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In Russia NHL returns you. Kovalchuk staying in KHL.


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of course there will be some decline with Kovy.. but i'd take a sniper on this team on s/t deal

either that or we trade his rights... Kovy saying that he might want to return to the NHL is only a good thing for this team

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35 minutes ago, thecoffeecake said:

From Atlanta to Jersey, yea, he's declined production wise, but again, his style of play changed. From Jersey to Russia, and since he left, his numbers haven't begun to decline. You're not going to get 2004 Kovy, but the 2013 Kovy that the NHL is familiar with is still around.

Again, you haven't seen the guy play, so how would you have any idea what his raw ability still is? You wouldn't, is the answer.

I don't have to see a player who goes from being the world's best goal scorer to being unable to be the best scorer in the 2nd best league in the world to know that he has declined.

2013 Kovalchuk wasn't very good in the NHL.

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2 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

We have ONE forward that I know is better than current Kovy. Just one. Based on that, I'm willing to give the dude a look. 

No one's saying Kovalchuk isn't still good, but the reason I don't want Kovalchuk is the same reason I wouldn't want the Devils to sign Jagr, even though I think Jagr is still a top-line player.  It just doesn't make sense for NJ to do so with where they are in this rebuild,  And the choice isn't between having Kovalchuk and not having him, it's theoretically between having him, and having an asset for having traded him.

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18 minutes ago, Triumph said:

No one's saying Kovalchuk isn't still good, but the reason I don't want Kovalchuk is the same reason I wouldn't want the Devils to sign Jagr, even though I think Jagr is still a top-line player.  It just doesn't make sense for NJ to do so with where they are in this rebuild,  And the choice isn't between having Kovalchuk and not having him, it's theoretically between having him, and having an asset for having traded him.

Plenty of people in this thread have said he isn't still good, actually. Maybe YOU aren't saying it...

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I can't get too into this Kovalchuk thing. I see him as a potential asset, not much more. How good is he now? Of course he was a high end exciting player when he was here but I was just never his biggest fan. He was never an elite skater and he is 34 now. I have no doubt he could still score goals and help the pp. If he comes back he comes back, I don't think he will anyway.

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11 minutes ago, Antiquated Colorado Rockie said:

I can't get too into this Kovalchuk thing. I see him as a potential asset, not much more. How good is he now? Of course he was a high end exciting player when he was here but I was just never his biggest fan. He was never an elite skater and he is 34 now. I have no doubt he could still score goals and help the pp. If he comes back he comes back, I don't think he will anyway.

I have the feeling he has zero interest in returning to NJ. He'll end up on the Rangers, the only question is whether we'll make a deal with the enemy or if he'll sit out a year. 

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3 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I have the feeling he has zero interest in returning to NJ. He'll end up on the Rangers, the only question is whether we'll make a deal with the enemy or if he'll sit out a year. 

I have the same feeling but he is ether sitting out a year or playing with a non rival

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Just now, fsu1852 said:

I have the same feeling but he is ether sitting out a year or playing with a non rival

He's got all the control because he could easily just go back to the K and make a ton of money. He's only coming back to a situation that he wants. And he said he wants New York. And doesn't he still have that enormous house he bought in NJ? 

What does that tell you? I guarantee he's not talking Islanders. 

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8 hours ago, Martyisth3b3st said:

He has all the control? Nah bro. If he wants to come back to the NHL, he's 100% in the hands of Ray Shero

Right. But as I said, he doesn't  have to if he doesn't want to. He can go back to the KHL, or say "f you" and sit out a year and sign wherever he wants. Shero has no control over two of the three possible scenarios, while Kovy has control of all of them. 

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15 hours ago, Triumph said:

I don't have to see a player who goes from being the world's best goal scorer to being unable to be the best scorer in the 2nd best league in the world to know that he has declined.

2013 Kovalchuk wasn't very good in the NHL.

I think you're setting an unreasonable standard for his production, and also saying that there's essentially no room or possibility for anyone to have any type of falloff.  Going from being the best scorer in the #1 league in the world to not quite the second best scorer in the #2 league in the world isn't all that shocking or crazy.  You do understand that him being the best scorer in the #1 league in the world means he was basically atop the mountain, right?  Not everyone stays there forever.  

