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GDT : Bruins @ Devils - 7:00 PM - MSG+2, NESN


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1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I was there last night...this morning I feel like I haven't slept in a week.  At 3-3, I really did feel like the Devils were going to find a way to get it done...that we'd all be saying "Goddamn, two seriously WTF goals in that first period, but in the end at least the Devils found a way to get two points...let's just take 'em and call it a day."  Nothing against Palms at all (like I posted, I had on his white GW, and he's still my current fave Devil), but it's kind of miraculous that my Palms bobblehead made it to my daughter's hands intact...I really wanted to smash something after the game, and I'm sure that would have shattered quite nicely. 

Pretty much the only time I was any kind of positive at all last night was the first ten minutes of the third...but part of that was only due to running into some friends during the second intermission. I was miserable and angry the first two periods and distraught after Stafford’s nail in the coffin. Two own goals and another that might as well have been an own goal is the definition of finding a way to lose. But that’s what loser teams do.  Not that I was expecting to win last night’s game going in but my god it really felt like the typical ‘Here we go again’ moment I get from the Jets, Mets and now the Devils too. Three straight years and four out of six they have illusory hot starts only to die when the money was on the line and another season they just died in the shootout - again and again.  I’m sick and tired of this loser team finding ways to choke.

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37 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I'd take Lack 100 times out of 100 over KK after last night.  The first two were a combo of bad luck and rust.

I really don't want to see that sh!tbag KK's face ever again on this team after this season.  He sucks, the fans who think he is even a halfway capable goaltender are complete morons and his Twitter account should be used as an example by other teams going forward of how not to look like a complete idiot.

This might be my favorite post of yours ever lol

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22 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Nobody was saying that a week ago, all anyone on this board was talking about was how Palmieri can't finish at all. 

That said, he has the hot hand and I think he makes more sense with Hischier and Hall. Bratt and Hischier are too similar in my opinion, both very fast and very skilled, but neither is a pure shooter (at least not yet) like Palmieri. 

And, putting Bratt on the second line adds speed there. When we run a Hall-Hischier-Bratt line, basically all of our speed is on one line and then there's three lines of mediocre skating.

Except for Wood, whose speed is excellent if he ever figures out how to use it consistently instead on overstating the puck or crashing into the end boards or worse, the opponent's goalie for an interference penalty. He's starting to show some ability to do it (see his goal last night), but not with consistency (see his goal last night after coming out of the box for running the opponent's goalie). 

I feel like Palms has been getting goals we really no notice, as CR said above. To me, I equate it to that year Alex Rodriguez hit all those home runs for the Yankees, but they were when it didn't matter and had little to no impact on the game so no one realized it until you actually looked at his stats and went, wow me must really be productive. From score updates, I saw Palms got us one of the multiple equalizers so hey more power to him. But from games I've watched, the last goal I can remember Palms getting on even strength was the empty netter post ASB.

I 100% agree Kids and the Hall need to be split up, even if its just moving Bratt around. They have to get all lines rolling again.

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9 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

Pretty much the only time I was any kind of positive at all last night was the first ten minutes of the third...but part of that was only due to running into some friends during the second intermission. I was miserable and angry the first two periods and distraught after Stafford’s nail in the coffin. Two own goals and another that might as well have been an own goal is the definition of finding a way to lose. But that’s what loser teams do.  Not that I was expecting to win last night’s game going in but my god it really felt like the typical ‘Here we go again’ moment I get from the Jets, Mets and now the Devils too. Three straight years and four out of six they have illusory hot starts only to die when the money was on the line and another season they just died in the shootout - again and again.  I’m sick and tired of this loser team finding ways to choke.

I can't lump this team in with the previous teams.  For one, last year's team was CLEARLY an illusion...it was obvious that they weren't going to keep it up, and I said so at the time...the talent just wasn't there, and the metrics didn't really support that team continuing to build off the 9-3-3 start.  As for the previous year's team, that team felt like an overachiever that ran out of luck.  And we've been over some of the more recent rosters, in the seasons prior to this one...some of them were fvcking AWFUL. 

