Schneider: done or finished?

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

1 hour ago, AEWHistory said:

It is a real shame, but I’m not at all surprised.  I posted this THREAD back in 2015 and was eviscerated.  It was basically the last time I created a topic (I don’t need any more strangers being a$$holes to me).  I argued then that this team was not going to be a contender before CS was no longer a top level goalie.  Consequently, why not trade him for some younger, longer term talent that will be part of the building pieces going forward.  I don’t know what we might have gotten for CS back in 2015, but it is a helluva lot more than we will get now.  

Frankly, if we had traded CS for just about any decent talent we would be much better off.  A defenseman?  We need that.  A forward?  We could use depth and it might have freed up a draft pick to use on our anemic looking defensive group.  Or maybe some draft picks.  Who knows, maybe we draft a goalie who will be with us when the Devils are truly ready for a cup run in a few years.  As it is, we got nothing.....  

Jesus, going back and reading through that was tough. I think the franchise and the team were in a very bad place at that time and so were the fans. It took basically nothing to set people off back then. 

What is interesting reading that thread is that a few players mentioned as trade pieces for the Devil's to acquire are now on the team , people both mentioned Hall and Palmieri. 

[mfitz804]

3 hours ago, Nicomo said:

Wow...I’m glad some of those people don’t post here anymore. Also nice to see that a lot of those that do were the more level headed ones that actually defended your thread, or were at least civil about it.  

Funny that someone said they’d trade Cory for Hall. lol

Was the trade one for one?

[vadvlfan]

19 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

I think the greater concern may be, who else will be here next year? Is KK going to re-sign for a backup/tandem role? How much is he going to be able to command? Can we still afford him while having a $6m backup?

Schneids has a NTC, but a contending team may give him a shot.(that he would "approve")  I think KK would like to stay, he likes it here. Is Blackwood ready to make the jump as back up?  Keep Lack after this year? 

Hoping Sami isn't out very long. 

[NJDfan1711]

Wow, lots of people eating crow now, and crazy how fortuitous that thread and the OP was.  

Did you all read the post? What happens three or four years from now when we become solid competitors and he is declining?

😧

Also, for the record, I think I had one of the more level-headed posts, and I was pretty nice to the guy too, unlike basically everyone else lol.

He doesn't deserved to be flamed for this.  Unfortunately a question like this generally has only two, very distinct sides and answers, but try to have a level head and find the middle ground.  The guy is just bringing up an interesting point.  While I agree he shouldn't be traded, mainly because great goalies are hard to find and to me they are the cornterstone with which a team is built around (i.e. a QB in football), think about the other side for moment.  It is very possible that it takes us 3-4 years to even get back into a decent playoff contender.  Do you really think it's going to be light years different next year?  No.  What about the year after that?  Doubtful.  We have virtually NO assets or promising forwards at the moment.  It's fvcking sad.  I've always said depth is the key to winning championships, and we have almost none at the moment.  That 2nd pick we just got from FL....guess what, that guy's going to be 18 or 19 when he gets drafted, and IF he develops into anything, it's going to be 3-4 years+ before he sniffs the team and makes an impact.  

 
It is entirely possible that Cory's play slips and declines before this team has any offensive talent capable of supplementing his fantastic play and making this team actually playoff-conversation-worthy.  
 
I think you've been spoiled by a guy named Marty Brodeur.  He is a once in a lifetime goalie.  They don't come around often and not every goalie plays til 42.  The only reason I think Cory is still of value to us and will be for the next 5 years or so is because he does indeed have low miles on him and he wasn't a true everyday starter really before he came here.  But the fact is, he's going to be 29 next month.    If it wasn't for the fact that he was seldom used in Vancouver, it's possibly me tune would change and I would say sell-sell-sell on him now, and let Kinkaid try to be our #1.

[DevsMan84]

To be fair, in that 2015 thread no one could have foreseen him getting that hip injury.  Without that injury that has been hobbling him for almost 2 years now, Cory would probably still be playing at an elite level right now.

[NJDfan1711]

1 minute ago, DevsMan84 said:

To be fair, in that 2015 thread no one could have foreseen him getting that hip injury.  Without that injury that has been hobbling him for almost 2 years now, Cory would probably still be playing at an elite level right now.

