What’s your max offer for Tavares

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, Devilsfan118 said:

That almost guarantees we'll need to give Hall the same price though.

...though that's admittedly stupid logic I guess.  Hall's gonna get paid regardless.

Assuming he keeps playing like he did, yeah, he probably does get the same price. But its not like you would NOT sign Tavares to not set that precedent, especially where, as you said, Hall's getting his money somewhere anyway. 

[Jimmy Leeds]

3 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Well, that's what Greg Brady had to say, but did anyone check with Peter, Bobby, Marcia, Jan, or Cindy?  Carol or Mike?  Alice?  SAM?!

Or Oliver and Tiger

Do you think Hall would be ticked if Tavares came in at those huge numbers?

 

[MadDog2020]

Or Oliver and Tiger
Do you think Hall would be ticked if Tavares came in at those huge numbers?
 

Hall wants to win the Stanley Cup. He wants to see us making moves that will help him accomplish that. I highly doubt he’ll give a sh!t if Tavares makes slightly more than him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sharifijanov2099]

Am I the only one who thinks offering McDavid's contract is not prudent?  McDavid did better than a point per game in his rookie (injured) season.  Last 2 seasons, 100 pts and 108 pts.  John Tavares had a 54 pt (over 82) rookie season and has averaged roughly a point per game since his 3rd year in the league.  But an 82 point center and a 100 pt center are not the same at all.  There's certainly a few notches of elite play between these 2.  McDavid may well turn out to be the best player since Gretzky, while Tavares may one day be a top 50 player in the all time history book, but again, those are different things entirely.

I agree NJ has to be in on any discussion about Tavares.  They have to be.  They have the cap room.  It makes a lot of sense (although also presenting a problem since Hischier had nice chemistry with Hall and Tavares won't play second fiddle).  But 12/m is a ton of cap money.  And what others say is true - what does that do the pricetag on Hall?  Hall has had 1 great season.  I'm not sure we want to be paying Tavares/Hall money like Pitt payed Crosby/Malkin at the time.  

P. Kane makes 10.5.  Eichel makes 10.  Ovechkin and Benn make 9.5.  I understand that every year the top salaries go higher, and you can't compare players who signed mega deals a few years back with current standards, but for John Tavares, an all world talent who will probably produce a point per game clip for the next 5 years, I would offer no more than 10m/7 years.

[mfitz804]

46 minutes ago, Jimmy Leeds said:

Do you think Hall would be ticked if Tavares came in at those huge numbers?

 

34 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

Hall wants to win the Stanley Cup. He wants to see us making moves that will help him accomplish that. I highly doubt he’ll give a sh!t if Tavares makes slightly more than him.

Asked and answered. Now, when Hall's contract is up, I would fully expect his agent's pitch to start with "Well, you gave JT..."

[mfitz804]

2 minutes ago, Sharifijanov2099 said:

Am I the only one who thinks offering McDavid's contract is not prudent?  McDavid did better than a point per game in his rookie (injured) season.  Last 2 seasons, 100 pts and 108 pts.  John Tavares had a 54 pt (over 82) rookie season and has averaged roughly a point per game since his 3rd year in the league.  But an 82 point center and a 100 pt center are not the same at all.  There's certainly a few notches of elite play between these 2.  McDavid may well turn out to be the best player since Gretzky, while Tavares may one day be a top 50 player in the all time history book, but again, those are different things entirely.

I totally agree with this. But it's never how these things work. He's going to be the most highly sought after free agent in a long while. He's going to get more than he's "worth". Will he get the same deal as McDavid? Maybe, maybe not. Will it be close? More likely than not. 

3 minutes ago, Sharifijanov2099 said:

P. Kane makes 10.5.  Eichel makes 10.  Ovechkin and Benn make 9.5.  I understand that every year the top salaries go higher, and you can't compare players who signed mega deals a few years back with current standards, but for John Tavares, an all world talent who will probably produce a point per game clip for the next 5 years, I would offer no more than 10m/7 years.