Even though Schneider was up and down this season, losing him has turned out to be an absolute killer, as KK is having a poor year and doesn't appear to be able to handle a starter's workload in emergencies.  After getting squashed in Columbus, the Devils did battle last night...to me, the true mark of a loser team would be to barely show up and be stuck wallowing in Saturday night's loss.  I don't see the 2017-18 team as some more-of-the-same loser team, I just don't.  I'm not sure how many teams would be able to handle a goaltending tandem of KK and Lack and not be hurt by it.  It doesn't get much more replacement level than that.        

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1 hour ago, DevsMan84 said:

I'd take Lack 100 times out of 100 over KK after last night.  The first two were a combo of bad luck and rust.

I really don't want to see that sh!tbag KK's face ever again on this team after this season.  He sucks, the fans who think he is even a halfway capable goaltender are complete morons and his Twitter account should be used as an example by other teams going forward of how not to look like a complete idiot.

Lou would be so disappointed.

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1 hour ago, lazer said:

jagr 

he was shooting pucks in off of zajac just to get zajac on the board lol

he was here past his prime but he was the most talented (forward) to wear a devils sweater ever

Jagr excluded. He's a mercenary who went whenever wherever he could get paid. Exclusion.

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8 hours ago, sundstrom said:

Why now?

because now is when they rip your heart out. 

All those other years - we knew they sucked and they were kind enough to follow through. You sat through it but you weren’t built up to be torn down. 

It’s the disappointment that is the worst and the feeing like you’re not doing anything to fix it. 

Saying we’d all sign up for this at the start of the season - well sure. Going into the season, I pegged them for 83 points - 36-35-11. And then they had the first 40 games. So after a while, you forget what you thought and reset expectations. 

And then the team tailspins and management doesn’t try to fix it. 

It sucks. 

This isn’t like ‘98 when I was disgusted with good teams not being able to get out of round 1 or 2009 game 7 which was the worst sports moment of my life (yes worse than ‘94 ECF as I wasn’t there).

The fact is, I cannot care about this team as much as I have anymore. I don’t know why tonight made that happen for me but it has. I’m actually sad by it. My wife and my girls saw it and can’t understand it. Why this essentially random loss was the one that basically ruined the devils for me. 

But it has. Yes I’ll watch. And I’ll still go games this year as I have tickets. But i just can’t care as much anymore because there’s enough disappointments in life and I won’t let these guys be one for me anymore. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if I get back to the level I’ve been at but it’s gonna take something to get me there and I can’t see it happening this year.

 

I know we talked about it a little last night but there's just not much to be done unless you want to mortgage part of the future. Lack made his first start last night. Sure, he hasn't been good the last little while, but he has more of a track record in this league than Kinkaid. You can't kill Shero for waiting on Lack while Kinkaid was getting some wins (albeit playing poorly). The fact of the matter is that Kinkaid is an NHL goalie, who has to be expected to make a save. You let guys work through stuff during the season, especially when your other option is Ken Appleby- you know, the dude who is rocking Kinkaid numbers in the AHL. Goalies just don't move during the year and who are you really going to get that has a better track record than KK, who up until this year had decent numbers for a backup? 

I get your frustration. There have been no less than ~10 times the since January started that I have wanted to throw my remote at my tv. It's disheartening because every single silly mistake ends up in the back of the neck because goaltending has been poor. Look at Boston last night- how many egregious turnovers did they have that Khudobin covered up for? It sucks because the team doesn't have the feeling that they suck. They are legitimately decent, which is crazy to say considering where they were last year. I am much more encouraged that they can make the playoffs this year than any other year in our drought, even with the recent slide. Every team has a flaw. I'm considering Pittsburgh and Washington gone. Philly (goaltending, defensive depth), Islanders (defense, goaltending), Hurricanes (goaltending, scoring), Rangers (defense), Columbus (special teams, offense). 