I dunno man.  I mean, the injury definitely didn't help, but...… this sh!t that he's been dealing with is way more than just a hip injury.  He's lost what, 16 regular season games in a row?  It's unfathomable.  He was out the bulk of last year, the entire summer, and the start of this season.  That's plenty of time to recover.  That injury is behind him as far as I'm concerned.  If he's not 100% at this point then he needs to fire whatever doctor or physicians he saw and get his money back, because a billion goalies have dealt with similar injuries and not had anything close to the skid that Schneider has entered.  His level of suckage right now is historically bad.  Two goals on the very first two shots of the game in the very first 30 seconds of the game.  Maybe it's pissing me off more because I was actually there, but you literally can't make this sh!t up.  What's next, 3 goals allowed on the first 3 shots in the first 15 seconds of the game?  Sorry, but it's so much more than him just having a hip injury.  

[Devilsfan118]

6 hours ago, AEWHistory said:

It is a real shame, but I’m not at all surprised.  I posted this THREAD back in 2015 and was eviscerated.  It was basically the last time I created a topic (I don’t need any more strangers being a$$holes to me).  I argued then that this team was not going to be a contender before CS was no longer a top level goalie.  Consequently, why not trade him for some younger, longer term talent that will be part of the building pieces going forward.  I don’t know what we might have gotten for CS back in 2015, but it is a helluva lot more than we will get now.  

Frankly, if we had traded CS for just about any decent talent we would be much better off.  A defenseman?  We need that.  A forward?  We could use depth and it might have freed up a draft pick to use on our anemic looking defensive group.  Or maybe some draft picks.  Who knows, maybe we draft a goalie who will be with us when the Devils are truly ready for a cup run in a few years.  As it is, we got nothing.....  

Let the records show I (mostly) agreed with you 

But in hindsight, man trading Cory would've been the smart move.  If you're going to tank and be terrible you might as well truly do it.

How much better would this team be right now with most of the higher picks in drafts 2015 and 2016:

Then again, we probably don't grab Nico had we selected higher in these drafts.  But imagine where we'd be with one (or two) of McDavid / Eichel / Matthews / Laine.

[Devilsfan118]

6 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

To be fair, in that 2015 thread no one could have foreseen him getting that hip injury.  Without that injury that has been hobbling him for almost 2 years now, Cory would probably still be playing at an elite level right now.

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Cory's durability had not really been proven when we acquired him.. maybe he never had the physical tools to be able to play 60+ games a year for 6+ years and stay healthy.

[DevsMan84]

10 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I dunno man.  I mean, the injury definitely didn't help, but...… this sh!t that he's been dealing with is way more than just a hip injury.  He's lost what, 16 regular season games in a row?  It's unfathomable.  He was out the bulk of last year, the entire summer, and the start of this season.  That's plenty of time to recover.  That injury is behind him as far as I'm concerned.  If he's not 100% at this point then he needs to fire whatever doctor or physicians he saw and get his money back, because a billion goalies have dealt with similar injuries and not had anything close to the skid that Schneider has entered.  His level of suckage right now is historically bad.  Two goals on the very first two shots of the game in the very first 30 seconds of the game.  Maybe it's pissing me off more because I was actually there, but you literally can't make this sh!t up.  What's next, 3 goals allowed on the first 3 shots in the first 15 seconds of the game?  Sorry, but it's so much more than him just having a hip injury.  

Are you his doctor?  Bratt this season had a broken jaw and was said to be out for 2-3 weeks.  He wasn't back for almost 6 weeks.

Cory admitted that he tried to play through it for over a year.  He finally got the surgery in May of this year.  From what I have heard, having hip surgery is one of the worst you can have for a goalie as it affects your entire movement.

What goalie(s) can you name had the same level of hip injury that Cory has dealt with and came back and played at a similar level?

7 minutes ago, Devilsfan118 said:

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Cory's durability had not really been proven when we acquired him.. maybe he never had the physical tools to be able to play 60+ games a year for 6+ years and stay healthy.

That's speculation at best.

He also didn't suddenly started playing goalie when he reached the NHL level.

Edited November 20, 2018 by DevsMan84

[mfitz804]

In the old thread, I asked for three forwards for him. Three "top line" forwards. Clearly that was too high and wouldn't even come close to happening now, I think he'd not bring back much of a return at this point. You might be talking about a couple picks or prospect and a pick. 

I do, however, stand by my proposition that you build around a good goalie, you don't trade him to tank for several years. I would not be a fan of a team that made a move like that. Put the best possible team on the ice every year and do the best you can in the draft. If our plan was literally to tank from 2015 to now, I would have been very upset watching that unfold. 

I'm not a fan of the concept of tanking at all, and to do it by trading away a guy who, at the time, was supposed to be your franchise goalie for years to come? I don't like it. 