I think he's going to be more expensive than that and if you want him and 10m/7 years is your first offer, he may not stick around to hear your second offer. 

As far as Tavares being about a point per game player, that's accurate. On a team that was pretty bad, making the playoffs only 3 times in his 9 seasons, one of them being a shortened season. If you are going to discount point per game guys that played on crap teams, there's a guy named Taylor Hall that might disagree with you. 

[Sharifijanov2099]

Well, that could all be true what you say.  I'm sure someone will indeed give Tavares a monster deal around 12m.  But I think the question is: should NJ?  At a certain financial point, every contract as the potential to be a negative value add.  McDavid makes 12, sure.  But even a 100 point guy at 20m per season with current cap limitations with be an awful contract (I know the NHL doesn't allow that, but am illustrating the point).  So, at what value does a point per game center like Tavares become a "bad" signing?  You have to fetch positive value in this league, underpay over-performing players for periods, and when it's time to sign large deals, not go so far above that they weigh down the team.  For me, 10m is the max I'd pay a guy like Tavares.  He might not sign with me because of that, but I don't think he's worth more than that.  My 2 cents.  That said, he's a wonderful player.  I'd love to have him if it made sense.

[NJDfan1711]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

I saw that.  It makes no sense.  Of all the things that makes Tavares say "I'm out", it's Doug Weight?  If that were the case, you think he would have told the owners, who would not have brought in a guy might very well fire him. 

The trading rights thing is a dead give away also, as they're not worth anything, and the sign and trade thing that Dreger or whoever came up with is a fantasy. 

For all we know this Brady fellow who I never heard of before, got his information from this guy who has come crawling back to twitter (don't read without the special safety glasses)

 

Just to play devil's advocate, some players grow quite attached to their coaches.  They view them as father figures and role models, guys they look up to and spend time with the majority of the year.  Not only that, but Tavares has only played for one team his entire career, and Weight was there for almost all of it (assistant in 2011-12, head coach the last two).  

As far as the rights thing is concerned, you're right it's not really worth anything because of free agency being right around the corner, but that doesn't mean they won't attempt to do it, which is what the tweet said.  Most teams would probably be stupid to trade for his rights, but there might be one or two clubs whose situation would allow them to acquire them without giving up too much.  Who knows.

[NJDfan1711]

25 minutes ago, Sharifijanov2099 said:

Well, that could all be true what you say.  I'm sure someone will indeed give Tavares a monster deal around 12m.  But I think the question is: should NJ?  At a certain financial point, every contract as the potential to be a negative value add.  

We made the playoffs this year and lost to a team that was essentially ruling the league and the #1 spot in the standings for 80% of the season.  We did this after being pretty bad the previous two seasons, and with a couple of significant injuries throughout.  Signing someone like Tavares may not guarantee a Cup, but it will certainly get us to where we would have a reasonable expectation of being able to compete for one for the next several years.

If the difference between potentially being in that situation above, and not being in that situation, is $2M for one player, you do it.  All day. Every day.  No two ways about it.   Shero and the Devils owners won't miss that two million dollars, and it certainly won't be considered a negative add, when they have The Stanley Cup on a lounge chair on the patio in their backyard on a bright sunny day in the middle of July 2019.

Edited June 6, 2018 by NJDfan1711

[mfitz804]

37 minutes ago, Sharifijanov2099 said:

Well, that could all be true what you say.  I'm sure someone will indeed give Tavares a monster deal around 12m.  But I think the question is: should NJ?  At a certain financial point, every contract as the potential to be a negative value add.  McDavid makes 12, sure.  But even a 100 point guy at 20m per season with current cap limitations with be an awful contract (I know the NHL doesn't allow that, but am illustrating the point).  So, at what value does a point per game center like Tavares become a "bad" signing?  You have to fetch positive value in this league, underpay over-performing players for periods, and when it's time to sign large deals, not go so far above that they weigh down the team.  For me, 10m is the max I'd pay a guy like Tavares.  He might not sign with me because of that, but I don't think he's worth more than that.  My 2 cents.  That said, he's a wonderful player.  I'd love to have him if it made sense.

