
 
5- Olympic status is important for him and shipachev... both wants to be part of Russia Olympic team.
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13 minutes ago, Daniel said:

If he's doing this to negotiate a better deal in the KHL, then it's a dog and pony show anyway.  Or, he could have just signed a one year deal with SKA, and come back to the NHL next year when he's supposedly able to sign with any team he wants.  Leads me to believe that SKA isn't interested in that, as it almost certainly would have happened already.

Bottom line is that every indication is that he wants to come back to the NHL for next season.   Shero has veto power over that.  If I'm him, and all I'm getting offered right now is a second round pick or some other return that the odds say will not turn into all that much, I call his bluff and tell him to go back to Russia for another year -- if SKA even wants him back at that point -- and see if he can have another season like he did this past year. 

Ilya Kovalchuk has been quoted from as far back as 2000 that he would like to play professional hockey in Russia.  He played in Russia in September 2006 before getting a deal with Atlanta and he was close to starting to play there in 2010 before getting that 2nd deal with New Jersey.  Then in 2013 he finally left the NHL for Russia.  Russia is his home country, the KHL has an easier schedule (albeit with more travel), and the style of play is more relaxed.  I don't know that Kovalchuk prefers playing in Russia, but he certainly doesn't seem to not prefer it.

Now imagine you are in Kovalchuk's place and you're looking into playing in the NHL again.  You don't know the NHL league bylaws or any of that bullsh!t.  Your agent takes care of that.  You think you're a free agent and you want to play where you want to play, like any free agent would.

Now, you get told by your agent that the Devils are coming in and saying they won't let you play where you want to play.  They actually control things here and they're not getting enough in return to trade you to the team you want to play for.  What would be your response?   

Again, if the Devils 'call a bluff', they have a bluff as well.  It's bluff versus bluff here.  

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3 minutes ago, Triumph said:

Ilya Kovalchuk has been quoted from as far back as 2000 that he would like to play professional hockey in Russia.  He played in Russia in September 2006 before getting a deal with Atlanta and he was close to starting to play there in 2010 before getting that 2nd deal with New Jersey.  Then in 2013 he finally left the NHL for Russia.  Russia is his home country, the KHL has an easier schedule (albeit with more travel), and the style of play is more relaxed.  I don't know that Kovalchuk prefers playing in Russia, but he certainly doesn't seem to not prefer it.

Now imagine you are in Kovalchuk's place and you're looking into playing in the NHL again.  You don't know the NHL league bylaws or any of that bullsh!t.  Your agent takes care of that.  You think you're a free agent and you want to play where you want to play, like any free agent would.

Now, you get told by your agent that the Devils are coming in and saying they won't let you play where you want to play.  They actually control things here and they're not getting enough in return to trade you to the team you want to play for.  What would be your response?   

Again, if the Devils 'call a bluff', they have a bluff as well.  It's bluff versus bluff here.  

I know you hate the guy and think he's an even worse player than whoever, but he's not a mimbo.  Unless the information that Friedman's getting is incorrect, I'm sure he's known for some time that the Devils control his rights for at least this year, or he certainly knows it now.  He can get that one year deal in Russia now if someone's willing to give it to him, or he has to play by Shero's rules if he really wants to play in the NHL this year.  The fact that he's even going through the motions, or appears to be anyway, suggests that's what he wants.  So, I'll risk that second round pick in 2035 if it means taking a risk that he'll wait another year.

The only other reason to take what you can get now is that you can at least control where he goes if its a longish term deal.  There's something to be said for him ending up on the Rangers in two years.  Of course, he's the worst player on earth so he'd be doing us a favor.

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2 hours ago, Daniel said:

I know you hate the guy and think he's an even worse player than whoever, but he's not a mimbo.  Unless the information that Friedman's getting is incorrect, I'm sure he's known for some time that the Devils control his rights for at least this year, or he certainly knows it now.  He can get that one year deal in Russia now if someone's willing to give it to him, or he has to play by Shero's rules if he really wants to play in the NHL this year.  The fact that he's even going through the motions, or appears to be anyway, suggests that's what he wants.  So, I'll risk that second round pick in 2035 if it means taking a risk that he'll wait another year.

The only other reason to take what you can get now is that you can at least control where he goes if its a longish term deal.  There's something to be said for him ending up on the Rangers in two years.  Of course, he's the worst player on earth so he'd be doing us a favor.

I don't hate Kovalchuk and he's not a terrible player; we've already gone over how I feel about him.   I agree that he probably knows that now, but his agent has probably told him, after speaking with Shero, that they can work out a trade.  He's going through the motions because at the very least, his Russian team gets worried he'll leave and he can go back there having extracted the maximum from them.

The Devils really can't do anything to keep him off the Rangers past this year.  It really doesn't concern me that he would go there - he's the last thing they need - but I don't think Shero should trade him there.

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21 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

Of course it's possible, but just as likely? No.