There is no denying that if they don't make the playoffs, it will be a massive punch in the ****. But it's easy to lose track that when they were winning, they were getting their teeth knocked in. No one wanted to talk about it because who the hell complains when you win, right? Now that the team is playing well, they can't get a save. Unless they really crater the next two months and finish ~NHL .500, this is a successful year no matter what. Nico and Butcher are legit. Bratt is going to be a good forward in this league. Hall has confirmed that he can carry an offense to the playoffs with league average goaltending. Zacha is looking like he can be a solution at the 2C spot. 

I would never tell someone how to spend his/her money but the timing of this is weird. It seems like a weird time to pull out after suffering so much since 2012. The fact that you care this much shows the team is close and I think you know that. The best players on this team this year have been: 26 (Hall), 19 (Hischier), 23 (Severson), 19 (Bratt), 20 (Zacha), 22 (Wood) and 27 (Palmieri). You have to assume Hischier, Bratt, Wood and Butcher still have some growth to their games. This is all a process and the team is well ahead of schedule. 

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48 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I can't lump this team in with the previous teams.  For one, last year's team was CLEARLY an illusion...it was obvious that they weren't going to keep it up, and I said so at the time...the talent just wasn't there, and the metrics didn't really support that team continuing to build off the 9-3-3 start.  As for the previous year's team, that team felt like an overachiever that ran out of luck.  And we've been over some of the more recent rosters, in the seasons prior to this one...some of them were fvcking AWFUL. 

Even though Schneider was up and down this season, losing him has turned out to be an absolute killer, as KK is having a poor year and doesn't appear to be able to handle a starter's workload in emergencies.  After getting squashed in Columbus, the Devils did battle last night...to me, the true mark of a loser team would be to barely show up and be stuck wallowing in Saturday night's loss.  I don't see the 2017-18 team as some more-of-the-same loser team, I just don't.  I'm not sure how many teams would be able to handle a goaltending tandem of KK and Lack and not be hurt by it.  It doesn't get much more replacement level than that.        

Saturday is part of my issue though. To no show like that is inexcusable given we were playing another bubble team. To me yesterday was almost deserved after they no showed such a critical game or other games against worse teams this year.

And every other team in the league seems to be fine with backup goalies, freaking Vegas has gone through five yet we somehow can’t find one guy to play at even a league average level. Sure there was bound to be regression with the kids, with guys like Boyle and Gibbons starting hot but can the ****ing vets this side of Hall pick it up now?!  Can this ****ing defense actually show a modicum of competence after three years with this staff? Can the freaking PP actually be competent with more skill players than they’ve had since 2012?

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1 minute ago, NJDevs4978 said:

Saturday is part of my issue though. To no show like that is inexcusable given we were playing another bubble team. To me yesterday was almost deserved after they no showed such a critical game or other games against worse teams this year.

And every other team in the league seems to be fine with backup goalies, freaking Vegas has gone through five yet we somehow can’t find one guy to play at even a league average level. Sure there was bound to be regression with the kids, with guys like Boyle and Gibbons starting hot but can the ****ing vets this side of Hall pick it up?! 

Who is playing worse than expected here?  Who has had a worse season than we would've thought?  Zajac and maybe Greene.  Should these players be expected to be good at their ages, 32 and 35 respectively?  The answer for me is no, they shouldn't.  Zajac's already had one miserable season in his career and this season is just laying bare how much of his offensive production in these past few seasons was likely due to linemates rather than his own ability.  He's probably getting unlucky with regard to assists but has been lucky with goals.  His days as a 'top six' forward are almost certainly over, and probably would've been over on a lot of other teams before this.  Greene, likewise, everyone looked at Lovejoy last year as the problem and indeed he was bad, but Greene himself usually escaped scrutiny.  He's had a nice career but certain plays that were once easy are looking hard and hard plays are impossible.  He's 35, and there's not a lot of guys around the league who still have prominent roles on their team at 35.  He's aging as we would expect him to.