You're fixated on the whole point per game thing.

The points per game leader this year (McDavid) averaged 1.3 points per game. Hall averaged 1.2. Tavares 1.0. There were 34 guys in the league who averaged a point a game this year. It pretty much compares to the All Star game roster, if not exactly, you could certainly argue that those 34 guys could make up the two teams. 

But the 34 guys is an aberration, not the norm. Go back one season, and only nine guys scored a point per game. Season before that, 12 guys. Season before that, 11 guys.  I wouldn't be so quick to discount a point per game guy, those guys are basically the most elite players in the league. 

The question is, in the right surroundings, is Tavares only a point per game guy, or is he better than that? 

I'd be banking on the fact that there's a significant chance that JT and TH play together and both of them are better than a point per game. And if both of them are, our chances at playoffs and/or playoff success are much greater. 

That sort of thing. 

 

[Chuck the Duck]

Tavares is a great player, but he's not worth McDavid money and there is no way in hell I go there with my offer.  He is going to get a contract for 7 years, so term isn't even a consideration here.  Ultimately, I'd like to get him at 10, and might be willing to go to 11.  That is my max, 11 over 7 years, which still makes me cringe thinking about it for a player that has had a knee injuries in the past and isn't a great skater.  Ultimately, I think he's getting more than that with the craziness of FA and how it all works.

Having him would be great and would elevate the Devils to potential Cup contenders, but I don't think it's going to happen.  

[vadvlfan]

6 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Well, that's what Greg Brady had to say, but did anyone check with Peter, Bobby, Marcia, Jan, or Cindy?  Carol or Mike?  Alice?  SAM?!

This is wrong. Yes,  JT lived with Weight when he was a rookie.  To think he won't come back because Weight was let go is wrong. JT wants to see stability in the org. Is Belmont (new arena) on?  A new voice and #1 goalie might just do the trick. 

I think it's key Lou hire a coach asap. John Madden, Sheldon Keefe, Stevens whoever. This will factor in to his decision. This new coach will interview and pump JT's tires to come back.

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

 

Asked and answered. Now, when Hall's contract is up, I would fully expect his agent's pitch to start with "Well, you gave JT..."

Hall would probably agree to less AAV than Tavares, because presumably those contract negotiations will have begun more than a year before he becomes a free agent and the Devils can give him eight years.  That means he can get close to as much total money as Tavares even if it’s less AAV and he doesn’t have to worry about earning his next contract in the last year of his current one.  

My guess is that Hall gets something like 8 years $80 million, which would be eminently doable with the sort of contract I’d give Tavares.  

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Chuck the Duck said:

Tavares is a great player, but he's not worth McDavid money and there is no way in hell I go there with my offer.  He is going to get a contract for 7 years, so term isn't even a consideration here.  Ultimately, I'd like to get him at 10, and might be willing to go to 11.  That is my max, 11 over 7 years, which still makes me cringe thinking about it for a player that has had a knee injuries in the past and isn't a great skater.  Ultimately, I think he's getting more than that with the craziness of FA and how it all works.

Having him would be great and would elevate the Devils to potential Cup contenders, but I don't think it's going to happen.  

Would your position change if Tavares was currently on our roster and you had to offer him McDavid’s contract to get him to stay?  If so, it means you should do whatever it takes to get him here if it’s in the cards.

[mfitz804]

5 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Hall would probably agree to less AAV than Tavares, because presumably those contract negotiations will have begun more than a year before he becomes a free agent and the Devils can give him eight years.  That means he can get close to as much total money as Tavares even if it’s less AAV and he doesn’t have to worry about earning his next contract in the last year of his current one.  

