2017 UFA Thread

[Matteau#32]

2 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

I supported you on your Klein argument, but did you actually just compare Jacob Josefson to Wayne Gretzky? I bet you could find a 5 game run in Gretzky's career where he scored more goals than JJ has in his entire career. 

Even the others, HOF, HOF, Howdy Doody looking MFer with a soft skull. No comparison. 

Haha, no.  Did not mean to imply he was at that level, just the go to guys I use whenever the marriage thing comes up.  Obviously, the before and after need to be graded on an individual bell curve for each player.  Yes, married Gretzky is still better than single Josefson.  But single gretzky better than married gretzky.  Single josefson, better than married josefson.

[mfitz804]

2 minutes ago, Matteau#32 said:

Haha, no.  Did not mean to imply he was at that level, just the go to guys I use whenever the marriage thing comes up.  Obviously, the before and after need to be graded on an individual bell curve for each player.  Yes, married Gretzky is still better than single Josefson.  But single gretzky better than married gretzky.  Single josefson, better than married josefson.

He'll be in the AHL or Europe by the end of the season if that's true. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 hour ago, Martyisth3b3st said:

IF lundqvist turns into pre-2015 form and IF Vesey takes a big step forward, I see the Rangers as a 5-7 seed. They were no doubt on the cusp of something when lundqvist was in his prime and they were full of prime-or-younger Stepans, Kreider's, and Nash's. But their window opened and closed as it seemingly always will -- without a cup.

Don't see them going as crazy offensively as they did to start last season either...they scored a whopping (for this era) 81 goals through 20 games last season (allowed 47)...they had a goal differential of just +1 (not adjusted for SO phantom goals) from Game 21 though the end of the season.  Kind of amazing that a team that gets off to such a flying start offensively doesn't even have a player that finishes with 60 points.     

[NJDevils1214]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

As much as I hate the Rangers, if I thought they were on the cusp of something big, I could be partial and admit it.  But Shattenkirk is really minimizing Lundqvist's age and possible (soon to be inevitable) decline...Lundqvist has 742 career regular season games under his belt, along with 128 playoff games...over his last six seasons, he's averaged a tick over 71 GP per season.  And he's getting paid handsomely over the next four seasons, which makes it a lot harder to bail on him if he's struggling; also, if he gets hurt or slumps badly enough, there's no Talbot or Raanta to turn to anymore...it's now Pavalec...he of the 39 starts and .901 save% the past two years.  Raanta was at .921 as a Ranger (44 starts), and Talbot .931 (53 starts over the prior 2 seasons).  Ranger fans got VERY spoiled by the level of play from their backups...they got, on average, about 24 starts of mostly stellar play from those two...they went 60-29-9 in their games.  No one can tell me that their goaltending won't see a serious downgrade from the previous four seasons. 

Maybe Lundqvist can somehow buck the odds and come close to what he was at his peak, but nothing really suggests that the Rangers should count on that.  They should continue to be a playoff team for the foreseeable future, but it's hard to see them doing much more than getting to the second round now.  They're kind of on the other side of the mountain now...just feels like they had their shot to win their Cup and simply couldn't do it. 

There's nothing wrong with being reasonable and realistic. So many fans aren't though. I agree with you. I was worried about NYR's chances of winning a cup 5-3 years ago. I'm not nearly as worried as I was then.

[titans04]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:41 PM, mfitz804 said:

The bad news? He's gonna come close but he's still never going to score. 

Fact.

['7']

2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

As much as I hate the Rangers, if I thought they were on the cusp of something big, I could be partial and admit it.  But Shattenkirk is really minimizing Lundqvist's age and possible (soon to be inevitable) decline...Lundqvist has 742 career regular season games under his belt, along with 128 playoff games...over his last six seasons, he's averaged a tick over 71 GP per season.  And he's getting paid handsomely over the next four seasons, which makes it a lot harder to bail on him if he's struggling; also, if he gets hurt or slumps badly enough, there's no Talbot or Raanta to turn to anymore...it's now Pavalec...he of the 39 starts and .901 save% the past two years.  Raanta was at .921 as a Ranger (44 starts), and Talbot .931 (53 starts over the prior 2 seasons).  Ranger fans got VERY spoiled by the level of play from their backups...they got, on average, about 24 starts of mostly stellar play from those two...they went 60-29-9 in their games.  No one can tell me that their goaltending won't see a serious downgrade from the previous four seasons. 

Maybe Lundqvist can somehow buck the odds and come close to what he was at his peak, but nothing really suggests that the Rangers should count on that.  They should continue to be a playoff team for the foreseeable future, but it's hard to see them doing much more than getting to the second round now.  They're kind of on the other side of the mountain now...just feels like they had their shot to win their Cup and simply couldn't do it. 