The team's getting 50% of the shots, it's just that lately their goalie is saving 87% of the shots and the other goalie is saving 91%.  Just take this week, the Devils scored 9 goals in 4 games, not great but certainly not awful - you'd expect the Devils to come out of that with at least 2 points, and depending on how the goals were distributed, even as many as 6, but because of how the goaltending's gone, they got 0.

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And re:  Palms, the good news is that when he's on the ice, his production has been very consistent:

2015-16  82 GP, 30 G, 27 A, 13.5 shooting%

2016-17  80 GP, 26 G, 27 A, 13.5 shooting%

2017-18  36 GP, 13 G, 11 A, 12.5 shooting% (that would be 30 G and 25 A over an 82-game sched if he could keep that up)

Nice to know that you can basically pencil the guy in for 25-30 G and 25-30 A as long as he stays healthy. 

3 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

Saturday is part of my issue though. To no show like that is inexcusable given we were playing another bubble team. To me yesterday was almost deserved after they no showed such a critical game or other games against worse teams this year.

And every other team in the league seems to be fine with backup goalies, freaking Vegas has gone through five yet we somehow can’t find one guy to play at even a league average level. Sure there was bound to be regression with the kids, with guys like Boyle and Gibbons starting hot but can the ****ing vets this side of Hall pick it up?! 

Saturday absolutely sucked, but sh!t happens.  You're not going to get a top effort every time you expect it should happen...not saying it's not frustrating as hell when it happens, but it will on occasion...and when you've got bad goaltending and some kids getting worn out, that doesn't help.

Which vets?  Palms has to started to notch some points (8 in his last 7 GP).  Boyle was never going to keep up his earlier pace, and we knew it.  Zajac is what he is...maybe you get brief random offensive surges from him from time to time, but you definitely can't count on him for scoring.  Assuming you're talking about production, which vets can really be asked to step up?  I think if anything, you hope that Nico and Bratt can pick it up (they're probably the most capable), but I don't know if they have enough left in the tank this year to find a higher gear right now.  But Tri just touched on it...how many vets are really not performing up to snuff?  And we know what the goaltending situation sans Cory is...

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9 minutes ago, Triumph said:

 

Who is playing worse than expected here?  Who has had a worse season than we would've thought?  Zajac and maybe Greene.  Should these players be expected to be good at their ages, 32 and 35 respectively?  The answer for me is no, they shouldn't.  Zajac's already had one miserable season in his career and this season is just laying bare how much of his offensive production in these past few seasons was likely due to linemates rather than his own ability.  He's probably getting unlucky with regard to assists but has been lucky with goals.  His days as a 'top six' forward are almost certainly over, and probably would've been over on a lot of other teams before this.  Greene, likewise, everyone looked at Lovejoy last year as the problem and indeed he was bad, but Greene himself usually escaped scrutiny.  He's had a nice career but certain plays that were once easy are looking hard and hard plays are impossible.  He's 35, and there's not a lot of guys around the league who still have prominent roles on their team at 35.  He's aging as we would expect him to.

The team's getting 50% of the shots, it's just that lately their goalie is saving 87% of the shots and the other goalie is saving 91%.  Just take this week, the Devils scored 9 goals in 4 games, not great but certainly not awful - you'd expect the Devils to come out of that with at least 2 points, and depending on how the goals were distributed, even as many as 6, but because of how the goaltending's gone, they got 0.

you've hit the nail on the head - bad players are given prominent roles because of legacy and, to a lesser extent, lack of better options. they're the definition of anchors. John @ AATJ just did a write up on the improved defense since Vatanen got here. He touches on it a bit, but I don't think gives enough credence to just how bad Greene is and how it's taken a player like Sami to prop him up while Greene helped to destroy Santini.

That's part of the frustration - they can't make real steps forward while 9 and 16 are prominently featured and it's going to be years before that's changed (at least on greene's side - zajac at least has been pretty much turned into the 3C but still kills whatever line he's on).