My guess is that Hall gets something like 8 years $80 million, which would be eminently doable with the sort of contract I’d give Tavares.  

I’m not saying he’d take the same money, but his agent would definitely negotiate off the price they give JT. “You gave JT $12.5,m, surely Taylor is worth $11.5m”, that kind of stuff. 

[SterioDesign]

7 hours ago, NewarkDevil5 said:

If playing for a coach that's fun to play for is important to Tavares then perhaps Hall loving to play for Hynes will be a selling point to Tavares.....

it was for Butcher

[Lateralous]

1 hour ago, mfitz804 said:

I’m not saying he’d take the same money, but his agent would definitely negotiate off the price they give JT. “You gave JT $12.5,m, surely Taylor is worth $11.5m”, that kind of stuff. 

I know this wasn’t necessarily your point but that sounds a hell of a lot better than “Taylor is twice as good as any other Devil not on his ELC so surely he is worth 11.5” 

If we get in trouble with the cap during Halls and Tavares prime, I doubt that they’ll be the contracts we’re worried about.   It’s always the overpaid secondary guys 

[SterioDesign]

8 minutes ago, Lateralous said:

I know this wasn’t necessarily your point but that sounds a hell of a lot better than “Taylor is twice as good as any other Devil not on his ELC so surely he is worth 11.5” 

If we get in trouble with the cap during Halls and Tavares prime, I doubt that they’ll be the contracts we’re worried about.   It’s always the overpaid secondary guys 

that being said Toews and Kane is already a bit of a problem and they got a cup not long ago

[Triumph]

A:  If your pitch to Tavares is 'we won't pay you more than McDavid' expect to not get him.  

B:  If your pitch to Hall after getting Tavares is 'we'll pay you less than him', don't expect him to be happy with that.

Also, Greg Brady is a sports talk radio host in Toronto - is he connected to Tavares, who knows.  I don't give that report a ton of credibility, but he's not some total nobody.

[mfitz804]

58 minutes ago, Kinkyisth3b3st said:

Taylor is worth that, though. 

He may be. My only point was, if you (not YOU, you in the general sense) don’t think they use JT’s contract as a negotiating point, you’re 100% wrong. 

[mfitz804]

6 minutes ago, Triumph said:

Also, Greg Brady is a sports talk radio host in Toronto - is he connected to Tavares, who knows.  I don't give that report a ton of credibility, but he's not some total nobody.

Also known as Johnny Bravo, but only because he fit the suit. 

[Derlique]

8 minutes ago, Triumph said:

A:  If your pitch to Tavares is 'we won't pay you more than McDavid' expect to not get him.  

B:  If your pitch to Hall after getting Tavares is 'we'll pay you less than him', don't expect him to be happy with that.

Also, Greg Brady is a sports talk radio host in Toronto - is he connected to Tavares, who knows.  I don't give that report a ton of credibility, but he's not some total nobody.

This is a good point and one that shouldn't be glossed over. There's a good chance Hall/Tavares/Nico will cost you ~30 million in two years. If you're Shero, are you comfortable with that being your core for the next 7 years?

[Derlique]

1 minute ago, Kinkyisth3b3st said:

Jesus Christ holy sh!t and emphatically yes. 

If Nico is worth ~10m on his second contract, something went very very very fvcking right.

I was thinking more 12,12, 6

[mfitz804]

Just now, Derlique said:

I was thinking more 12,12, 6

Right now, yes. But Nico has time yet, hopefully it’s more than that. 

And yeah, I’d take that core. Add one really good defenseman to that and it’s the stuff championships are built on. 

[SterioDesign]

i mean... if im Shero im trying to somehow sell both players on being the next "Crosby/malkin.... Benn/Seguin.... Toews/Kane... Parise/Suter etc etc  Which are usually signed at the same price for the best of the team