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Fire Hynes

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2 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

And no coach wins championships without great players. Period.

Except Mike Keenan. All the 94 Rags sucked. ūüėõ

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56 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

How good would Shero have been in Pitt without the talent that he had to work with?  And that's not to knock Shero, because even though some of his more recent "on paper" moves haven't worked out lately (MoJo, Grabner...I was in favor of both deals), I still have a lot of faith in him. 

Really hard to win without an impressive core, and some bona-fide stars.  But we've seen our fair share of really good teams that never ever get over the hump.  Quenneville managed to do it three times...not saying that he was the sole reason, and who knows, maybe there's another coach out there that could've gotten similar results...but the fact remains, he DID it.  I don't think too much should be taken away from him. 

 

 

Apples and oranges. A GM you can literally see all his moves and methods. A coach it's more up in the air of what he's really responsible for or not. If Kane goes on a rampage and deke out 3-4 guys and score... all the coach did was put him on the ice. 

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9 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Apples and oranges. A GM you can literally see all his moves and methods. A coach it's more up in the air of what he's really responsible for or not. If Kane goes on a rampage and deke out 3-4 guys and score... all the coach did was put him on the ice. 

Not really.  You want to praise Shero and give him credit for every last thing he does and will obviously defend him if anyone says anything remotely critical about him (or points out that he walked into a killer situation in Pittsburgh), and I get it because you like him a lot (and I think most Devils fans do as well).  But the fact is he did inherit a hell of a lot when he became the Pens' GM...to the point that I still think his legacy is going to be built here, because this situation was truly a big-time challenge from the start...and has been made even more so by the fact that one of the ONLY pieces that initially seemed like a relatively sure thing in Schneider has fallen to pieces.  Now Shero may have to address THAT weakness as well. 

My point remains that you need talent to win.  Shero was given a nice batch of it to start with when he became the Penguins' GM.  Quenneville had a lot of it to work with as the Blackhawks' HC.  But I give both of them credit for winning.  I don't think either guy was just along for the ride. 

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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Would rather see a trade shakeup than a coaching change. Trade someone relatively unexpected (MoJo, palmeiri,  Vatanen, lovejoy) and demote Schneider. That would send a big message that current performance is unacceptable. 

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34 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Not really.  You want to praise Shero and give him credit for every last thing he does and will obviously defend him if anyone says anything remotely critical about him (or points out that he walked into a killer situation in Pittsburgh), and I get it because you like him a lot (and I think most Devils fans do as well).  But the fact is he did inherit a hell of a lot when he became the Pens' GM...to the point that I still think his legacy is going to be built here, because this situation was truly a big-time challenge from the start...and has been made even more so by the fact that one of the ONLY pieces that initially seemed like a relatively sure thing in Schneider has fallen to pieces.  Now Shero may have to address THAT weakness as well. 

My point remains that you need talent to win.  Shero was given a nice batch of it to start with when he became the GM.  Quenneville had a lot of it to work with as the Blackhawks' HC.  But I give both of them credit for winning.  I don't think either guy was just along for the ride. 

Hahaha so clearly it looks like you have this that you needed to get off your chest and you're trying to work it in this conversation somehow

And you're wrong actually. I don't like Shero and praise him BECAUSE of any "team success" he had in Pittsburgh. I actually never even brought that up. You can look for it but it never happened. I liked him because of his methods/vision and how he handled his UFAs. Which has NOTHING to do with how good his core was when he got there. Hell I even said that it was unfair that he got fired from Pittsburgh cause on paper he did one hell of a job before the playoffs to put a good team on the ice but the players sh!t the bed. 

Never said or suggested that Q was bad but it's harder to see what a coach does with a very very talented group vs what happened in Vegas last year for example. It's not to say that a coach with good players doesn't deserve credits but it's undeniable that it's not as clear as to what he's responsible for or not. Which makes it a legitimate question.

The Pens made it to the finals 4 times from 2008 to 2015 (led by 3 different coaches) and won the cup 3 times. Disco Dan won the Jack Adams at some point in there. So what's the common factor here behind all that success? The Pens core, not the coach. Look at how Disco Dan did in Buffalo after. Eichel wouldnt even sign a long term deal with them if Dan was the coach.

Edited by SterioDesign

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20 minutes ago, Steadevils said:

Would rather see a trade shakeup than a coaching change. Trade someone relatively unexpected (MoJo, palmeiri,  Vatanen, lovejoy) and demote Schneider. That would send a big message that current performance is unacceptable. 