And, I would add, its really easy to say what we should have done now (or to say that the OP was correct) that he's been injured and terrible, which as DevsMan84 said, was not foreseeable at the time. 

[NJDfan1711]

40 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Are you his doctor?  Bratt this season had a broken jaw and was said to be out for 2-3 weeks.  He wasn't back for almost 6 weeks.

Cory admitted that he tried to play through it for over a year.  He finally got the surgery in May of this year.  From what I have heard, having hip surgery is one of the worst you can have for a goalie as it affects your entire movement.

What goalie(s) can you name had the same level of hip injury that Cory has dealt with and came back and played at a similar level?

That's speculation at best.

He also didn't suddenly started playing goalie when he reached the NHL level.

Luongo literally just had it two years ago, and he's significantly older than Cory.  Giguere also had it, as well as Kiprusoff.  It's actually become a very common injury over the last two decades or so as basically all goalies play some form of butterfly style now.  Gone are the days of Brodeur stand-up types, unfortunately. 

[NJDfan1711]

23 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

In the old thread, I asked for three forwards for him. Three "top line" forwards. Clearly that was too high and wouldn't even come close to happening now, I think he'd not bring back much of a return at this point. You might be talking about a couple picks or prospect and a pick. 

I do, however, stand by my proposition that you build around a good goalie, you don't trade him to tank for several years. I would not be a fan of a team that made a move like that. Put the best possible team on the ice every year and do the best you can in the draft. If our plan was literally to tank from 2015 to now, I would have been very upset watching that unfold. 

I'm not a fan of the concept of tanking at all, and to do it by trading away a guy who, at the time, was supposed to be your franchise goalie for years to come? I don't like it. 

And, I would add, its really easy to say what we should have done now (or to say that the OP was correct) that he's been injured and terrible, which as DevsMan84 said, was not foreseeable at the time. 

To be fair to the OP, it's not like he's being a Monday morning quarterback.  He was essentially a Saturday morning quarterback, as he predicted exactly what has happened before it happened. 

That aside, I agree with you too, and at the time I didn't really want to trade Cory either, but I understood his reasons for making the initial poll and at least considering it.  It was worth a discussion if you ask me.

[DevsMan84]

5 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Luongo literally just had it two years ago, and he's significantly older than Cory.  Giguere also had it, as well as Kiprusoff.  It's actually become a very common injury over the last two decades or so as basically all goalies play some form of butterfly style now.  Gone are the days of Brodeur stand-up types, unfortunately. 

No two surgeries or recoveries are the same.  We have zero idea about the severity of it, but it is enough for Cory to even admit he has come back and not at 100%.

To pretend that his injuries have zero to do with how his play has been is silly.

[mfitz804]

7 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

To be fair to the OP, it's not like he's being a Monday morning quarterback.  He was essentially a Saturday morning quarterback, as he predicted exactly what has happened before it happened. 

That aside, I agree with you too, and at the time I didn't really want to trade Cory either, but I understood his reasons for making the initial poll and at least considering it.  It was worth a discussion if you ask me.

Absolutely.

I don't know if I would agree that the OP was "right", in the sense that he was saying to trade Cory because he was too good for us and we'd be wasting him, not that he was going to get a catastrophic injury and become a shell of his former self almost immediately. It's real easy to say now that he should have been traded because he sucks now, but that wasn't the OP's point. His point was that the rest of the team sucked. And on that we cannot have a dispute. 

[NJDfan1711]

3 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

No two surgeries or recoveries are the same.  We have zero idea about the severity of it, but it is enough for Cory to even admit he has come back and not at 100%.

To pretend that his injuries have zero to do with how his play has been is silly.

I'm not saying it didn't contribute to it to a degree, but I think to blame his poor play mostly on his injury is equally as silly.  My point was simply that Cory isn't special or unique in this circumstance.  It happens to lots of guys - and it's true, some don't return to the same form, but hell, some actually return to even better form - because as you said no two injuries and recoveries are the same - but very few, if none at all, actually experience the immense downfall that Cory has experienced.  Like I said, the stats that he's put up are hard to find and duplicate in the recent past.

[NJDfan1711]

1 minute ago, mfitz804 said:

Absolutely.

I don't know if I would agree that the OP was "right", in the sense that he was saying to trade Cory because he was too good for us and we'd be wasting him, not that he was going to get a catastrophic injury and become a shell of his former self almost immediately. It's real easy to say now that he should have been traded because he sucks now, but that wasn't the OP's point. His point was that the rest of the team sucked. And on that we cannot have a dispute. 