I was worried after seeing how well he played vs Montreal. After such a horrendous regular season it looked like he flipped a switch. However vs. Ottawa he reverted back to his declining regular season self.

Their year was 2014, and they played pretty much the hockey version of the Mets/Royals Word Series. I have to be bluntly honest, the Rangers were extremely unlucky against the Kings.

Even 2012 if they lucked past us that Kings team would've massacred them.

Luring in entitled college brats who get to pick where they play for like Hayes and Vesey has allowed them to extend this stretch of good teams they've had, as well as out of nowhere season by guys like Grabner

Edited July 19, 2017 by '7'

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Just now, '7' said:

I was worried after seeing how well he played vs Montreal. After such a horrendous regular season it looked like he flipped a switch. However vs. Ottawa he reverted back to his declining regular season self.

Their year was 2014, and they played pretty much the hockey version of the Mets/Royals Word Series. I have to be bluntly honest, the Rangers were extremely unlucky against the Kings.

Even 2012 if they lucked past us that Kings team would've massacred them.

Luring in entitled college brats who get to pick where they play for like Hayes and Vesey has allowed them to extend this stretch of good teams they've had

2014 Rangers didn't have to contend with 2012 Quick.  Guy was a wall that year:  .929 save% regular season, .946 save% playoff (including .947 in the SCF).  In 2014, he was .915 regular season, .911 playoff...he did save his best for last though, putting up a .932 save% in the SCF...he'd actually been pretty mediocre up in the three seven-game series prior to the SCF (just .906 through those three rounds).  That 2012 season was such an outlier for him...he's been pretty good for much of his career, but that really was an All-World kind of season for him. 

[DevsMan84]

23 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

2014 Rangers didn't have to contend with 2012 Quick.  Guy was a wall that year:  .929 save% regular season, .946 save% playoff (including .947 in the SCF).  In 2014, he was .915 regular season, .911 playoff...he did save his best for last though, putting up a .932 save% in the SCF...he'd actually been pretty mediocre up in the three seven-game series prior to the SCF (just .906 through those three rounds).  That 2012 season was such an outlier for him...he's been pretty good for much of his career, but that really was an All-World kind of season for him. 

Don't tell Rangers fans that.  They are utterly convinced they faced a better Kings team in 2014 than what we faced in 2012.

[Marshall]

5 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Don't tell Rangers fans that.  They are utterly convinced they faced a better Kings team in 2014 than what we faced in 2012.

The team that played 3 Game 7's to reach the SCF vs the team that went 12-2 in the West? Jeez...

[Chuck the Duck]

20 minutes ago, Marshall said:

The team that played 3 Game 7's to reach the SCF vs the team that went 12-2 in the West? Jeez...

And weren't the Kings down 0-3 in their first series against SJ that playoffs?  That 2014 team was lucky to get out of the first round, and weren't nearly as dominant in any series as they were during their run in 2012. 

The crazy thing is the Devils came a crossbar from Kovy at the end of regulation in Game 2 and/or a missed wide-open net from Fayne in Game 1 from at least playing at home in Game 7 vs. the Kings in 2012.  But Quick was unreal in those playoffs and that series.  He deserved the Conn Smythe and was the biggest reason that they beat us that year. 

[NJDevils1214]

3 hours ago, Chuck the Duck said:

And weren't the Kings down 0-3 in their first series against SJ that playoffs?  That 2014 team was lucky to get out of the first round, and weren't nearly as dominant in any series as they were during their run in 2012. 

The crazy thing is the Devils came a crossbar from Kovy at the end of regulation in Game 2 and/or a missed wide-open net from Fayne in Game 1 from at least playing at home in Game 7 vs. the Kings in 2012.  But Quick was unreal in those playoffs and that series.  He deserved the Conn Smythe and was the biggest reason that they beat us that year. 

Those two losses were heartbreaking.

[Antiquated Colorado Rockie]

6 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

As much as I hate the Rangers, if I thought they were on the cusp of something big, I could be partial and admit it.  But Shattenkirk is really minimizing Lundqvist's age and possible (soon to be inevitable) decline...Lundqvist has 742 career regular season games under his belt, along with 128 playoff games...over his last six seasons, he's averaged a tick over 71 GP per season.  And he's getting paid handsomely over the next four seasons, which makes it a lot harder to bail on him if he's struggling; also, if he gets hurt or slumps badly enough, there's no Talbot or Raanta to turn to anymore...it's now Pavalec...he of the 39 starts and .901 save% the past two years.  Raanta was at .921 as a Ranger (44 starts), and Talbot .931 (53 starts over the prior 2 seasons).  Ranger fans got VERY spoiled by the level of play from their backups...they got, on average, about 24 starts of mostly stellar play from those two...they went 60-29-9 in their games.  No one can tell me that their goaltending won't see a serious downgrade from the previous four seasons. 