No way you trade Palms or Vatanen. The former is our leading goal scorer, and the latter is our best defenseman. 

Lovejoy is not bringing much back in return. Mojo is an interesting one, and honestly he’d probably be my pick if someone has to be moved. 

Edited by Nicomo
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21 minutes ago, Steadevils said:

Would rather see a trade shakeup than a coaching change. Trade someone relatively unexpected (MoJo, palmeiri,  Vatanen, lovejoy) and demote Schneider. That would send a big message that current performance is unacceptable. 

There's a huge difference between trading Vatanen and trading Lovejoy dude...

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1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

Hahaha so clearly it looks like you have this that you needed to get off your chest and you're trying to work it in this conversation somehow

And you're wrong actually. I don't like Shero and praise him BECAUSE of any "team success" he had in Pittsburgh. I actually never even brought that up. You can look for it but it never happened. I liked him because of his methods/vision and how he handled his UFAs. Which has NOTHING to do with how good his core was when he got there. Hell I even said that it was unfair that he got fired from Pittsburgh cause on paper he did one hell of a job before the playoffs to put a good team on the ice but the players sh!t the bed. 

Never said or suggested that Q was bad but it's harder to see what a coach does with a very very talented group vs what happened in Vegas last year for example. It's not to say that a coach with good players doesn't deserve credits but it's undeniable that it's not as clear as to what he's responsible for or not. Which makes it a legitimate question.

The Pens made it to the finals 4 times from 2008 to 2015 (led by 3 different coaches) and won the cup 3 times. Disco Dan won the Jack Adams at some point in there. So what's the common factor here behind all that success? The Pens core, not the coach. Look at how Disco Dan did in Buffalo after. Eichel wouldnt even sign a long term deal with them if Dan was the coach.

C'mon, the bolded is not even close to true.  Sometimes you can really be off-base man.  And when I said "like him a lot", I meant that you like his general MO and results (or what you interpret his MO and results to be).  Not like you've made that a secret. 

And like I said, yes, most of the time coaches need considerable talent to win...but we've also seen coaches that have talent, yet get in the way, or don't use it properly...not that they're to fully blame or praise when such teams win it all or fall well short, but at least some coaches manage to not fvck things up.  And as we've seen, not all coaches are an equally great fit everywhere (just like some players don't mesh with certain teams), for many reasons (talent that doesn't fit their MO, better with veterans, etc). 

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16 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

No way you trade Palms or Vatanen. The former is our leading goal scorer, and the latter is our best defenseman. 

Lovejoy is not bringing much back in return. Mojo is an interesting one, and honestly he’d probably be my pick if someone has to be moved. 

I don't think either is untouchable.  Vats is at best a #4 D-man on a good team and Palms should be considered if you get a great player in return.

Outside of Hischier and Smith, I don't really have much of an issue with everybody else being available.

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1 minute ago, Nicomo said:

No way you trade Palms or Vatanen. The former is our leading goal scorer, and the former is our best defenseman. 

Lovejoy is not bringing much back in return. Mojo is an interesting one, and honestly he’s be my pick if someone has to go. 

Severson has been our best defender this year in my opinion and you have to give something to get something. I actually don't want to pay Vatanen what he'll be asking for heading in to his year 30 season in 2020. I'd only trade Palms if the return also brought back offense. My thought process there is that he is at the peak of his value now off his early scoring purge. 

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Just now, DevsMan84 said:

I don't think either is untouchable.  Vats is at best a #4 D-man on a good team and Palms should be considered if you get a great player in return.

Outside of Hischier and Smith, I don't really have much of an issue with everybody else being available.

That's dramatic hyperbole, even for you. 

You cannot name ninety fvcking NHL defenseman better than Sami Vatenen. 

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12 minutes ago, DJ Eco said:

There's a huge difference between trading Vatanen and trading Lovejoy dude...

Included Lovejoy because trading a well liked veteran would send a message.

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1 minute ago, Kinkyisth3b3st said:

That's dramatic hyperbole, even for you. 

You cannot name ninety fvcking NHL defenseman better than Sami Vatenen. 

He is vastly overrated by our fanbase largely because he is much better than the 6-7 guys below him on our defense depth chart.

