Jump to content
NJDfan1711

2018 Pre-Season Thread

Recommended Posts

14 hours ago, Daniel said:

Am I correct that there’s no such thing as the draft in the Premier League and other European leagues, and that it’s basically the highest bidder that can go out and get the best talent.  Meaning, it would be the equivalent of the Leafs being able to have given Connor McDavid $15 million as a 16 year old to play for them for x amount of time?

It's a bit more complicated and layered, but you're generally right as it pertains to players in their prime. A few bullet-points in case you're interested (I'm interested because I love soccer, but recognize that Europe is operating on a failing model that will burst very soon):

  • In place of the concept of drafting, the European leagues have a super extensive "academy" model, where they're scouting in other countries and plucking up young kids at 12-16 years of age as prospects. Messi's a good example: he was signed by Barcelona at 13; he had a growth hormone deficiency but was so talented that Barcelona signed him under the premise that they'd pay for all his medical bills.
    • To a much lesser extent New York Red Bulls have a similar system (signing kids 15-16+) and have invested pretty heavily into their facilities, so that they arguably have the best "academy"/farm in the league. It's a little different though because of child labor laws, I think, so I think there's a bit more red tape here.
  • I don't think there are all that many restrictions on how much money you can pump into your academies, so I'm sure some teams have networks of hundreds of kids on their payroll that they're monitoring and have the rights to. I think until you're 18 or 19, you can terminate these kids' contracts with few restrictions.
    • For example, some teams have strong scouting networks in Senegal or Nigeria, others utilize their resources in Argentina or Brazil; having resident scouts, facilities, lawyers, medical staff, trainers, nutritionists etc. there.
  • In more cases, I think teams buy the "rights" to some of these prospects and monitor them from afar until it's clear whether it's worth it or not for them to join the farm system.
  • Teams with more money and resources can afford to put U23, U21, U18, U16, etc. teams together, so there are some U23, U21, etc. leagues that play against each other. The more of these age groups you can afford to outfit players for, I would imagine the advantage you have in getting them game-ready and seeing who is your next star.
  • Strangely, there actually are some smaller teams with amazing scouting apparatuses and networks for some reason, who sign and develop so many young stars, but don't always have the finances or means to hold onto them in their prime, so they're always selling. I'm thinking of Parma, Atalanta, and Roma (in Italy) as examples.
    • They churn out talent, but once that talent has an explosive season, he's plucked by Juventus, Manchester City, Manchester United, or Real Madrid for what they think is a big fee.
    • They go on to be stars and be worth 3-4 times that fee.
    • It's depressing, but it's a business model that I guess works for them and is less of a risk than pouring a few hundred million into an elite team that may or may not win the championship. That sentiment right there is a glimpse into why this whole model in Europe is not sustainable. No one in Italy can outspend Juventus, so no one but Juventus win each and every year.
Edited by DJ Eco

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

 

How are smaller clubs supposed to compete when Manchester United can get £75million a year just for their kit deal?

 

A reverse order amateur draft and minimum service time with a club would do just that, just as the near bankrupt Penguins became one of the perrenially dominant teams in the league, and why the Maple Leafs were the embarrassment of the league for while. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Daniel said:

A reverse order amateur draft and minimum service time with a club would do just that, just as the near bankrupt Penguins became one of the perrenially dominant teams in the league, and why the Maple Leafs were the embarrassment of the league for while. 

A draft is simply not possible in football. Because there is no pool of amature tallent to draft players from. There isn't a minor league in football and there isn't an educational bases college or youth system to pluck players from. Clubs at all levels have thier own youth teams where they can develop their own players from as young as 6. 

If you made it so as the Premier League clubs could pluck the best tallent out of the lower leagues you are only widening the gap. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

A draft is simply not possible in football. Because there is no pool of amature tallent to draft players from. There isn't a minor league in football and there isn't an educational bases college or youth system to pluck players from. Clubs at all levels have thier own youth teams where they can develop their own players from as young as 6. 

If you made it so as the Premier League clubs could pluck the best tallent out of the lower leagues you are only widening the gap. 

Oh, I completely understand that.  And, I would venture a guess that it would probably be illegal under EU law and the laws of the various countries in which the major European teams operate.  That North American sports leagues are unionized and de facto exempt from antitrust laws as a result of that is an historical anomaly more than anything else.