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10 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

And re:  Palms, the good news is that when he's on the ice, his production has been very consistent:

2015-16  82 GP, 30 G, 27 A, 13.5 shooting%

2016-17  80 GP, 26 G, 27 A, 13.5 shooting%

2017-18  36 GP, 13 G, 11 A, 12.5 shooting% (that would be 30 G and 25 A over an 82-game sched if he could keep that up)

Nice to know that you can basically pencil the guy in for 25-30 G and 25-30 A as long as he stays healthy. 

Palms 5v5 goals are 5? He has PP and ENs (not discounting these) but you can see why some are confused with his production.

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2 minutes ago, sundstrom said:

you've hit the nail on the head - bad players are given prominent roles because of legacy and, to a lesser extent, lack of better options. they're the definition of anchors. John @ AATJ just did a write up on the improved defense since Vatanen got here. He touches on it a bit, but I don't think gives enough credence to just how bad Greene is and how it's taken a player like Sami to prop him up while Greene helped to destroy Santini.

That's part of the frustration - they can't make real steps forward while 9 and 16 are prominently featured and it's going to be years before that's changed (at least on greene's side - zajac at least has been pretty much turned into the 3C but still kills whatever line he's on).

Idk I kinda think 9 is pretty good :P

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1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

But tell us how you really feel, heh heh. 

re:  KK, as bad teams evolve and upgrade their personnel, some guys are destined to be left behind.  KK was a passable backup prior to this season, but unfortunately for him this was not the season to be as overall crappy as he's been.  I think Shero is going to try to upgrade that position in the offseason...I think he'd even consider it now, but like Tri alluded to, not always easy to do in-season. 

The days of the passable goalie of any kind are just over. There was a time when the Mike Dunhams, Dan Cloutiers, and Brian Bouchers could put up one sub .900 season after another and stay in the NHL. Nowadays many backups seem to consistently put up .910+. Save percentage has gone up league wide over the last twenty years and consistent sub .900 play has come to mean you're out of the NHL. That seems to be especially true as of the last few years. Obviously there's a lot of factors at play here and a study of what happens to goalies who put up sub .900 numbers would have to be done to really make any conclusions, but here are the season-by-season year-end number of goalies in the league who put up a sub. 900 save percentage and made it to 15 games played (since the year 2000):

# of goalies with a sub .900 save percentage (Min. 15 games played, LA = league average sv. %):

1999-00: 16     LA: .904

2000-01: 25     LA: .903

2001-02: 11     LA: .908

2002-03: 16     LA: .909

2003-04: 10     LA: .911

2005-06: 31     LA: .901

2006-07: 13     LA: .905

2007-08: 13     LA: .909

2008-09: 12     LA: .908

2009-10: 9       LA: .911

2010-11: 12     LA: .913

2011-12: 7       LA: .914

2012-13: 7       LA: .912

2013-14: 11     LA: .914

2014-15: 6       LA: .915

2015-16: 4       LA: .915

2016-17: 3       LA: .913

2017-18: 5       LA: .913 (both #'s as of 02/11/2018)

Edited by Neb00rs
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1 minute ago, sundstrom said:

you've hit the nail on the head - bad players are given prominent roles because of legacy and, to a lesser extent, lack of better options. they're the definition of anchors. John @ AATJ just did a write up on the improved defense since Vatanen got here. He touches on it a bit, but I don't think gives enough credence to just how bad Greene is and how it's taken a player like Sami to prop him up while Greene helped to destroy Santini.

That's part of the frustration - they can't make real steps forward while 9 and 16 are prominently featured and it's going to be years before that's changed (at least on greene's side - zajac at least has been pretty much turned into the 3C but still kills whatever line he's on).