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Re:  this sudden "Kovy was the world's #1 scorer" theme...how can anyone say that when Ovechkin has scored 558 goals in the best league in the world?  Ovechkin has been the world's best pure scorer pretty much since the very beginning of his NHL career...269 goals in his first five seasons alone.  49.7 goals per 82 GP in Dead Puck.  Kovy was definitely a terrific goal scorer in his prime, but not the best in the NHL, let alone the world. 

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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16 hours ago, Triumph said:

I don't have to see a player who goes from being the world's best goal scorer to being unable to be the best scorer in the 2nd best league in the world to know that he has declined.

2013 Kovalchuk wasn't very good in the NHL.

2013 Kovalchuk would get a hell of a lot more than a 2nd round pick as a return, which is the entire point I'm making.

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32 minutes ago, SMantzas said:

2013 Kovalchuk had negative value because of his contract.

 

A contract is only a negative value if it prevents you from doing something you otherwise could and would relative to how good the player is.  That wasn't the case in 2013, so how much he was paid then is irrelevant.   

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2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

A contract is only a negative value if it prevents you from doing something you otherwise could and would relative to how good the player is.  That wasn't the case in 2013, so how much he was paid then is irrelevant.   

I dont think this is true. 

A). I'd wager a good portion of the league couldn't absorb the 11 million or whatever he was making in his highest earning years. You hear about "internal budgets" from teams like Anaheim, Arizona, Dallas, etc. 

B. Then you have teams who are up against the cap like the Blackhawks, Penguins and Caps.

C. Then you have division rivals where Lou would have never considered trading him to like Philly and NYR

D. The cap recapture penalties would have been atrocious if Kovalchuk retired after, say, this year. Something like 4 million on the books for 7 more years in DEAD space. 

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1 minute ago, SMantzas said:

I dont think this is true. 

A). I'd wager a good portion of the league couldn't absorb the 11 million or whatever he was making in his highest earning years. You hear about "internal budgets" from teams like Anaheim, Arizona, Dallas, etc. 

B. Then you have teams who are up against the cap like the Blackhawks, Penguins and Caps.

C. Then you have division rivals where Lou would have never considered trading him to like Philly and NYR

D. The cap recapture penalties would have been atrocious if Kovalchuk retired after, say, this year. Something like 4 million on the books for 7 more years in DEAD space. 

I missed what you were responding to, re what his trade value would have been in 2013.  So yeah, the sheer length of the contract and the recapture penalty that a team would have had to absorb had they traded for him in 2013 made it prohibitive to trade for him no matter how much salary the Devils would have retained.  He'd basically have to be McDavid or Crosby for someone to be willing to take that deal.  While Weber had a similar deal and obviously yielded a great return that had a lot to do with: (1) Montreal being stupid; (2) Subban himself having a huge cap hit albeit on a post-lockout deal; and (3) Montreal being in the clear re cap recapture, which is something Nashville may have to deal with down the road.

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1 hour ago, thecoffeecake said:

2013 Kovalchuk would get a hell of a lot more than a 2nd round pick as a return, which is the entire point I'm making.

No he wouldn't.  He was signed to a huge contract.  Even if you ignore the cap recapture that would've come with that deal, he was untradeable with 12 years left on his contract.  

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29 minutes ago, Triumph said:

No he wouldn't.  He was signed to a huge contract.  Even if you ignore the cap recapture that would've come with that deal, he was untradeable with 12 years left on his contract.  

Maybe he's suggesting that if Kovy could put up a 2013 season in 2017-18, that would make him worth more than a second-round pick this year?  But yeah, that contract was very prohibitive. 

2013 Kovy had an odd season...lots of minutes (about the same per game as 2011-12), but most of his numbers were down (shots per game, shooting%), and his goal breakdown was very un-Kovy-like...5 ES goals, 2 PP goals, and 4 SH in 37 GP...he had scored just 3 SH goals for his entire career prior to the 2013 season. 

