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GDT: Toronna vs Your New Jersey Devils - 12/18/2018 @ 7:00PM

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1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

Do you guys realize how the Leafs got so good? They drafted Schenn 5th overall (which they traded for 2nd overall van riemsdyk), Rielly 5th overall, Marner 4th overall, Kadri 7th overall, Nylander 8th overall, Matthews 1st overall.

Since 2006, they missed the playoffs 10 times and NEVER won a playoffs series. It took 9 years to draft their core. With that core, they were able to attract a coach like Babcock and players like Tavares (1st overall) and Marleau.

We started from almost NOTHING 3-4 years ago and only had someone who knew something about drafting for 2 years. 

It's. going. to. take. time. 

Meanwhile the legacy of our recent first round picks before Conte was finally jettisoned and Lou had the organization wrestled away from his iron grip....

 

 

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26 minutes ago, slasher72 said:

That C Toe is a work of art

 

HOF worthy imo. 

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51 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

He’s definitely not been playing as well as last season. But he still gives you occasional games like against Nashville, or the 3 shutouts he’s had this season. I think he’d be fine if there was someone who could split starts with him. He just shouldn’t be counted on to be a #1 starter. 

4 or more in 7 of his last 9 games. That's hard to defend. But yeah I agree he's being asked to do way too much. 

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9 minutes ago, mikepeluso8 said:

where does it end?

Hopefully right here...

68747470733a2f2f73332e616d617a6f6e617773

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I just want to point out that if the season were to have ended today our team GAA would be 3.6875. Just for reference's sake, the last time we were over 3.00 GAA (although we've skirted very near to it the last two seasons) was in 1993 and the last time we gave up goals at a higher rate than we have this season was 1989. This is looking to be a historically bad season.

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3 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

i didnt say that it should take 9 years, there's no exact number, depends on soooo many factors. I said that theirs took 9 years of drafting. And we were in worst shape than they were before those 9 years. So how would you make it faster?

I don’t agree we are in worse shape than they were. They had bloated contracts, didn’t have an MVP and lots of of young players. I think they also owed Boston a couple picks. But anyway you’re continuing to imply it’s going to take longer than 9 years for us to rebuild and that would be completely nuts and unacceptable.

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2 hours ago, Lateralous said:

Well, towards the end of the Lou/Conte era, we were, which really has us behind the 8 ball now.      

2012 - Lou insisted on keeping our first despite it being 29th overall and picks a grinder in Matteau.  Current team getting no benefit from this pick.  

2013 - traded the 9th overall pick for Schneider.  It was a nice trade at the time but it’s safe to say the 2018 team is not benefitting from it.  It’s actually a detriment 

2014 - instead of getting the 13th overall pick, we select 30th due to Lou not giving up 29 in ‘12.  We take Quenneville who may become a middle 6 player but not doing much for the current roster.  

2015 - I remember Zacha, Barzal and Rantanen being the three names thrown around for our pick mainly because it was thought we were set on D with Larsson, Severson, Merrill and Gelinas.  If they literally take either of the two other forwards or one of the D taken with the following two picks, things certainly look a lot brighter.

We also got a little unlucky in 2016 that Chychrun fell so badly and there was a run on forwards before our pick.   

 

I’m not faulting Lou for 2012-2014. The league imposed that unfair penalty on him and then gave it back sometime later. It’s tough to plan accordingly. He did what he had to do at the time. Schneider deal you do again. No one could’ve predicted his rapid decline.  We all loved it at the time. You can’t go back now and say how horrible Lou was for making it. Doesn’t work like that.

Blame Conte if you want. I sure do. Rebuilds shouldn’t take a decade though.

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Id like to see Santani get in a game and fvckin hit someone. This D is fvckin soft,  Get me Capt Krunch Stevens on the phone. straighten this sh!t out. lol

Much Needed..........................

 TdcIES.gif

Edited by Gunslinger27

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16 minutes ago, devlman said:

I don’t agree we are in worse shape than they were. They had bloated contracts, didn’t have an MVP and lots of of young players. I think they also owed Boston a couple picks. But anyway you’re continuing to imply it’s going to take longer than 9 years for us to rebuild and that would be completely nuts and unacceptable.