I also said at best #4 D-man on a good team (I should clarified by a team with good D).  Teams like Nashville, Philly, Tampa, San Jose, etc.  There is a reason why Vats was the odd man out in Anaheim as he got pushed further down on their depth chart.

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1 hour ago, Nicomo said:

Except Mike Keenan. All the Rags ever sucked. ūüėõ

Fixed it. 

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4 minutes ago, Kinkyisth3b3st said:

That's dramatic hyperbole, even for you. 

You cannot name ninety fvcking NHL defenseman better than Sami Vatenen. 

I couldn't name 90 defensemen period. I'd have to start sticking fake names like "Oliver Klozov" in there to complete the list. 

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14 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

C'mon, the bolded is not even close to true.  Sometimes you can really be off-base man.  And when I said "like him a lot", I meant that you like his general MO and results (or what you interpret his MO and results to be).  Not like you've made that a secret. 

And like I said, yes, most of the time coaches need considerable talent to win...but we've also seen coaches that have talent, yet get in the way, or don't use it properly...not that they're to fully blame or praise when such teams win it all or fall well short, but at least some coaches manage to not fvck things up.  And as we've seen, not all coaches are an equally great fit everywhere (just like some players don't mesh with certain teams), for many reasons (talent that doesn't fit their MO, better with veterans, etc). 

then why even bring up the whole "You want to praise Shero and give him credit for every last thing he does and will obviously defend him if anyone says anything remotely critical about him"

That had NOTHING, NOTHING to do with Quenneville lol 

Why not use Hynes as an example? i've been defending him quite and a bit and a coach to coach comparison makes more sense. You "worked" the Shero thing in there for sure haha

Edited by SterioDesign

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Just now, DevsMan84 said:

He is vastly overrated by our fanbase largely because he is much better than the 6-7 guys below him on our defense depth chart.

I also said at best #4 D-man on a good team (I should clarified by a team with good D).  Teams like Nashville, Philly, Tampa, San Jose, etc.  There is a reason why Vats was the odd man out in Anaheim as he got pushed further down on their depth chart.

If he's at-best #4 on a good team that means you think there are 93 defenseman better than he is. 

I think that's stupid. 

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10 minutes ago, Kinkyisth3b3st said:

If he's at-best #4 on a good team that means you think there are 93 defenseman better than he is. 

I think that's stupid. 

Can't you guys just go check out his rating on NHL19 and call it a day? The golden truth is right there for the taking lol

He's ranked #53 on dailyfaceoffs though for what it's worth lol #31 RD

 

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21 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I don't think either is untouchable.  Vats is at best a #4 D-man on a good team and Palms should be considered if you get a great player in return.

Outside of Hischier and Smith, I don't really have much of an issue with everybody else being available.

Vatanen is one of maybe 2 players the Devils have that isn’t completely terrible on the back end (Severson being the other). I’m not really worried where he’d be on a handful of other teams. On this team he’s extremely valuable, and I don’t see getting enough of a return to make trading him worthwhile. 

And you wouldn’t have an issue trading the reigning Hart Trophy winner? He’s only 27, he should be part of this team’s plans going forward, imo. The only reason i could see trading him is if there’s no chance of re-signing after next year. Which I don’t believe to be the case.

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15 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

then why even bring up the whole "You want to praise Shero and give him credit for every last thing he does and will obviously defend him if anyone says anything remotely critical about him"

That had NOTHING, NOTHING to do with Quenneville lol 

Why not use Hynes as an example? i've been defending him quite and a bit and a coach to coach comparison makes more sense. You "worked" the Shero thing in there for sure haha

I already said why I made the comparison.  Both guys had a lot of talent at their disposal, and in both cases, some choose to tone down their impacts on their teams due to that fact.  Hynes isn't a good example because he doesn't have anywhere near the talent that Q did on his teams.  Hynes is also still kind of a newbie as an NHL HC, where Q has been around for quite some time. 

I think this was an evaluation year for Hynes as well as the players, and though I think it's easy to blame the HC right away, there's enough going on that I'm not sure he's the guy who should be trying to take his team to the next level.  Though I think he's tried to hold players accountable, it's really baffling to me why Greene seems to be untouchable...I'm guessing it's because there's no obvious replacement for him, but how much more does he get to not only be bad, but get treated as though he isn't?

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31 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

He is vastly overrated by our fanbase largely because he is much better than the 6-7 guys below him on our defense depth chart.