30 points in 60 games translates to 40 or so points over a full season. Radulov, who put up far superior numbers in the KHL and on a worse team, just put up 54 points. FFS, MTL scored 43 more goals than NJ, not to mention Radulov is 3+ years younger than Kovy. The diffference between a guy who just turned 30 and a guy in his mid 30s is usually pretty big. I believe thats it much more likely he gets under 50 points than over when you consider the above.

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6 hours ago, SMantzas said:

30 points in 60 games translates to 40 or so points over a full season. Radulov, who put up far superior numbers in the KHL and on a worse team, just put up 54 points. FFS, MTL scored 43 more goals than NJ, not to mention Radulov is 3+ years younger than Kovy. The diffference between a guy who just turned 30 and a guy in his mid 30s is usually pretty big. I believe thats it much more likely he gets under 50 points than over when you consider the above.

Unless, of course, Kovy gets Radulov to come here too, in which case, totally worth it. 

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13 hours ago, SMantzas said:

30 points in 60 games translates to 40 or so points over a full season. Radulov, who put up far superior numbers in the KHL and on a worse team, just put up 54 points. FFS, MTL scored 43 more goals than NJ, not to mention Radulov is 3+ years younger than Kovy. The diffference between a guy who just turned 30 and a guy in his mid 30s is usually pretty big. I believe thats it much more likely he gets under 50 points than over when you consider the above.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Let's start with the fact that Kovy scored 32 goals and 78 points in the KHL this season. Serious question, are we still talking about the same thing? I see Radulov as having put up 65 points in his last season in Russia. Again, as long as we're talking about Kovy, and I'm not entirely sure that we are, I wouldn't consider 65 points "far superior" to 78. And I'm certainly not going to follow the absurd line of reasoning that Kovy and Radulov's numbers have anything to do with each other, or that you can formulate an idea of what he'll do based on his KHL numbers, but if that's where you want to go, you can run the updated math. It probably won't predict 40 points.

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12 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Let's start with the fact that Kovy scored 32 goals and 78 points in the KHL this season. Serious question, are we still talking about the same thing? I see Radulov as having put up 65 points in his last season in Russia. Again, as long as we're talking about Kovy, and I'm not entirely sure that we are, I wouldn't consider 65 points "far superior" to 78. And I'm certainly not going to follow the absurd line of reasoning that Kovy and Radulov's numbers have anything to do with each other, or that you can formulate an idea of what he'll do based on his KHL numbers, but if that's where you want to go, you can run the updated math. It probably won't predict 40 points.

 

First of all, I think you're really underestimating how good Kovalchuk's team is compared to the rest of the league. They are head and shoulders the best team in the KHL. Consider that SKA scored 52 goals more than the next closest team last season!

Kovalchuk's season is less impressive when you consider Shipachev had 2 less points in 10 less games and Kovy's ppg was only .06 better than Gusev and Dadanov. Let's not act like he was easily the best player on his team. It's probably even less impressive when you factor in he got favorable linemates and ice time (like a crap ton of PP time). Though , I'm speculating on the last part. 

Using a one year sample size is not ideal when comparing players. Over their last 3 KHL seasons, Radulov put up a 1.28 ppg, compared to Kovy's 1.11 ppg. The contrast is even more stark when you consider Kovalchuk has generally played with much better players than Radulov. When you factor in past KHL production, the teams they played on, age and the fact that Kovy seems to be having a knee procedure this summer, it's insane to think he'll do better than Radulov since Radulov has been the far superior player recently. 

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On 04/26/2017 at 2:49 PM, Triumph said:

Because he's a person and people don't generally like moving?  Plus there's the need to learn a new system, new teammates, new coach, and so on.  I think if you asked NHL players if they would rather spend a whole season with a team or be traded mid-season, almost all of them would say they'd rather start the year there.

Or he could tell Shero to piss up a rope and go back to the KHL and leave Shero with nothing for his rights.  If things start stalling with Shero and a return to the NHL, you know that Russian papers will start to leak that SKA is close to signing him again.  That's how this has always played out.

So? Let him go back, and we're in the same position we're in right now. Shero certainly isn't going to be held hostage by the agent of a KHL player. He does it Jersey's way or he can waste the rest of his career over there. It's a no lose situation for the Devils.

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13 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

So? Let him go back, and we're in the same position we're in right now. Shero certainly isn't going to be held hostage by the agent of a KHL player. He does it Jersey's way or he can waste the rest of his career over there. It's a no lose situation for the Devils.

Or he just goes back to Russia for a year and NJ misses the opportunity to get assets back. Then,  he is free to sign with any NHL team.

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2 hours ago, SMantzas said:

Or he just goes back to Russia for a year and NJ misses the opportunity to get assets back. Then,  he is free to sign with any NHL team.

Can't allow that to happen. Either sign him and play him or sign him and trade him. If he wants to play, make sure it's this year either way. 

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Seeing tons of online chatter about Shero saying something along the lines of "I'm going to call kovalchuk". Any idea what that's about?

https://mobile.twitter.com/JSportsnet/status/858448253930655744?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fhfboards.hockeysfuture.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D2221313%26page%3D34


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