2

Dude, seriously what's wrong with your reading comprehension? lol

Here's my quote where im LITERALLY saying that i didn't say it SHOULD take 9 years and that there's no exact number... Then you go and say that im "continuing to imply it’s going to take longer than 9 years for us to rebuild"...

Quote

"i didnt say that it should take 9 years, there's no exact number, depends on soooo many factors. I said that theirs took 9 years of drafting. And we were in worst shape than they were before those 9 years. So how would you make it faster?"

Then I said we were in worst shape in 2015, i listed the whole. fvcking. team. name. by. name in my previous post......... and yet you reply that you don't agree that were in worst shape cause we have a MVP and lots of young players..... No. We certainly didn't have young players and an MVP in 2015 and i never talked about this year's team.

Edited by SterioDesign

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You kept referring to the Maple Leafs requiring 9 years and how we started our rebuild in 2015 in a worse state than they were in 9 years ago. I think you’re tripping yourself up with your words buddy. I don’t think we understand language the same and I honestly don’t care, my team sucks really bad right now, so I’m gonna pass on continuing this. If you say it doesn’t take that long to rebuild then great, we agree. My team still sucks which pisses me off.

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1 hour ago, devlman said:

Blame Conte if you want. I sure do. Rebuilds shouldn’t take a decade though.

 

You keep saying that you don't agree and that something shouldn't take a specific amount of time. But you give no explanations or tell us what's acceptable for you and how you can achieve that. You can't put a # on how long a rebuild will take, it fully depends on what you have on your team already, contracts, luck, who you can sign, if your pick develops well etc etc

Rebuilds can EASILY take a decade, just look around the league. Chicago went 11 seasons between 1997 and 2009 until they win a playoffs round, and it took them to draft a few studs.

Oilers went from 2007 til 2017 until they win a round, and they still suck now, 11 years later.

St-Louis peaked at winning 2 rounds and won 4 rounds through the last 14 seasons.

Calgary won 1 playoffs round in the last 13 years.

Toronto took 9 years of drafting to build the team they have now and even more.

The coyotes won 2 playoffs round in their WHOLE HISTORY, that's 21 seasons.

i could go on and on.

Pittsburgh took 6 years and they had to draft the best player in the world, Whitney, Malkin, Staal, Fleury in those years... So it's fair to say that if pittsburgh is the most succesful rebuild and that it took drafting players of that caliber... that other teams drafting lesser players would probably take a bit more than 6 years. Unless you're retooling instead of truly rebuilding.

Also fun exercise, just tweak all those draft picks by one position for Pittsburgh... and instead of Fleury, Malkin, Crosby and Staal... They would have ended up with Eric Staal, Cam Barker, Bobby Ryan and Erik Johnson....... decent team but they are not winning a cup with that.

I get being frustrated and impatient. But common sense still need to apply at some point lol we're not guaranteed to have a successful team in any number of seasons. We'll need many many things to align the right way for that and there's things you just can't control

Edited by SterioDesign

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Add Columbus to that list. 18 years and counting, and they’re still waiting on their first playoff series win. Granted, they were an expansion team, but they didn’t start winning consistently until they finally got a good GM in Jarmo Kekäläinen. He’s been there 5 years and they still haven’t made it out of the first round. There’s just no guarantees with this stuff. 

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7 hours ago, SS-SS said:

Not gonna sit here and pretend I know what should be done...but what I know is that something needs to be done. We are putting a product that is not even slightly competitive on the ice.

It seems we're getting mauled an awful lot this year. Can't even remember how many times we've conceded 4 or 5 goals this year. This is truly pathetic.

I get that we're in reconstruction and all, but we can't keep winning one game and then show up for the next 4 or 5 games with absolutely nothing. I've come to peace with not making the playoff for more than a couple of years in order for the club to be reconstructed the proper way, but there's no excuse to not showing up to games the way we are. 

NHL teams seem to have no patience when things are not going well.  Witness all the firings in the first 2 months of the season.  It cannot keep going like it is here; a shaking up seems to be necessary. Otherwise, a losing team culture continues and expands.  Then absolutely no one will want to come here.  Then where are we?

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8 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

lol how? Please tell me systematically how you expect to take the 2015 team... with no prospects or anything... and make it a contender faster than we are now?

The only way is to magically sign every single top free agents over a few years at a bargain deal. Is that what you expect? 

