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In Russia NHL returns you. Kovalchuk staying in KHL.

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Someone floated the idea somewhere that NJ gets to choose a Minnesota dman and trade Kovy for that dman since a deal cant be made until July 1st

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15 hours ago, Triumph said:

How much do you think 34 year old rental wingers get?  Calgary got very little for Jarome Iginla when they dealt him and he only was a year older and Jarome f-ing Iginla.  He had an NTC and used it.  This idea that the Devils can just sign Kovalchuk to whatever and he'll just contentedly stay here waiting for his deadline deal - it's just not very realistic.

A 43yo Jagr got a 2nd and 3rd in February; with 29pts in 57 games... as a UFA.   Lee Stempniak got a 2nd and a 3rd as well.

I think you could trade Kovy for at least a 2nd as the floor...  likely 2nd and a prospect, etc.   I'd still press him to stay the season to at least the deadline to see what he can do for us in the "New York" area...   before we trade him to a tax-free Florida team? 

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1 hour ago, Triumph said:

Haha, the amount of delusion about Kovalchuk among Devils fans is very real.  He's put up one great KHL season.  Radulov has way outscored him in the KHL and he has been on generally worse offensive teams.  Now that great KHL season was this past season so I guess that's a good sign, but even with 4 seasons in the KHL and a lot of playoffless seasons here he has played a ton of hockey.  He is 34.  Almost every player is worse at 34 than they were in their prime; most are considerably worse. 

Kovalchuk gets to dictate how this plays out or else he doesn't sign, it's that simple.  He goes back to Russia and waits a year if he doesn't like the terms he's being offered.

I'm sorry, what exactly does Radulov have to do with Kovalchuk? Look at Kovy's numbers during his last seasons here and those first two seasons he jumped  back and forth to the KHL. His production was virtually the same in both leagues. How does the fact that he just had his best KHL season, a league where he  spent the end of his prime, not indicate to you that his skills haven't dramatically dropped off? Better yet, instead of wikipediaing his and Radulov's numbers, why don't you turn on 1WorldSports and find a rerun of a CSA game from this season, and then tell me that his raw talent still isn't elite.

Kovalchuk dictates nothing. Like you said, who cares if he goes to the Rangers in 2018? He does things Shero's way or goes back to Russia. Simple.

The bidding war for him is going to be very real, and the idea of giving away an asset like that for a second round pick right at the start is absolute nonsense.

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11 minutes ago, thecoffeecake said:

I'm sorry, what exactly does Radulov have to do with Kovalchuk? Look at Kovy's numbers during his last seasons here and those first two seasons he jumped  back and forth to the KHL. His production was virtually the same in both leagues. How does the fact that he just had his best KHL season, a league where he  spent the end of his prime, not indicate to you that his skills haven't dramatically dropped off? Better yet, instead of wikipediaing his and Radulov's numbers, why don't you turn on 1WorldSports and find a rerun of a CSA game from this season, and then tell me that his raw talent still isn't elite.

Kovalchuk dictates nothing. Like you said, who cares if he goes to the Rangers in 2018? He does things Shero's way or goes back to Russia. Simple.

The bidding war for him is going to be very real, and the idea of giving away an asset like that for a second round pick right at the start is absolute nonsense.

The KHL is a way worse league than the NHL.  It is on par with the AHL, and when you consider the fact that Kovalchuk plays on a super team that has 5 or 6 NHL quality forwards on it, it's entirely possible that the aggregate ability of the rest of the league is AHL quality.  His production should be way better in that league than it is in the NHL because it is a vastly inferior league.  Like, say, Alex Radulov's production is, just to take an example that I thought of off the top of my head.

Kovalchuk plays way more minutes in the NHL than he does in the KHL, so that's one reason why his numbers there shouldn't be compared to his numbers here across the board.  Kovalchuk is no longer an elite goal scorer.  He has not been one for 5 seasons now.  He's just a garden-variety 1st/2nd line NHL forward now.  The 'bidding war' for him wasn't very real in 2011 - only two teams made significant offers - and now he has a KHL defection and many more years on his resume.  

Edited by Triumph

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14 minutes ago, aylbert said:

A 43yo Jagr got a 2nd and 3rd in February; with 29pts in 57 games... as a UFA.   Lee Stempniak got a 2nd and a 3rd as well.

I think you could trade Kovy for at least a 2nd as the floor...  likely 2nd and a prospect, etc.   I'd still press him to stay the season to at least the deadline to see what he can do for us in the "New York" area...   before we trade him to a tax-free Florida team? 

Jagr didn't have an NTC.  Neither did Stempniak.  Kovalchuk effectively has an NTC because he's not under an NHL contract.  He's not going to sign one unless he knows for sure where he is going.  That team knows that the Devils can't demand too much or else they risk blowing up the deal altogether.