Zajac has been taken off the power play in recent weeks and he's on pace to play the least minutes per game since the 2nd season of his career.  I don't think he 'kills a line'.  The Devils are shooting 6.4% with him on the ice.  That's sometimes how it goes.  I think he's been fine in the last few games in his present role - he's been at least treading water, I think.  

Santini was bad with everyone, not just Greene.  He spent 140 minutes away from Greene with left-shot D and was around 40% Corsi with them.  That's not acceptable.

For Greene to be featured less it really won't take a whole lot.  They just need Butcher to make some strides next season and get a guy to stick above Greene.  I don't think that's all that difficult.  It takes time for coaches and management to see certain things, but they're seeing them.  

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Neb00rs, all well and good, I agree with you, but KK wasn't a season-in season-out sub-.900 guy prior to this year.  He was at .915 three years ago and .916 last season.  In between he was at .904 and coming into this season was at .912 for his career, on bad teams to boot. 

But like I said, I think he's been bad enough this year that I wouldn't just hope he bounces back in the final year of his contract.  I look to upgrade. 

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2 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

I'd take Lack 100 times out of 100 over KK after last night.  The first two were a combo of bad luck and rust.

I really don't want to see that sh!tbag KK's face ever again on this team after this season.  He sucks, the fans who think he is even a halfway capable goaltender are complete morons and his Twitter account should be used as an example by other teams going forward of how not to look like a complete idiot.

Seriously dude, you don't usually have quite that much ferocity in your posts. 

Not that its not 100% accurate, mind you. 

I personally wouldn't mind keeping Lack around once Cory comes back and letting KK go hang out in Binghamton or whatever. 

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Just now, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Neb00rs, all well and good, I agree with you, but KK wasn't a season-in season-out sub-.900 guy prior to this year.  He was at .915 three years ago and .916 last season.  In between he was at .904 and coming into this season was at .912 for his career, on bad teams to boot. 

But like I said, I think he's been bad enough this year that I wouldn't just hope he bounces back in the final year of his contract.  I look to upgrade. 

I'm more asking the question myself than challenging you on anything: what happens to Keith Kinkaid? I'd imagine, given his relative success last year, if the Devils didn't continue with him (and they might), he'd end up in the league somewhere.

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2 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

I'm more asking the question myself than challenging you on anything: what happens to Keith Kinkaid? I'd imagine, given his relative success last year, if the Devils didn't continue with him (and they might), he'd end up in the league somewhere.

The tricky thing is that he still has a year left on his deal. I know the buyout isn't costly, but would they consider having him in Bingo?

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3 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

I'm more asking the question myself than challenging you on anything: what happens to Keith Kinkaid? I'd imagine, given his relative success last year, if the Devils didn't continue with him (and they might), he'd end up in the league somewhere.

Please let it be the Rangers.

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1 hour ago, Neb00rs said:

I'm more asking the question myself than challenging you on anything: what happens to Keith Kinkaid? I'd imagine, given his relative success last year, if the Devils didn't continue with him (and they might), he'd end up in the league somewhere.

He has enough of an overall track record that he probably gets a shot somewhere else if not here...especially with his contract being pretty cheap.  He might become one of those "fill out a bad roster" low-cost players who bounces around the league and occasionally has a surprising year here and there (but might also make an occasional trip to the AHL).  Bad teams that know that they're going to be bad need players too.  I can see that kind of a future for KK. 

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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46 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Seriously dude, you don't usually have quite that much ferocity in your posts. 

Not that its not 100% accurate, mind you. 

I personally wouldn't mind keeping Lack around once Cory comes back and letting KK go hang out in Binghamton or whatever. 

I swear if I ever come across one of his jerseys when I am at the Meigray warehouse I will make sure to fart on it.  That way they stink, just like how he is as a goalie.

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Not sure if this was mentioned here yet but:

Butcher got an assist too.

Doesn't count officially though because he missed time due to injury. 

So that's 21 points over the 14 game streak (9 goals, 12 assists) and he's 12 points off Kucherov while having played 5 less games.

Edited by Neb00rs
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