GDT: Toronna vs Your New Jersey Devils - 12/18/2018 @ 7:00PM

[Devil Dan 56]

1 hour ago, Steadevils said:

This is why the upcoming Hall contract is so interesting. No one wants to lose hall, but would trading him for a massive return that is more in-line age wise with the bratt, hischier, ty smith (maybe boqvist) group make sense? Or would signing hall be like our version of Toronto signing Tavares? I lean towards Hall being our version of a big FA signing just because attracting outside talent to NJ is harder than it is for a team like Toronto.  Unfortunately Hall carries a lot of the cards in the upcoming negotiations, so the decision to re-sign or be traded will likely be made mostly by Hall himself (I am not even entertaining the option of losing Hall in FA for nothing. Not willing to put myself in that mental hellscape.)

Another interesting scenario is:

 

 Let's say Hall hasn't signed yet and we are coming up to next year's trade deadline. This is hypothetical, but say the team is like the 4-5 seed. If you trade Hall, you trade away the leader for a lot of these kids, plus you send them and the fans the message that you're punting another season and setting the rebuild back another couple of years. Its truly going to be a decision that will affect the franchise for a very long time. I like Shero and I'm confident he signs Hall this summer, but man I do not envy him at all

 

[DevsMan84]

Maples Leafs 7-2

[Devil Dan 56]

Just now, DevsMan84 said:

Maples Leafs 7-2

 

[NJDevils1214]

2 hours ago, Nicomo said:

Good piece, but Jesus that comment section...

 That is the majority of our fan base that I can't stand. 

[Devs1965]

What I would give to see one of our players play like #4 right now!

[Devil Dan 56]

Sadly, Stevens was a once in a lifetime, large than life character. I consider him one of the greatest captains of his era. The NHL and NY media can continue to cram Mark "Misty Eyes" Messier down our throat all they want, I still think Stevens was the man. 

[slasher72]

6 hours ago, Lateralous said:

I wasn't saying the Schneider deal was a bad trade, I was simply stating a fact that the current '18-'19 team has received absolutely no benefit from having gone into that draft with the 9th overall pick which is part of the reason why we are where we are.   

The is probably for another thread but I absolutely blame Lou for '12 and  '14.  '12 wasn't an exceptionally deep draft and at the time I hated that we didn't give up the pick.  It seemed like an arrogant move and the problem was compounded by still having Conte in his position despite sucking at his job for the better part of a decade.  Our position in '14 was a by-product of '12 AND Conte was still in charge of the draft despite two more years of no results.  That absolutely on the GM

To your point, yes, if absolutely done right and you get a little luck along the way, you're correct that a rebuild shouldn't take 9 years but for most teams it does.  As bad as the Leafs did at the start of there's, they still at least had guys like Kadri, Reilly and Nylander in the system before they really decided to burn it down and commit fully to rebuilding.   I think if you consider our rebuild having started after we lost Parise and Kovy in back to back seasons, it will probably take us close to 9 years, given that the first few years of our rebuild were essentially squandered.  Ray walked into a situation where he didn't even have much to show for the previous several years of poor team results, which was kind of my original point.  The lack of high end young assets in the organization was embarrassing even two years ago.   We're trending in the right direction with guys like Bratt, Hischier and hopefully Ty Smith but there are just so many holes to fill that this is unfortunately going to take a few more years.    

I just can't wait for the combination of Lou / Conte to start imploding the Islanders, lol. It's bound to happen sooner or later. 

[SterioDesign]

9 hours ago, devlman said:

1. Rebuilding in my book ends when a team once again becomes competitive. It does not not extend all the way into becoming a cup contender and also does not include failing to advance far in the playoffs. So a couple of your examples like the Blues and Flames, they are not examples of rebuilding - They’ve been retooling for years and playoff contenders for years. Calgary fans had been in a limbo because they’ve been quasi competitive instead of blowing up the team.

A period of rebuilding is when a team is not competitive. So, making the playoffs consistently has ended the phase. Even with Lou setting us back, it shouldn’t take a decade to once again become a consistent playoff team, especially after having the fortune of winning the lottery.

2. You say “Rebuilds can easily take a decade”. Sure they can if mismanaged. Which is why I never said they couldn’t take a decade, and why I said they shouldn’t. Chicago and Toronto’s droughts should not be the examples to follow. The former had horrendous ownership and Toronto we already discussed. The coyotes have been woefully mismanaged and under resourced for years. Our rebuild should not take as long as. If it does, then we’ve made some serious errors along the way.

This discussion is an exercise of rebuild definitions, with acceptable standards and expectations for it. It is possible I’m being impatient but my team has not taken a step in the right direction this year so that sucks. Hopefully your home town team (the Habs, Rimouski Oceanic or whoever) is faring better. But a decade to be a consistent playoff team is a failure. The extremes you have picked out are examples of doing it poorly. No matter how poorly a team does a rebuild though, they will eventually draft talent, so using the extremes as examples isn’t a good argument for acceptable standards.

Rebuilds doesnt take decades only if they are mismanaged. young draft pick not reaching their potential, injuries, bad luck, many things can happen. 

And again, you STILL havent told me or given me any examples of how you get from the team we had in 2015... with no assets or young talent and become competitive... considering you need to fill about 80% of your roster and that youre not an attractive destination and that draft players can take 2-3 years or more before they make the NHL, if they do make it. So how fast do you think that process can go realistically? You keep ignoring that simple question

And i didnt give you just bad examples, i gave you some of the BEST examples which is pittsburgh, which took 6 years and it took them to draft the best players in the world and other top players to make that happen, i even gave you an example of how badly it would have went for pittsburgh say they would have drafted one draft position down or up. 