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1 hour ago, Triumph said:

Chuck:  Yeah, of course, obviously Shero won't send him to the Rangers unless he gets a huge return, but unless Kovalchuk really misses the NHL, it'll be hard to strong arm him into taking any deal he doesn't want.

I don't care if Kovalchuk plays for the Rangers in 2018-19.  Neither should Shero.

I get what you are saying.  That's why it won't be easy to get any deal done, assuming Kovy has the limitations on where he will play that have ben reported.  But there is a very real reason the Devils have never made a trade with the Rags, and never will.  If he goes there and helps them win a Stanley Cup, Shero becomes a pariah and the large majority of fans, rightly or wrongly, will never forgive him.  I just can't see him getting traded to the Rags for any return, unless it is so 1 sided it makes Washington's decision in the Erat for Forserg deal look good.

I also don't understand why he would be willing to play in Tampa, but not a place like Boston, Pitt, Washington, Buffalo, etc.  His home in Florida is outside of Miami.  It's not like Tampa is a 20 minute drive away.  He'd have to fly home on an off day, and could easily do the same thing to his home in NJ if he played in one of the other cities I previously mentioned.

  

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Don't settle for anything less than a 1st or a top line type player

If the deal isn't available and he refuses to play for us....let him rot in Mother Russia

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3 hours ago, Triumph said:

Jagr didn't have an NTC.  Neither did Stempniak.  Kovalchuk effectively has an NTC because he's not under an NHL contract.  He's not going to sign one unless he knows for sure where he is going.  That team knows that the Devils can't demand too much or else they risk blowing up the deal altogether.

But we can't trade him without a contract anyway...    

My whole argument is on his worth to other teams;  I wouldn't accept a contingent 3rd for him.  I'd want a 2nd and more.
Ideally, I'd rather just have him playing for us and help us get back into the playoffs; but if he want's to be on a competitive team; you sign him to a 1yr deal and trade him to a willing team.  The only willing teams would be competitive, win-now teams who will happily trade their 2nd rounder plus for a top 6 player.

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4 hours ago, Triumph said:

The KHL is a way worse league than the NHL.  It is on par with the AHL, and when you consider the fact that Kovalchuk plays on a super team that has 5 or 6 NHL quality forwards on it, it's entirely possible that the aggregate ability of the rest of the league is AHL quality.  His production should be way better in that league than it is in the NHL because it is a vastly inferior league.  Like, say, Alex Radulov's production is, just to take an example that I thought of off the top of my head.

Kovalchuk plays way more minutes in the NHL than he does in the KHL, so that's one reason why his numbers there shouldn't be compared to his numbers here across the board.  Kovalchuk is no longer an elite goal scorer.  He has not been one for 5 seasons now.  He's just a garden-variety 1st/2nd line NHL forward now.  The 'bidding war' for him wasn't very real in 2011 - only two teams made significant offers - and now he has a KHL defection and many more years on his resume.  

It doesn't matter if he was playing in the ECHL, the point is that his numbers haven't started to decline yet, leaving you zero evidence that he's not an elite level player anymore. You're not comparing his numbers in each league for the sake of raw value. The Radulov argument is absolutely meaningless, because the two have nothing to do with each other. Go catch some highlights of Kovy from this season, then try telling me he doesn't possess the talents he had in his prime.

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Let's be real about this whole situation. If Kovy is serious about coming back to the NHL, Shero should use and apply all leverage possible. Offer him a fair 1 or 2 year $4-4.5 million/year contract. He hasn't played in the NHL for 5 years, so tough luck. The NTC shouldn't be an issue, because I don't see a team that isn't looking to win now even be interested in Kovy. If he wants more money Shero should just tell him that it is not going to happen, and he can stay in the KHL. This should be viewed as an unexpected opportunity, and nothing more than that. Now lets say he signs the contract, I also believe that it should be understood that the greater picture would be to trade him. I personally would be looking for a 1st or a good prospect, and if nothing close to that is available then allow him to play and look to trade him at the deadline when teams are desperate and looking to fill in their weaknesses. The price of the contract will also allow for good teams to be able to find cap space for him. At the end of the day Shero needs to understand that Kovalchuk has no future with the Devils, and that Kovy has absolutely no leverage. We've been rebuilding with out the thought of him coming back, and we can continue to do so. 

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2 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

It doesn't matter if he was playing in the ECHL, the point is that his numbers haven't started to decline yet, leaving you zero evidence that he's not an elite level player anymore. You're not comparing his numbers in each league for the sake of raw value. The Radulov argument is absolutely meaningless, because the two have nothing to do with each other. Go catch some highlights of Kovy from this season, then try telling me he doesn't possess the talents he had in his prime.