Maybe Lundqvist can somehow buck the odds and come close to what he was at his peak, but nothing really suggests that the Rangers should count on that.  They should continue to be a playoff team for the foreseeable future, but it's hard to see them doing much more than getting to the second round now.  They're kind of on the other side of the mountain now...just feels like they had their shot to win their Cup and simply couldn't do it. 

some good points. That is just talk from Shattenkirk, he went there because that was his childhood dream not because their future is so bright. They are looking okay but nobody thinks they are 'on the cusp of something big'.

Mind you the Rangers probably think two cups within a 54 year span is something big.  

[Matteau#32]

I did not think they were beating the Kings in 2012 had they beaten the Devils.  The Kings were a machine that year.  People like to downplay that team because they were an 8th seed.  They were barely 500 around Xmas, then Sutter took over and they were something like 26-10 with a few SO/OT losses as well.  As far as the Rangers now, barring a ridiculous turn around, their window has been slammed shut.  Then again, if in the summer of 2015 you said the Pens would win the next 2 Cups, people would have laughed at you.  Their change started last March.  I remember my Pens fan brother saying he hoped if they get into the play-offs they get in as a cross-over WC as he didn't think they stood a chance against anyone in the Metro.  The kids they brought up from the AHL turned out to be real good and Crosby and Malkin got the support they needed.  Don't see anyone like that in the Rangers system yet.  Think the Rangers just have to wait it out until Shestyrkin's contract is up in the KHL in 2 years as I think he is the heir apparent to Lundqvist.  The question with them will be if they ever get the skaters needed to win it all.  Right now, they don't have them, imo.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Matteau#32

[Matteau#32]

15 hours ago, Chuck the Duck said:

And weren't the Kings down 0-3 in their first series against SJ that playoffs?  That 2014 team was lucky to get out of the first round, and weren't nearly as dominant in any series as they were during their run in 2012. 

The crazy thing is the Devils came a crossbar from Kovy at the end of regulation in Game 2 and/or a missed wide-open net from Fayne in Game 1 from at least playing at home in Game 7 vs. the Kings in 2012.  But Quick was unreal in those playoffs and that series.  He deserved the Conn Smythe and was the biggest reason that they beat us that year. 

They were, but then blew them out in the next 4.  Were also up 3-1 to Chicago, blew games 5 and 6 and were down 2-0 or 3-0 early in game 7 before rallying and winning in OT on what I thought was a weak goal.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

43 minutes ago, Matteau#32 said:

I did not think they were beating the Kings in 2012 had they beaten the Devils.  The Kings were a machine that year.  People like to downplay that team because they were an 8th seed.  They were barely 500 around Xmas, then Sutter took over and they were something like 26-10 with a few SO/OT losses as well.  As far as the Rangers now, barring a ridiculous turn around, their window has been slammed shut.  Then again, if in the summer of 2015 you said the Pens would win the next 2 Cups, people would have laughed at you.  Their change started last March.  I remember my Pens fan brother saying he hoped if they get into the play-offs they get in as a cross-over WC as he didn't think they stood a chance against anyone in the Metro.  The kids they brought up from the AHL turned out to be real good and Crosby and Malkin got the support they needed.  Don't see anyone like that in the Rangers system yet.  Think the Rangers just have to wait it out until Shestyrkin's contract is up in the KHL in 2 years as I think he is the heir apparent to Lundqvist.  The question with them will be if they ever get the skaters needed to win it all.  Right now, they don't have them, imo.

Don't forget the Jack Johnson (and a conditional 1st) for Jeff Carter trade.  That made the Kings a better team than they'd been for much of that season.  They were clearly better than that 8th seed would lead people to believe. 

As for the Penguins...doesn't hurt when you can add Phil Kessel, who both NEVER EVER misses a game (unlike Crosby and Malkin), and somehow INCREASES his offensive production for you come playoff time.  45 points in 49 playoff games in two seasons with Pitt.  He's been nothing but reliable and productive for the Penguins.  

[CommonDreads]

1 minute ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

As for the Penguins...doesn't hurt when you can add Phil Kessel, who both NEVER EVER misses a game (unlike Crosby and Malkin), and somehow INCREASES his offensive production for you come playoff time.  45 points in 49 playoff games in two seasons with Pitt.  He's been nothing but reliable and productive for the Penguins.  

Meh but let's be real, the guy is uncoachable! /TorontoMedia

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Just now, CommonDreads said:

Meh but let's be real, the guy is uncoachable! /TorontoMedia

You wonder if going to a team where he was going to be more of a very good complementary piece helped him.  He very well could've been a PITA in Toronto, but simply grew up and is in a place that's perfect for him. 