I can only assume but it's like you're not looking at the whole picture and understanding what it takes to go your way to rebuild. Just the assumption that you need to make mistakes for a rebuild to take awhile is flawed. Just drafting the wrong player can set yourself back considerably.

Also i don't live in Quebec so Habs, Rimouski or wtv are like 10 hours from my place, not even close lol

Edited December 20, 2018 by SterioDesign

[devlman]

33 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Rebuilds doesnt take decades only if they are mismanaged. young draft pick not reaching their potential, injuries, bad luck, many things can happen. 

And again, you STILL havent told me or given me any examples of how you get from the team we had in 2015... with no assets or young talent and become competitive... considering you need to fill about 80% of your roster and that youre not an attractive destination and that draft players can take 2-3 years or more before they make the NHL, if they do make it. So how fast do you think that process can go realistically? You keep ignoring that simple question

And i didnt give you just bad examples, i gave you some of the BEST examples which is pittsburgh, which took 6 years and it took them to draft the best players in the world and other top players to make that happen, i even gave you an example of how badly it would have went for pittsburgh say they would have drafted one draft position down or up. 

I can only assume but it's like you're not looking at the whole picture and understanding what it takes to go your way to rebuild. Just the assumption that you need to make mistakes for a rebuild to take awhile is flawed. Just drafting the wrong player can set yourself back considerably.

Also i don't live in Quebec so Habs, Rimouski or wtv are like 10 hours from my place, not even close lol

Why do I have to lay out a framework of drafting and signings/trades with player development from 2015 onwards? Lol. No idea where this conversation turned into this exercise. You’re arguing with people in your head and the semantics of what is a rebuild isn’t getting through. Pittsburgh 6 years to become a consistent playoff team and were horrible for those years..why would you want to replicate that if avoidable? Raise your standards and don’t settle for mediocrity and what others have done.. anyway, 6 < 9. Case closed. And I disagree that we are an undesirable location. Don’t know what else to tell you but you’re off arguing something else I’m not. 9 years to become a playoff team is absurd and should not be the standard operating model a club should accept. I bet you Shero and ownership wouldn’t be satisfied with that timeline.

And btw, if things like Zacha and Schneider broke in our favor this year we’d all be signaling that the rebuild was nearing a completion w a second straight playoff spot secured. So it’s very possible to do it under 9 years and without tanking every year.

Edited December 20, 2018 by devlman

[devlman]

3 hours ago, Kinkyisth3b3st said:

I was blissfully ignorant to the fact that there was a game last night. I went to this new TopGolf that opened up near me (recommend it to everyone, golfer or non golfer). I forgot the game was on. When I got in the car I checked the score and let out a nice, long “wooooooow”. 

Im not bragging but it’s almost relaxing to have the bar for the team set this low. I forgot how easy 2016 was. 

I actually told myself that I’d take the Columbus game off and not even watch. No other plans, just save myself the stress of watching their garbage hockey. The weight lifted off my shoulders felt so liberating and free that it feels like a vacation.

[SterioDesign]

4 minutes ago, devlman said:

Why do I have to lay out a framework of drafting and signings/trades with player development from 2015 onwards? Lol. No idea where this conversation turned into this exercise. You’re arguing with people in your head and the semantics of what is a rebuild isn’t getting through. Pittsburgh 6 years to become a consistent playoff team and were horrible for those years..why would you want to replicate that if avoidable? Raise your standards.. anyway, 6 < 9. Case closed. And I disagree that we are an undesirable location. Don’t know what else to tell you but you’re off arguing something else I’m not. 9 years to become a playoff team is absurd and should not be the standard operating model a club should accept. I bet you Shero and ownership wouldn’t be satisfied with that timeline.

Why? Cause it's an exercise to see the big picture, to understand the need and understand that you can only add a few pieces every season (which may only be ready 3-4 seasons later), if you're missing say 12 pieces and have NO pieces in your back pocket... you don't get that done in 3 years, it's just common sense. You're just throwing a broad statement that "this is too long and unacceptable", ignoring the state of the team. It's like saying "taking 2 hours to shovel your driveway is way too long, you're not doing it right... when you have no idea how long is the driveway lol 

 

[devlman]

27 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Why? Cause it's an exercise to see the big picture, to understand the need and understand that you can only add a few pieces every season (which may only be ready 3-4 seasons later), if you're missing say 12 pieces and have NO pieces in your back pocket... you don't get that done in 3 years, it's just common sense. You're just throwing a broad statement that "this is too long and unacceptable", ignoring the state of the team. It's like saying "taking 2 hours to shovel your driveway is way too long, you're not doing it right... when you have no idea how long is the driveway lol 

 

The bottom line is that yes, it can take a decade, but that is if you are mismanaging player development, drafting poorly, and making poor deals. I know the driveway ain’t four miles long.

[mfitz804]

56 minutes ago, Kinkyisth3b3st said:

I’ll be in New Jersey for the first time since 2016. My dad got me tickets to the game.

in the card, he just wrote “merry Christmas. Sorry.”

That’s amazing. 

Lock up your Taylor Hall, Kinky’s back in town. 

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by mfitz804