Theoretically though, it is possible if enough teams throughout Europe wanted to change to something along the lines of the North American model.  Something like all UEFA clubs agree to a reverse order draft for players within their own countries and a salary cap for all amateur talent outside of Europe.  So, for instance, in England, the worst team in the league gets the first pick of all players at a minimum age that reside in England, second worst team picks second, and so forth.  Then you have the same system for Germany, France, Spain and Italy.  Each club then gets a set amount of money to pay for the best 16 year olds that live outside of places with a UEFA club, which is the way it works in baseball with Dominican and South American players.  While there may not be the same amateur youth system that exists in North America, it's not like these guys have literally never kicked a ball or have been scouted when they are recruited to play in those academies.

There's obviously no incentive for teams like Man U to agree to this unless there were massive expansion fees involved.   But still, there is a means to do it, legalities aside.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The general consensus seems to be that just about all the young kids has pretty good games last night wherever they were. They wont make the decisions for the coaching staff easy, that's a good thing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DJ Eco said:

It's a bit more complicated and layered, but you're generally right as it pertains to players in their prime. A few bullet-points in case you're interested (I'm interested because I love soccer, but recognize that Europe is operating on a failing model that will burst very soon):

  • In place of the concept of drafting, the European leagues have a super extensive "academy" model, where they're scouting in other countries and plucking up young kids at 12-16 years of age as prospects. Messi's a good example: he was signed by Barcelona at 13; he had a growth hormone deficiency but was so talented that Barcelona signed him under the premise that they'd pay for all his medical bills.
    • To a much lesser extent New York Red Bulls have a similar system (signing kids 15-16+) and have invested pretty heavily into their facilities, so that they arguably have the best "academy"/farm in the league. It's a little different though because of child labor laws, I think, so I think there's a bit more red tape here.
  • I don't think there are all that many restrictions on how much money you can pump into your academies, so I'm sure some teams have networks of hundreds of kids on their payroll that they're monitoring and have the rights to. I think until you're 18 or 19, you can terminate these kids' contracts with few restrictions.
    • For example, some teams have strong scouting networks in Senegal or Nigeria, others utilize their resources in Argentina or Brazil; having resident scouts, facilities, lawyers, medical staff, trainers, nutritionists etc. there.
  • In more cases, I think teams buy the "rights" to some of these prospects and monitor them from afar until it's clear whether it's worth it or not for them to join the farm system.
  • Teams with more money and resources can afford to put U23, U21, U18, U16, etc. teams together, so there are some U23, U21, etc. leagues that play against each other. The more of these age groups you can afford to outfit players for, I would imagine the advantage you have in getting them game-ready and seeing who is your next star.
  • Strangely, there actually are some smaller teams with amazing scouting apparatuses and networks for some reason, who sign and develop so many young stars, but don't always have the finances or means to hold onto them in their prime, so they're always selling. I'm thinking of Parma, Atalanta, and Roma (in Italy) as examples.
    • They churn out talent, but once that talent has an explosive season, he's plucked by Juventus, Manchester City, Manchester United, or Real Madrid for what they think is a big fee.
    • They go on to be stars and be worth 3-4 times that fee.
    • It's depressing, but it's a business model that I guess works for them and is less of a risk than pouring a few hundred million into an elite team that may or may not win the championship. That sentiment right there is a glimpse into why this whole model in Europe is not sustainable. No one in Italy can outspend Juventus, so no one but Juventus win each and every year.

Youth players can only sign a pro contract when they reach 17 years old. Before that they don't get paid, but clubs academies and schoolboy contracts will often be loaded with perks such as free education, travel expenses financial help for families etc. The schoolboy contracts are two years in lenght and the club will decide whether to renew them after each period. 

Once players get to 17 they can get paid. It's not unheard of for players at top teams to be clearing 20k a week. I used to love down the road from a guy who played as a youth player for Crystal Palace. They paid for him and his brother to attend one of the areas best schools in full , then when he turned 17 he signed a deal that was paying him 4k a week. 

The youth system is actually possibly the most regulated area of football in terms of transfers. That's why you often see teams getting transfer band for trying to sign youth players before they are eligible. Like with Athletico Madrid and Barca. 

A lot of protections have now bee. Put in place to safeguard smaller clubs from not receiving any financial reward for developing players. If a big club like Chelsea comes in a signs a youth player at 17 who has come through a smaller clubs youth academy then the smaller club will be due a fee from Chelsea which goes through arbitration. This also happens between big clubs. A good example of this is the recent move by Dominic Solanke from Chelsea to Liverpool. He was at Chelsea from the age of 8 and when his contract expired he signed for Liverpool. Chelsea are looking for 10million in compensation, Liverpool are arguing for £3million. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Oh, I completely understand that.  And, I would venture a guess that it would probably be illegal under EU law and the laws of the various countries in which the major European teams operate.  That North American sports leagues are unionized and de facto exempt from antitrust laws as a result of that is an historical anomaly more than anything else.