For sure.  I kinda feel bad for him because he basically said he stayed away from here because he got such a backlash from people, and ironically Cory has had a decline much like he thought he would, if not more.  

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

7 hours ago, AEWHistory said:

It is a real shame, but I’m not at all surprised.  I posted this THREAD back in 2015 and was eviscerated.  It was basically the last time I created a topic (I don’t need any more strangers being a$$holes to me).  I argued then that this team was not going to be a contender before CS was no longer a top level goalie.  Consequently, why not trade him for some younger, longer term talent that will be part of the building pieces going forward.  I don’t know what we might have gotten for CS back in 2015, but it is a helluva lot more than we will get now.  

Frankly, if we had traded CS for just about any decent talent we would be much better off.  A defenseman?  We need that.  A forward?  We could use depth and it might have freed up a draft pick to use on our anemic looking defensive group.  Or maybe some draft picks.  Who knows, maybe we draft a goalie who will be with us when the Devils are truly ready for a cup run in a few years.  As it is, we got nothing.....  

Hope you're not lumping everyone who responded to you into the same group.  My posts were pretty levelheaded and I definitely did NOT eviscerate you in the slightest...I was against Cory being dealt, but I provided reasoning to support my viewpoint that I thought made sense.  What I didn't see coming was Cory's game coming apart the way that it did, seemingly out of nowhere...if we had this conversation back in late December of last year we'd all be saying how great it was that Cory was still Cory, just when the Devils were appearing to turn a corner.  Amazing what a difference 11 months can make. 

Even if you're not necessarily surprised that Cory currently isn't what he was, you HAVE to be surprised that his game fell off so sharply as quickly as it did.  This is a guy who through 28 starts last season had a 17-6-4 record and a .923 save%...the save% was right around where you'd expect him to be, and at that point it looked like a rough 2016-17 (where just about the whole team was awful, especially down the stretch) was in his rearview.  Then just like that...no slow or steady decline, just a sudden fall off a cliff.  And he's not THAT old for a goalie, really...he'll be 33 in March.  And he wasn't a guy who had a heavy workload for someone his age...where he was at the time of your thread didn't really point to this outcome...but like you raised, it was a possibility.

And in fairness, it seemed like the main troublemaker was louisismydad. 

What's interesting is that two names were mentioned as possible (hopeful) returns in any potential deals involving Cory were Kyle Palmieri and Taylor Hall.  Pretty cool that Shero landed them both...for Adam Larsson, a second-rounder, and a third-rounder no less. 

[DevsMan84]

32 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I'm not saying it didn't contribute to it to a degree, but I think to blame his poor play mostly on his injury is equally as silly.  My point was simply that Cory isn't special or unique in this circumstance.  It happens to lots of guys - and it's true, some don't return to the same form, but hell, some actually return to even better form - because as you said no two injuries and recoveries are the same - but very few, if none at all, actually experience the immense downfall that Cory has experienced.  Like I said, the stats that he's put up are hard to find and duplicate in the recent past.

Fair enough.  I will also say that yes, at least a good chunk also seems to be mental on Cory's part.

[mfitz804]

31 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

For sure.  I kinda feel bad for him because he basically said he stayed away from here because he got such a backlash from people, and ironically Cory has had a decline much like he thought he would, if not more.  

Cory didn't have a decline, he fell off a cliff. Likely because of the injury. It's two different things. 

[NJDfan1711]

9 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Cory didn't have a decline, he fell off a cliff. Likely because of the injury. It's two different things. 

Falling off a cliff is still technically a decline 😛

This is basically what DM84 and I were just discussing.  It's impossible to know if Cory would have played this terrible if he hadn't gotten injured, but I'm not going to sit here and excuse his performance solely because of that.  Of course it probably exacerbated it a bit, but to me what has happened to him is far beyond poor play resulting from a nagging injury.  The guy could've had his d1ck amputated and it wouldn't warrant the play that we've seen from him over the past year or two.  

Edited November 20, 2018 by NJDfan1711

[mfitz804]

40 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Falling off a cliff is still technically a decline 😛

This is basically what DM84 and I were just discussing.  It's impossible to know if Cory would have played this terrible if he hadn't gotten injured, but I'm not going to sit here and excuse his performance solely because of that.  Of course it probably exacerbated it a bit, but to me what has happened to him is far beyond poor play resulting from a nagging injury.  

I suppose it is, technically.

The truth of the matter is, we can debate all day long whether its injury related or not, or if its mental or not, or if its a combination of both or not, and we will never know. You have zero basis for knowing whether his injury "exacerbated it a bit" or if it is 100% responsible, or the extent to which his injury is or is not "nagging", etc. 