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I may have missed this being posted already, but does anyone know when Shero is supposed to reach out to Kovy? Didn't know if that happened late last week or sometime this week.   It'll be interesting to see how that goes and I'm just tired of playing the speculation game, and that'll probably be the next development and when we will know more about whether or not he actually has intentions of coming back.

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3 hours ago, Triumph said:

No he wouldn't.  He was signed to a huge contract.  Even if you ignore the cap recapture that would've come with that deal, he was untradeable with 12 years left on his contract.  

Holy sh!t that's so far from the point my head is spinning.

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14 minutes ago, thecoffeecake said:

Holy sh!t that's so far from the point my head is spinning.

Well good job clarifying in this post.  Your point was not at all clear because 2013 Kovalchuk was under NHL contract, and you should've clarified that you meant that 2013 Kovalchuk in this unusual situation would be worth more than a 2nd round pick.  I'm about to blow your mind:  I agree with that.  The trouble with your point is that it isn't 2013, it's 2017, and the player in question has been out of the NHL for 4 years now with less than spectacular results.

Note that I don't think a 2nd round pick is the upper bound on his value - I could see trades that are a 2nd round pick and some salary dump, or a B-grade prospect, or a 3rd round pick, or maybe some sort of conditional pick situation where the Devils get a 1st in certain scenarios.  But the Devils are very limited with what they can bring back for this guy given the uncertainty involved.

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5 hours ago, Triumph said:

No he wouldn't.  He was signed to a huge contract.  Even if you ignore the cap recapture that would've come with that deal, he was untradeable with 12 years left on his contract.  

But I think Kovalchuk 2013, based on his skill but without the contract, would. Now, he doesn't have the contract but he's 4 years older. The correct equation is whether: 

2013 Kovy + 4 years of depreciation - 12 year contract = a second round pick. 

Nobody will know the answer until he faces some NHL competition, unfortunately. 

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1 hour ago, Triumph said:

Well good job clarifying in this post.  Your point was not at all clear because 2013 Kovalchuk was under NHL contract, and you should've clarified that you meant that 2013 Kovalchuk in this unusual situation would be worth more than a 2nd round pick.  I'm about to blow your mind:  I agree with that.  The trouble with your point is that it isn't 2013, it's 2017, and the player in question has been out of the NHL for 4 years now with less than spectacular results.

Note that I don't think a 2nd round pick is the upper bound on his value - I could see trades that are a 2nd round pick and some salary dump, or a B-grade prospect, or a 3rd round pick, or maybe some sort of conditional pick situation where the Devils get a 1st in certain scenarios.  But the Devils are very limited with what they can bring back for this guy given the uncertainty involved.

Here's the thing though. His numbers haven't declined since 2013. You have no evidence to suggest he's declined any more than marginally since then.

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5 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Maybe he's suggesting that if Kovy could put up a 2013 season in 2017-18, that would make him worth more than a second-round pick this year?  But yeah, that contract was very prohibitive. 

2013 Kovy had an odd season...lots of minutes (about the same per game as 2011-12), but most of his numbers were down (shots per game, shooting%), and his goal breakdown was very un-Kovy-like...5 ES goals, 2 PP goals, and 4 SH in 37 GP...he had scored just 3 SH goals for his entire career prior to the 2013 season. 

He was absolutely electric on the PK early in the season. Part of that is what pissed me off so much about him leaving. Felt like a proud parent watching him buy into the kill and counter attack that year. Evolution of a player was great, for someone many said could never happen; killing penalties. It'd be like Ovi transistioning to kill penalties next year. A real wtf. 

 

Getting off topic so what the hell, but my favorite Kovy moment was the forecheck in game 5 at the Garden. Playing with Carter and Gionta it turns out to be KOVALCHUK hustling and winning a board battle throwing the puck in front. Another proud parent moment. 

Damn guy is like the ex-girlfriend you were crazy for and still think about time to time who absolutely gutted you. Despite it, you look back and still can smile at the memories. It takes you a long time to see,  but eventually you both work out for the better for it. 

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