I also said at best #4 D-man on a good team (I should clarified by a team with good D).  Teams like Nashville, Philly, Tampa, San Jose, etc.  There is a reason why Vats was the odd man out in Anaheim as he got pushed further down on their depth chart.

The reason Vats was traded wasn't so much he was being pushed down the depth chart and he's some scrub d-man.  Are you forgetting we gave them a good asset in return?  We needed something, and they needed something.   We got a good defender and they got a good forward.   That trade was pretty fair, and both players were/are pretty damn good. 

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6 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I already said why I made the comparison.  Both guys had a lot of talent at their disposal, and in both cases, some choose to tone down their impacts on their teams due to that fact.  Hynes isn't a good example because he doesn't have anywhere near the talent that Q did on his teams.  Hynes is also still kind of a newbie as an NHL HC, where Q has been around for quite some time. 

I think this was an evaluation year for Hynes as well as the players, and though I think it's easy to blame the HC right away, there's enough going on that I'm not sure he's the guy who should be trying to take his team to the next level.  Though I think he's tried to hold players accountable, it's really baffling to me why Greene seems to be untouchable...I'm guessing it's because there's no obvious replacement for him, but how much more does he get to not only be bad, but get treated as though he isn't?

Still, why bring up the "You want to praise Shero and give him credit for every last thing he does and will obviously defend him if anyone says anything remotely critical about him" ? 

Edited by SterioDesign

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Vatanen is a clear-cut top line defenseman being saddled down and held back by a poor supporting cast. His stretch passes, his rushes into the zone, some of the plays he's able to create, the quality and placement of shots he gets on net begging for deflections (occasionally getting them, but not nearly often enough considering the shot quality), elite tenacity and fitness, he's a great player. He averages 23+ minutes a game and over 2 shots on goal per game.

Ducks didn't find him expendable, that's rewriting history. Their fans were upset that he was let go and still are, but they needed to give something to get something like the old cliche says; and they needed center depth. He's a 2nd line defenseman on maybe 2-3 teams in the league as superhumanly stocked at D as Anaheim or Nashville are, but he's a top-liner on most teams in the league.

I won't trade the 27 year old Sami Vatanen for anything, I don't think there are too many returns that justify giving away what he means to this defensively fragile team.

Edited by DJ Eco
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27 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

The reason Vats was traded wasn't so much he was being pushed down the depth chart and he's some scrub d-man.  Are you forgetting we gave them a good asset in return?  We needed something, and they needed something.   We got a good defender and they got a good forward.   That trade was pretty fair, and both players were/are pretty damn good. 

Yeah, we gave them a guy who got pushed down on our forward depth chart last season.

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17 minutes ago, DJ Eco said:

Vatanen is a clear-cut top line defenseman being saddled down and held back by a poor supporting cast. His stretch passes, his rushes into the zone, some of the plays he's able to create, the quality and placement of shots he gets on net begging for deflections (occasionally getting them, but not nearly often enough considering the shot quality), elite tenacity and fitness, he's a great player. He averages 23+ minutes a game and over 2 shots on goal per game.

Ducks didn't find him expendable, that's rewriting history. Their fans were upset that he was let go and still are, but they needed to give something to get something like the old cliche says; and they needed center depth. He's a 2nd line defenseman on maybe 2-3 teams in the league as superhumanly stocked at D as Anaheim or Nashville are, but he's a top-liner on most teams in the league.

I won't trade the 27 year old Sami Vatanen for anything, I don't think there are too many returns that justify giving away what he means to this defensively fragile team.

2nd line defenseman so he is at best #3 D-man.  Is saying a #3 D-man is that valuable to where he is untouchable good for our long-term goals?

33 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Vatanen is one of maybe 2 players the Devils have that isn’t completely terrible on the back end (Severson being the other). I’m not really worried where he’d be on a handful of other teams. On this team he’s extremely valuable, and I don’t see getting enough of a return to make trading him worthwhile. 

And you wouldn’t have an issue trading the reigning Hart Trophy winner? He’s only 27, he should be part of this team’s plans going forward, imo. The only reason i could see trading him is if there’s no chance of re-signing after next year. Which I don’t believe to be the case.

He also may leave us in 2 years with us getting absolutely nothing in return.  I am not saying he is Parise 2.0 in waiting, but he isn't untouchable, especially if it looks like the chances of re-signing him are slim.

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