40 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

The guy could've had his d1ck amputated and it wouldn't warrant the play that we've seen from him over the past year or two.  

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by mfitz804

[NJDfan1711]

9 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

You have zero basis for knowing whether his injury "exacerbated it a bit" or if it is 100% responsible, or the extent to which his injury is or is not "nagging", etc. 

That's not exactly true. My basis for knowing whether or not his injury exacerbated his poor performance just a bit, rather than responsible for all of it, is from instances and goaltenders who have had this, or other injuries, in the past. 

This is just one example, but it's recent, and very much relevant and similar to Cory's situation, so I'll share the link:

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nhl/florida-panthers/article97563207.html

The same surgery for Luongo claims it's a 5 month process, and after a summer of recovery (the same as Schneider), he wasn't limited and they basically put him out there with full confidence that he could play well - even Luongo mentioned that he was happy and surprised with how quickly he progressed and made it through recovery.   Luongo is 39 years old, 7 years older than Cory, and he has a .918 save percentage and a 2.48 GAA. 

None of us are Cory so we can't feel exactly what he feels, but to say I have no basis for trying to determine to what extent the injury may have impacted his play isn't true at all.  I think it's perfectly acceptable and reasonable to draw conclusions based on similar events.  Maybe Cory's body just requires more time to heal, that's entirely possible, but to me that's way too easy of an excuse and frankly, without having the stats in front of me, I feel like his poor play started prior to his injury anyway.  

[mfitz804]

2 hours ago, NJDfan1711 said:

That's not exactly true. My basis for knowing whether or not his injury exacerbated his poor performance just a bit, rather than responsible for all of it, is from instances and goaltenders who have had this, or other injuries, in the past. 

This is just one example, but it's recent, and very much relevant and similar to Cory's situation, so I'll share the link:

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nhl/florida-panthers/article97563207.html

The same surgery for Luongo claims it's a 5 month process, and after a summer of recovery (the same as Schneider), he wasn't limited and they basically put him out there with full confidence that he could play well - even Luongo mentioned that he was happy and surprised with how quickly he progressed and made it through recovery.   Luongo is 39 years old, 7 years older than Cory, and he has a .918 save percentage and a 2.48 GAA. 

None of us are Cory so we can't feel exactly what he feels, but to say I have no basis for trying to determine to what extent the injury may have impacted his play isn't true at all.  I think it's perfectly acceptable and reasonable to draw conclusions based on similar events.  Maybe Cory's body just requires more time to heal, that's entirely possible, but to me that's way too easy of an excuse and frankly, without having the stats in front of me, I feel like his poor play started prior to his injury anyway.  

There's too many variables for that to be accurate, including:

1) Location of the labrum tear

2) Degree/severity of the labrum tear

3) The skill of the particular surgeon(s) involved in repairing the labrum tear

4) The skill of the therapist(s) providing care after the surgery and through rehab

5) The individual person's effort into rehab

6) The reaction of one person's body to injury can be completely different than another's

7) The shape each guy was in prior to the injury

All of the above being things you are not privy to. 

To say that its not related to the injury because other people didn't have that problem is short sighted. I've represented two different people who fractured the same three bones in their ankle, they are within 5 years of each other age-wise, one has walked with a limp ever since and had to quit their job, and the other just ran in the NYC Marathon. 

On top of that, its far more reasonable to believe that its because of injury than the alternative, which is that he suddenly started to suck or forgot how to goalie virtually overnight. 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by mfitz804

[NJDfan1711]

7 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

On top of that, its far more reasonable to believe that its because of injury than the alternative, which is that he suddenly started to suck or forgot how to goalie virtually overnight. 

 

That's fair, but Schneider isn't exactly a spring chicken, i.e. he's entering the stage of his career when some goalies aren't able to do things the way they used to.  So while he may not have forgotten "how to goalie" overnight, what we could be witnessing may very well be just signs of old age, and as someone else also mentioned, he was relegated to a backup role for a large part of his stint in Vancouver, so he wasn't exactly proven and time tested to be able to handle a night in and night out workload as true starter.  Even in the early stages here, he split time with Brodeur basically 50/50.  In all honesty, the more I think about it, has Schneider really and actually had decent numbers while shouldering a starting job on his own, outside of maybe one or two seasons (I'm thinking maybe 2015-2017?)…?

[titans04]

I don't think KK will have many options as a # 1 elsewhere, I just don't see it.  He's extremely valuable to us primarily because Cory stinks and has been injured.  He's a backup imo.