Theoretically though, it is possible if enough teams throughout Europe wanted to change to something along the lines of the North American model.  Something like all UEFA clubs agree to a reverse order draft for players within their own countries and a salary cap for all amateur talent outside of Europe.  So, for instance, in England, the worst team in the league gets the first pick of all players at a minimum age that reside in England, second worst team picks second, and so forth.  Then you have the same system for Germany, France, Spain and Italy.  Each club then gets a set amount of money to pay for the best 16 year olds that live outside of places with a UEFA club, which is the way it works in baseball with Dominican and South American players.  While there may not be the same amateur youth system that exists in North America, it's not like these guys have literally never kicked a ball or have been scouted when they are recruited to play in those academies.

There's obviously no incentive for teams like Man U to agree to this unless there were massive expansion fees involved.   But still, there is a means to do it, legalities aside.

The trouble is where do you start with the draft given that all the tiers of domestic European football are linked through promotion and relegation?

The only way that would work is by creating a fixed group of 20 teams at the top of each domestic league. If you do that you are creating an elite that will only get stronger.

The beauty of the English football league is that teams like Bournemouth and Swansea can climb four or 5 divisions and eventually make it to that elite. The system you propose kills that and probably about 600 football clubs in the process. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

The trouble is where do you start with the draft given that all the tiers of domestic European football are linked through promotion and relegation?

The only way that would work is by creating a fixed group of 20 teams at the top of each domestic league. If you do that you are creating an elite that will only get stronger.

The beauty of the English football league is that teams like Bournemouth and Swansea can climb four or 5 divisions and eventually make it to that elite. The system you propose kills that and probably about 600 football clubs in the process. 

 

How do they climb? I don't understand how any of these clubs eventually get to the kind of level financially/on the pitch to compete with top tier teams. I would think they are stuck due to their lack of popularity, which means they have limited revenue for their on-field product, which means they can't field a good team, which means they have no success, which means they have a lack of popularity, and so on goes the pattern.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

Youth players can only sign a pro contract when they reach 17 years old. Before that they don't get paid, but clubs academies and schoolboy contracts will often be loaded with perks such as free education, travel expenses financial help for families etc. The schoolboy contracts are two years in lenght and the club will decide whether to renew them after each period. 

Once players get to 17 they can get paid. It's not unheard of for players at top teams to be clearing 20k a week. I used to love down the road from a guy who played as a youth player for Crystal Palace. They paid for him and his brother to attend one of the areas best schools in full , then when he turned 17 he signed a deal that was paying him 4k a week. 

The youth system is actually possibly the most regulated area of football in terms of transfers. That's why you often see teams getting transfer band for trying to sign youth players before they are eligible. Like with Athletico Madrid and Barca. 

A lot of protections have now bee. Put in place to safeguard smaller clubs from not receiving any financial reward for developing players. If a big club like Chelsea comes in a signs a youth player at 17 who has come through a smaller clubs youth academy then the smaller club will be due a fee from Chelsea which goes through arbitration. This also happens between big clubs. A good example of this is the recent move by Dominic Solanke from Chelsea to Liverpool. He was at Chelsea from the age of 8 and when his contract expired he signed for Liverpool. Chelsea are looking for 10million in compensation, Liverpool are arguing for £3million. 

I would love it if someone like Jeff Bezos and few other obscenely wealthy people in the US would do something like this for youth/amateur American football as an alternative to the NCAA where players that aren't ready for the NFL can get paid.  Any money they put into it should be considered a charitable donation, if it leads to the divorce of big money football from educational institutions since it would benefit the latter in the long run, anyway.

 

5 minutes ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

The trouble is where do you start with the draft given that all the tiers of domestic European football are linked through promotion and relegation?

The only way that would work is by creating a fixed group of 20 teams at the top of each domestic league. If you do that you are creating an elite that will only get stronger.

The beauty of the English football league is that teams like Bournemouth and Swansea can climb four or 5 divisions and eventually make it to that elite. The system you propose kills that and probably about 600 football clubs in the process. 

 

I don't know enough of about how the system works other than what I'm being told here.  All I'm saying is that if you want a system where it's not the same small groups of clubs that have access to the best players and therefore a chance to win championships, the model has to change drastically.  Europeans seem to like the way it works now, so far be it from me to tell them to do it differently.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

How do they climb? I don't understand how any of these clubs eventually get to the kind of level financially/on the pitch to compete with top tier teams. I would think they are stuck due to their lack of popularity, which means they have limited revenue for their on-field product, which means they can't field a good team, which means they have no success, which means they have a lack of popularity, and so on goes the pattern.