Cammalleri - Henrique - Jagr

Elias - Zajac - Ruutu

Ryder - Gomez - Zubrus

Havlat - Josefson - Gionta

Next in line: Tootoo - Bernier (top prospect = Reid Boucher)

Greene - Salvador

Larsson - Gelinas

Severson - Zidlicky

Next in line: Harrold - Merril

Schneider / Kinkaid

Here's the scary part, if Lou was still here he would still be putting a team like this on the ice with the same "stay the course" explanation to the press and drafting first-rounders like Josefson, Tedenby, Matteau, and Zacha. 

So...I guess things could be worse. Lol.

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6 hours ago, Gunslinger27 said:

Id like to see Santani get in a game and fvckin hit someone. This D is fvckin soft,  Get me Capt Krunch Stevens on the phone. straighten this sh!t out. lol

Much Needed..........................

 TdcIES.gif

Didn’t you see Lovejoy hit Kinkaid? 

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  • Haha 3

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On 12/19/2018 at 2:16 AM, devlman said:

I’m not faulting Lou for 2012-2014. The league imposed that unfair penalty on him and then gave it back sometime later. It’s tough to plan accordingly. He did what he had to do at the time. Schneider deal you do again. No one could’ve predicted his rapid decline.  We all loved it at the time. You can’t go back now and say how horrible Lou was for making it. Doesn’t work like that.

Blame Conte if you want. I sure do. Rebuilds shouldn’t take a decade though.

I wasn't saying the Schneider deal was a bad trade, I was simply stating a fact that the current '18-'19 team has received absolutely no benefit from having gone into that draft with the 9th overall pick which is part of the reason why we are where we are.   

This is probably for another thread but I absolutely blame Lou for '12 and  '14.  '12 wasn't an exceptionally deep draft and at the time I hated that we didn't give up the pick.  It seemed like an arrogant move and the problem was compounded by still having Conte in his position despite sucking at his job for the better part of a decade.  Our position in '14 was a by-product of '12 AND Conte was still in charge of the draft despite two more years of no results.  That's absolutely on the GM

To your point, yes, if absolutely done right and you get a little luck along the way, you're correct that a rebuild shouldn't take 9 years but for most teams it does.  As bad as the Leafs did at the start of there's, they still at least had guys like Kadri, Reilly and Nylander in the system before they really decided to burn it down and commit fully to rebuilding.   I think if you consider our rebuild having started after we lost Parise and Kovy in back to back seasons, it will probably take us close to 9 years, given that the first few years of our rebuild were essentially squandered.  Ray walked into a situation where he didn't even have much to show for the previous several years of poor team results, which was kind of my original point.  The lack of high end young assets in the organization was embarrassing even two years ago.   We're trending in the right direction with guys like Bratt, Hischier and hopefully Ty Smith but there are just so many holes to fill that this is unfortunately going to take a few more years.    

Edited by Lateralous
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8 minutes ago, Lateralous said:

I wasn't saying the Schneider deal was a bad trade, I was simply stating a fact that the current '18-'19 team has received absolutely no benefit from having gone into that draft with the 9th overall pick which is part of the reason why we are where we are.   

The is probably for another thread but I absolutely blame Lou for '12 and  '14.  '12 wasn't an exceptionally deep draft and at the time I hated that we didn't give up the pick.  It seemed like an arrogant move and the problem was compounded by still having Conte in his position despite sucking at his job for the better part of a decade.  Our position in '14 was a by-product of '12 AND Conte was still in charge of the draft despite two more years of no results.  That absolutely on the GM

To your point, yes, if absolutely done right and you get a little luck along the way, you're correct that a rebuild shouldn't take 9 years but for most teams it does.  As bad as the Leafs did at the start of there's, they still at least had guys like Kadri, Reilly and Nylander in the system before they really decided to burn it down and commit fully to rebuilding.   I think if you consider our rebuild having started after we lost Parise and Kovy in back to back seasons, it will probably take us close to 9 years, given that the first few years of our rebuild were essentially squandered.  Ray walked into a situation where he didn't even have much to show for the previous several years of poor team results, which was kind of my original point.  The lack of high end young assets in the organization was embarrassing even two years ago.   We're trending in the right direction with guys like Bratt, Hischier and hopefully Ty Smith but there are just so many holes to fill that this is unfortunately going to take a few more years.    