[NJDevils1214]

26 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

You wonder if going to a team where he was going to be more of a very good complementary piece helped him.  He very well could've been a PITA in Toronto, but simply grew up and is in a place that's perfect for him. 

A lot of athletes play better when they don't have to be "the guy". Kessel went from being the guy who had to answer for everything in Toronto to just being a part of a good team in Pittsburgh. A lot of the pressure came off. You can tell by his little tantrums and complaining on the bench he's still hasn't matured. I remember watching a special on him and Zach Bogosian(sp) talked about how his ultra competitiveness led him to throw fits after losing in ping pong or something. 

[Matteau#32]

1 hour ago, NJDevils1214 said:

A lot of athletes play better when they don't have to be "the guy". Kessel went from being the guy who had to answer for everything in Toronto to just being a part of a good team in Pittsburgh. A lot of the pressure came off. You can tell by his little tantrums and complaining on the bench he's still hasn't matured. I remember watching a special on him and Zach Bogosian(sp) talked about how his ultra competitiveness led him to throw fits after losing in ping pong or something. 

I think that is exactly it.  Another guy like that imo is Nash.  If he went to a team like Washington or Anaheim where he can play 2nd/3rd/4th fiddle, he would be MUCH more effective.  Even if his production dropped a little due to decreased ice time or decreased PP time, it wouldn't be that drastic when you look at the numbers at the end of the season.  For the adv stats guys his corsi per 60 and his goals per 60 or whatever they call it now, would likely increase.

[LittleBallofHate]

Since it's pretty quiet, anyone have any thoughts about pursuing Will Butcher after Aug 15?  Probably a tough sell but it sounds like he's not going to sign with Colorado - if this bit is true than I understand why (from the Denver Post): 

Near the end of Butcher’s junior season a year ago, the Avalanche told Butcher’s “family adviser” the team was not interested in signing the 5-foot-10, 190-pound defenseman at any point. But that attitude toward Butcher was believed to have emanated from then-coach Patrick Roy, who was also the Avs’ vice president.

Snippet of info from a different article: 

Butcher is a left-handed, young, fast, puck-moving, offensive defenseman.

Aside from winning the Hobey Baker this past season, he was also awarded the Best Offensive Defenseman award and the Player of the Year award. Butcher was awarded the captaincy before the ‘16-’17 season after being an assistant captain for his first 3 years.

Previously, he played for the US National Team, the Dubuque Fighting Saints of the USHL, and the Madison Capitals for both the U16 league, and the U18 league. And like he did at Denver, he put up very solid numbers.

[sokar]

40 minutes ago, LittleBallofHate said:

Since it's pretty quiet, anyone have any thoughts about pursuing Will Butcher after Aug 15?  Probably a tough sell but it sounds like he's not going to sign with Colorado - if this bit is true than I understand why (from the Denver Post): 

Near the end of Butcher’s junior season a year ago, the Avalanche told Butcher’s “family adviser” the team was not interested in signing the 5-foot-10, 190-pound defenseman at any point. But that attitude toward Butcher was believed to have emanated from then-coach Patrick Roy, who was also the Avs’ vice president.

Snippet of info from a different article: 

Butcher is a left-handed, young, fast, puck-moving, offensive defenseman.

Aside from winning the Hobey Baker this past season, he was also awarded the Best Offensive Defenseman award and the Player of the Year award. Butcher was awarded the captaincy before the ‘16-’17 season after being an assistant captain for his first 3 years.

Previously, he played for the US National Team, the Dubuque Fighting Saints of the USHL, and the Madison Capitals for both the U16 league, and the U18 league. And like he did at Denver, he put up very solid numbers.

Would not be surprised if the Devils talk to him, with the lack of depth at D they could sell him on making the team opening night

[mfitz804]

We already have enough butchers on defense.

[CarpathianForest]

Garth Butcher is coming out of retirement?

[Antiquated Colorado Rockie]

40 minutes ago, CarpathianForest said:

Garth Butcher is coming out of retirement?

He might have a shot of cracking our d corps. 

[NJDfan1711]

So it's almost August, and we haven't made anymore moves on defense.  I think most people assumed there was another trade or signing coming, possibly involving Henrique, since, and I can't believe I'm gonna say this, it seems like we have an influx of forwards at the moment, but I'm not so sure that's gonna happen now. There's still time, but something tells me we're going to roll into training camp and pre-season with our D corp as-is.  I think with no buyers for Lovejoy, and the addition of Mueller, and the assumption that Schneider will play better this year, that Shero is banking on the chances that our perceived-improved forwards will be able to put up more goals this year than we let in.  

What's everyone else think?  Something else still to come?