This is incorrect.  We expect players to do better in worse leagues.  This is why players who go from the NHL to the KHL generally do better and players who come from the KHL to the NHL generally do worse.  Since leaving the NHL, he has 89 goals in 209 games.   This is actually a worse rate than his career numbers in the NHL.  He has unquestionably declined.  I don't need to watch highlights - Kovalchuk obviously was once an elite player and that ability doesn't go away forever, it just comes out less and less often.  

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36 minutes ago, Triumph said:

This is incorrect.  We expect players to do better in worse leagues.  This is why players who go from the NHL to the KHL generally do better and players who come from the KHL to the NHL generally do worse.  Since leaving the NHL, he has 89 goals in 209 games.   This is actually a worse rate than his career numbers in the NHL.  He has unquestionably declined.  I don't need to watch highlights - Kovalchuk obviously was once an elite player and that ability doesn't go away forever, it just comes out less and less often.  

Again, look at his numbers when he went over during the lockout and his first full season over there. We know  what kind of ability he had at that point, and he's produced  at that level or above that level since. You cannot just look at his numbers either way. You admittedly haven't seen him play recently and have no idea whether or not he plays at a consistently high level. Your  entire argument is based on some backwards logic surrounding Radulov's numbers. Hopefully the Devils front office takes a peak at his game from this past season, and doesn't make wild speculation about his current ability and give him away for pennies on the dollar like you're in support of.

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6 hours ago, thecoffeecake said:

Again, look at his numbers when he went over during the lockout and his first full season over there. We know  what kind of ability he had at that point, and he's produced  at that level or above that level since. You cannot just look at his numbers either way. You admittedly haven't seen him play recently and have no idea whether or not he plays at a consistently high level. Your  entire argument is based on some backwards logic surrounding Radulov's numbers. Hopefully the Devils front office takes a peak at his game from this past season, and doesn't make wild speculation about his current ability and give him away for pennies on the dollar like you're in support of.

I don't care how he did in 2013.  There've been 4 years since then.  Fine, add those numbers to what I said - they still stink for a guy who was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  When Kovalchuk came into the league to the year before he was traded to the Devils, he scored the most goals in the NHL over that time.  He was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  Now he's not even the best goal scorer in the 2nd best league in the world.  There are guys with more goals and more goals per game than him in the 2nd best league in the world, a league where many of the top players were guys who couldn't even make the NHL full-time.

My entire argument is based on everyone who's played in both the KHL and NHL.  Nigel Dawes and Stephane Da Costa were 3rd line players here and are star players there.  Dadonov was the same - will Dadonov be a good player here, if he comes over?  We don't know yet.  Will Shipachayov be good?  I don't know.  I think he'll be pretty good, a 'top 6' forward.  Will he put up a point and a half a game like he did in the KHL last season?  No, of course not.   Quite simply, you have to engage in a massive amount of cognitive dissonance to believe that Kovalchuk is one of the top goal scorers in the world still.  He's good, don't get me wrong.  He is just nowhere close to the elite goal scorer he was thought to be when he left (which he also wasn't, but that's another discussion).

Edited by Triumph

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5 hours ago, Triumph said:

I don't care how he did in 2013.  There've been 4 years since then.  Fine, add those numbers to what I said - they still stink for a guy who was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  When Kovalchuk came into the league to the year before he was traded to the Devils, he scored the most goals in the NHL over that time.  He was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  Now he's not even the best goal scorer in the 2nd best league in the world.  There are guys with more goals and more goals per game than him in the 2nd best league in the world, a league where many of the top players were guys who couldn't even make the NHL full-time.

My entire argument is based on everyone who's played in both the KHL and NHL.  Nigel Dawes and Stephane Da Costa were 3rd line players here and are star players there.  Dadonov was the same - will Dadonov be a good player here, if he comes over?  We don't know yet.  Will Shipachayov be good?  I don't know.  I think he'll be pretty good, a 'top 6' forward.  Will he put up a point and a half a game like he did in the KHL last season?  No, of course not.   Quite simply, you have to engage in a massive amount of cognitive dissonance to believe that Kovalchuk is one of the top goal scorers in the world still.  He's good, don't get me wrong.  He is just nowhere close to the elite goal scorer he was thought to be when he left (which he also wasn't, but that's another discussion).

Quick question---Is the KHL considered the 2nd best?  For some reason I heard the AHL was?  And would you know what the dropoff is between a league like the KHL and some of the European leagues in comparison to something over here.  For example, the SEL =NCAA in terms of talent, or the KHL is the equivalent to the best AAA league in baseball.  Just curious if you might have some insight.  I'm curious as to when players come over from those places, what those leagues compare to. 