This is why the upcoming Hall contract is so interesting. No one wants to lose hall, but would trading him for a massive return that is more in-line age wise with the bratt, hischier, ty smith (maybe boqvist) group make sense? Or would signing hall be like our version of Toronto signing Tavares? I lean towards Hall being our version of a big FA signing just because attracting outside talent to NJ is harder than it is for a team like Toronto.  Unfortunately Hall carries a lot of the cards in the upcoming negotiations, so the decision to re-sign or be traded will likely be made mostly by Hall himself (I am not even entertaining the option of losing Hall in FA for nothing. Not willing to put myself in that mental hellscape.)

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You know, last year really sucked me back in and I probably watched at least 75 games from pre-game to post-game. Like, actually watched and didn't have on in the background while I did other stuff.

But I've got to say this year's team is really pushing me back to how I was in years prior when the team was terrible. It's just not fun watching this team at this point, and I'll probably stop going out of my way to plan around watching most games. Let alone spending a ton of money to attend games.

Ah well, trust the process I guess.

Edited by Devilsfan118

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8 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

You keep saying that you don't agree and that something shouldn't take a specific amount of time. But you give no explanations or tell us what's acceptable for you and how you can achieve that. You can't put a # on how long a rebuild will take, it fully depends on what you have on your team already, contracts, luck, who you can sign, if your pick develops well etc etc

Rebuilds can EASILY take a decade, just look around the league. Chicago went 11 seasons between 1997 and 2009 until they win a playoffs round, and it took them to draft a few studs.

Oilers went from 2007 til 2017 until they win a round, and they still suck now, 11 years later.

St-Louis peaked at winning 2 rounds and won 4 rounds through the last 14 seasons.

Calgary won 1 playoffs round in the last 13 years.

Toronto took 9 years of drafting to build the team they have now and even more.

The coyotes won 2 playoffs round in their WHOLE HISTORY, that's 21 seasons.

i could go on and on.

Pittsburgh took 6 years and they had to draft the best player in the world, Whitney, Malkin, Staal, Fleury in those years... So it's fair to say that if pittsburgh is the most succesful rebuild and that it took drafting players of that caliber... that other teams drafting lesser players would probably take a bit more than 6 years. Unless you're retooling instead of truly rebuilding.

Also fun exercise, just tweak all those draft picks by one position for Pittsburgh... and instead of Fleury, Malkin, Crosby and Staal... They would have ended up with Eric Staal, Cam Barker, Bobby Ryan and Erik Johnson....... decent team but they are not winning a cup with that.

I get being frustrated and impatient. But common sense still need to apply at some point lol we're not guaranteed to have a successful team in any number of seasons. We'll need many many things to align the right way for that and there's things you just can't control

1. Rebuilding in my book ends when a team once again becomes competitive. It does not not extend all the way into becoming a cup contender and also does not include failing to advance far in the playoffs. So a couple of your examples like the Blues and Flames, they are not examples of rebuilding - They’ve been retooling for years and playoff contenders for years. Calgary fans had been in a limbo because they’ve been quasi competitive instead of blowing up the team.

A period of rebuilding is when a team is not competitive. So, making the playoffs consistently has ended the phase. Even with Lou setting us back, it shouldn’t take a decade to once again become a consistent playoff team, especially after having the fortune of winning the lottery.

2. You say “Rebuilds can easily take a decade”. Sure they can if mismanaged. Which is why I never said they couldn’t take a decade, and why I said they shouldn’t. Chicago and Toronto’s droughts should not be the examples to follow. The former had horrendous ownership and Toronto we already discussed. The coyotes have been woefully mismanaged and under resourced for years. Our rebuild should not take as long as. If it does, then we’ve made some serious errors along the way.

This discussion is an exercise of rebuild definitions, with acceptable standards and expectations for it. It is possible I’m being impatient but my team has not taken a step in the right direction this year so that sucks. Hopefully your home town team (the Habs, Rimouski Oceanic or whoever) is faring better. But a decade to be a consistent playoff team is a failure. The extremes you have picked out are examples of doing it poorly. No matter how poorly a team does a rebuild though, they will eventually draft talent, so using the extremes as examples isn’t a good argument for acceptable standards.

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