That’s an innate difference between here and overseas. Overseas, nationwide popularity isn’t strongly linked to success on the field. Someone in Newcastle isn’t going to suddenly start supporting Chelsea because they’re good. People love their clubs no matter what and don’t support other clubs because they happen to be good. Plus, there are large, well supported clubs in the lower tiers, so promotion is feasible through smart transfers and coaching.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, devlman said:

That’s an innate difference between here and overseas. Overseas, nationwide popularity isn’t strongly linked to success on the field. Someone in Newcastle isn’t going to suddenly start supporting Chelsea because they’re good. People love their clubs no matter what and don’t support other clubs because they happen to be good. Plus, there are large, well supported clubs in the lower tiers, so promotion is feasible through smart transfers and coaching.

I understand that, but top tier teams like Manchester United and Barcelona have global bases too. I'm asking how teams could possibly ever get to that level. Maybe those teams are too big to catch, but even the Devils have some kind of fan base outside North America. Do small teams in European football ever garner any interest away from their local market or are they just focused on providing for that market? In that case, these clubs are run like local businesses focused on providing a service and as long as they turn some profit for ownership everyone's happy. 

Edited by NJDevils1214

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really interesting stuff about the soccer development.  I did not know any of that.  Thanks for sharing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NJDevils1214 said:

I understand that, but top tier teams like Manchester United and Barcelona have global bases too. I'm asking how teams could possibly ever get to that level. Maybe those teams are too big to catch, but even the Devils have some kind of fan base outside North America. Do small teams in European football ever garner any interest away from their local market or are they just focused on providing for that market? In that case, these clubs are run like local businesses focused on providing a service and as long as they turn some profit for ownership everyone's happy. 

Well yeah clubs like Man United and Barcelona would take many years to catch with how wide the gap is right now. The best a small local club can do is get cash by selling off players, then use it to make smart purchases on players, get promoted, use the revenue from promotion to keep working the club up the ladder. Its very difficult but can be done. But youre right in that for the most part the local clubs worry about their own leagues and celebrate it on that level. Staying financially afloat is sometimes the only goal. Grow the players, sell them for profit...try to do that as much as you can until you can further your competitive ambitions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, NJDevils1214 said:

How do they climb? I don't understand how any of these clubs eventually get to the kind of level financially/on the pitch to compete with top tier teams. I would think they are stuck due to their lack of popularity, which means they have limited revenue for their on-field product, which means they can't field a good team, which means they have no success, which means they have a lack of popularity, and so on goes the pattern.

Winning the championships and moving into a higher division. The higher you climb the bigger the reward. TV money increases as you get promoted. As others have said success or having a good team isn't necessarily intrinsic to having loads of local support. Newcastle is an absolutely perfect example. Havent won a top level competition in years but still gate 56k fans per game no matter what they are doing or what division they are in. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Daniel said:

I would love it if someone like Jeff Bezos and few other obscenely wealthy people in the US would do something like this for youth/amateur American football as an alternative to the NCAA where players that aren't ready for the NFL can get paid.  Any money they put into it should be considered a charitable donation, if it leads to the divorce of big money football from educational institutions since it would benefit the latter in the long run, anyway.

 

I don't know enough of about how the system works other than what I'm being told here.  All I'm saying is that if you want a system where it's not the same small groups of clubs that have access to the best players and therefore a chance to win championships, the model has to change drastically.  Europeans seem to like the way it works now, so far be it from me to tell them to do it differently.

 

Yeah it's such a huge system that you would have to take apart 100 years of structure and history basically in every domestic league. 

Globally there tends to be a focus on the top division in each country , but the lower leagues also have chapionship trophies and then domestic cup competitions such as the FA Cup, League Cup, FA trophy. There are a lot of other competitions for all teams to compete for. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

Yeah it's such a huge system that you would have to take apart 100 years of structure and history basically in every domestic league. 

Globally there tends to be a focus on the top division in each country , but the lower leagues also have chapionship trophies and then domestic cup competitions such as the FA Cup, League Cup, FA trophy. There are a lot of other competitions for all teams to compete for. 

I think we can pretty safely say that Europe should stick with their system and North America should stick with its system.  The only clubs I do have sympathy for in Europe are clubs who are probably at the middle of the table who really have no shot at the championship and the challenge is to be around .500.  But otherwise at the bottom of the Premier League the goal seems to be to remain in the top division and for everyone else it's to get promoted.

The drawback to the North American system, especially with hockey, is that lockouts are absolutely inevitable and there's no downside to them for the owners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.