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8 hours ago, Triumph said:

I don't care how he did in 2013.  There've been 4 years since then.  Fine, add those numbers to what I said - they still stink for a guy who was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  When Kovalchuk came into the league to the year before he was traded to the Devils, he scored the most goals in the NHL over that time.  He was one of the best goal scorers in the world.  Now he's not even the best goal scorer in the 2nd best league in the world.  There are guys with more goals and more goals per game than him in the 2nd best league in the world, a league where many of the top players were guys who couldn't even make the NHL full-time.

My entire argument is based on everyone who's played in both the KHL and NHL.  Nigel Dawes and Stephane Da Costa were 3rd line players here and are star players there.  Dadonov was the same - will Dadonov be a good player here, if he comes over?  We don't know yet.  Will Shipachayov be good?  I don't know.  I think he'll be pretty good, a 'top 6' forward.  Will he put up a point and a half a game like he did in the KHL last season?  No, of course not.   Quite simply, you have to engage in a massive amount of cognitive dissonance to believe that Kovalchuk is one of the top goal scorers in the world still.  He's good, don't get me wrong.  He is just nowhere close to the elite goal scorer he was thought to be when he left (which he also wasn't, but that's another discussion).

Well then your entire argument is garbage, because Kovalchuk's numbers have nothing to do with  those players. His KHL numbers haven't declined since we knew what kind of player he was, leading anyone to assume his ability hasn't declined. No sh!t he was less of a goal scorer here, his entire game changed after coming here. He played for Atlanta who was always terrible, of course he had to shoulder more of the load. That also leads to why you can't compare his numbers there to radulov's, when radulov played on a much worse team. I imagine he picked up a fair amount of the offensive slack. Remember when Kovalchuk would pick up the puck in his own slot and skate through 5 guys trying to go coast to coast when he first got here? He doesn't play that way anymore, and became a more effective player despite scoring a little less.

But, again, the only evidence you use to suggest he's significantly worse than he was in 2013 when he left is meaningless comparisons to other khlers and his age. But I can point to the fact that his production since going there hasn't declined, so it's safer to guess he's of the same caliber he was in 2013. Bottom line, it's ridiculous to think a 2nd round pick is good enough return for his rights.

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24 minutes ago, thecoffeecake said:

Well then your entire argument is garbage, because Kovalchuk's numbers have nothing to do with  those players. His KHL numbers haven't declined since we knew what kind of player he was, leading anyone to assume his ability hasn't declined. No sh!t he was less of a goal scorer here, his entire game changed after coming here. He played for Atlanta who was always terrible, of course he had to shoulder more of the load. That also leads to why you can't compare his numbers there to radulov's, when radulov played on a much worse team. I imagine he picked up a fair amount of the offensive slack. Remember when Kovalchuk would pick up the puck in his own slot and skate through 5 guys trying to go coast to coast when he first got here? He doesn't play that way anymore, and became a more effective player despite scoring a little less.

But, again, the only evidence you use to suggest he's significantly worse than he was in 2013 when he left is meaningless comparisons to other khlers and his age. But I can point to the fact that his production since going there hasn't declined, so it's safer to guess he's of the same caliber he was in 2013. Bottom line, it's ridiculous to think a 2nd round pick is good enough return for his rights.

Now great players do worse on great teams.  This is a rich argument for sure.  I'm hoping Kovalchuk does come back so you see, but it's entirely possible that you'll just come up with a million excuses.  He ages, and so does everyone else.

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3 hours ago, Triumph said:

Now great players do worse on great teams.  This is a rich argument for sure.  I'm hoping Kovalchuk does come back so you see, but it's entirely possible that you'll just come up with a million excuses.  He ages, and so does everyone else.

Yea, his decline is coming, but it hasn't happened yet. He hasn't declined in production since he left, I don't get what's debatable about that.

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2 hours ago, Daniel said:

Now here's a crazy idea... Kovy for Brady Skjei.

Can't imagine them being stupid enough to do that. 

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17 minutes ago, Devils Pride 26 said:

Can't imagine them being stupid enough to do that. 

The fact that they appear to be limiting his ice time in the playoffs leads me to believe they might be.

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Now here's a crazy idea... Kovy for Brady Skjei.

That's not crazy- it's batsh!t insane lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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The fact that they appear to be limiting his ice time in the playoffs leads me to believe they might be.

Vigneault is a moron for that. They shouldn't be limiting his ice time. I hope they continue to though.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Daniel said:

Now here's a crazy idea... Kovy for Brady Skjei.

It would annoy me to have a guy who pronounces "Skjei" "Shea". 

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21 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:


That's not crazy- it's batsh!t insane lol.


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Guess not as crazy as my other idea of Zacha for Noah Hannifin.

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Zacha for McDavid

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