2019 New York Mets Season Thread

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

43 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

*if you're a player protected by the union and arbitrators who care nothing about the sport

The message to managers and GM's is clear though, you all gotta be on top of this **** and come down on people doing it more than being passively agressive like busting a monitor.  Make no mistake, the message isn't so much don't cheat as it is don't institutionalize cheating.

Perfect response, though based on how other PLAYERS are reacting in light of the Altuve "Oh man don't tell me he actually did THAT?!" mess, it sounds like they want to see their peers busted too.  And with Altuve specifically, even if MLB claims that it couldn't find any satisfactory evidence to support his alleged use of an electronic buzzer, it sure sounds like he's going to be wearing the scarlet letter, as far as other teams and their players are concerned...quite possibly permanently.

The message has effectively been sent to FRANCHISES too...docked picks, hefty fines.  Not like Hinch and Luhnow were the only ones who had to pay.  

https://www.ocregister.com/2020/01/16/dodgers-cody-bellinger-alex-wood-speak-out-on-astros-cheating-scandal/

And other players have broken the supposed "gag order" to chime in as well.  

 

[NJDevs4978]

It’s definitely becoming a hitter-pitcher civil war in a sense because of the fact sign stealing affects pitchers against hitters...you notice other than Bellinger (whose team got affected twice over by this), most of the people talking so far are pitchers - CC, Wood, Bauer, Clevinger and it was a pitcher (Fiers) who spilled the beans in the first place.

Edited January 17, 2020 by NJDevs4978

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Yeah very good point.  

[titans04]

Would be a great message to Altuve and Bregman  if they took a handful of fastballs between the numbers early on. 

[Muevelos]

Docked picks and fines is nothing for cheating. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 minute ago, CarterforPresident said:

Docked picks and fines is nothing for cheating. 

Manager and GM were suspended (then canned), franchise was docked first and second round picks for 2 straight years and fined $5 million (max allowed).  What more could have been done?  Even more picks taken away?  WS victory vacated?  Team forcibly broken up?  (Obviously not much chance of the latter two happening.)  I think it's a pretty big deal when your front office and your manager are exiled.  And the new GM will be handcuffed a bit.  

[Muevelos]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Manager and GM were suspended (then canned), franchise was docked first and second round picks for 2 straight years and fined $5 million (max allowed).  What more could have been done?  Even more picks taken away?  WS victory vacated?  Team forcibly broken up?  (Obviously not much chance of the latter two happening.)  I think it's a pretty big deal when your front office and your manager are exiled.  And the new GM will be handcuffed a bit.  

I disagree completely and I'm seeing a lot of people say the same thing. I'm listening to multiple radio stations for other team and they're basically saying the same thing, their team might as well cheat because the punishment is pennies on the dollar in the grand scheme of things. It isn't a great look for baseball. 

[NJDevs4978]

You can still cheat but you have to:

A ) do it without the manager or GM ever finding out cause they aren't going to risk getting blacklisted over it and will stop it (and there's a certain amount of player peer pressure here too, nobody wants to be known as rogues who got their manager and GM fired and their organization smeared).

B ) not tell anyone who'll ever spill the beans on you personally, since when it's institutionalized it's hard to know who did what and how much (and impossible to hide in the locker room), but if it's on a smaller basis it's easier to pin personal involvement down if you get caught

Just having organizations forced to be more vigilant should curb the institutionalized stuff.  Plus I would hope baseball would monitor the video rooms in each ballpark and take some other precautions going forward

Edited January 18, 2020 by NJDevs4978

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

3 hours ago, CarterforPresident said:

I disagree completely and I'm seeing a lot of people say the same thing. I'm listening to multiple radio stations for other team and they're basically saying the same thing, their team might as well cheat because the punishment is pennies on the dollar in the grand scheme of things. It isn't a great look for baseball. 

4978 just made a couple of good points, but again, what more did you want to see from MLB beyond the punishments meted? 

[Muevelos]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:52 PM, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

4978 just made a couple of good points, but again, what more did you want to see from MLB beyond the punishments meted? 

Alot of teams cheat, if not all teams try it. Pitchers as well. Houston just got caught. They won it all as well the price for Houston should be much steeper. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

15 hours ago, CarterforPresident said:

Alot of teams cheat, if not all teams try it. Pitchers as well. Houston just got caught. They won it all as well the price for Houston should be much steeper. 

You still aren't answering my question.  What more do you want to see from MLB, as far as penalties go?  Player fines/suspensions for those proven to have been involved?  Lifetime bans for managers, GM, and team presidents who not only see this happen on their watch, but are proven to have known about it?  I saw a poll that shows that 72% of the participants do indeed think that MLB needed to go further in punishing the Astros, so at this point I'm not really disputing that more couldn't have been done.  I'm simply wondering what more COULD be done.  I guess if MLB really wanted to go full scorched-Earth (and see not just the Astros but the teams that employ former Astros also pay a price), they could try to suspend the entire 2019 team for one full season...but that would become so complicated that I doubt such a penalty could ever actually be doled out...not to mention the players would file grievances galore I'm sure (especially the pitchers...the entire Houston staff combined for 21 plate appearances in 2019 and managed one base hit...not like THEY really benefitted from knowing what pitches were coming).  

What will be interesting will be how long it will be before anyone who lost their job due to the fallout is given another chance within the game.  Will these guys effectively be blackballed?

[NJDevs4978]

One of the harder things about disciplining players is determining how complicit each guy is. What’s the level of complicity of pitchers, role players, maybe even a position player or two who actually preferred not to get involved? And how much do you hold the players responsible for something that was mainly run by a member of the staff? (Cora). Saying you want to suspend Altuve is one thing but how much unless something is proven with the buzzer? 

Not to mention giving the players immunity is the only reason anyone at all cooperated with the investigation. Otherwise you’d be relying almost solely on Fiers’ account.

Edited January 20, 2020 by NJDevs4978

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

10 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

One of the harder things about disciplining players is determining how complicit each guy is. What’s the level of complicity of pitchers, role players, maybe even a position player or two who actually preferred not to get involved? And how much do you hold the players responsible for something that was mainly run by a member of the staff? (Cora). Saying you want to suspend Altuve is one thing but how much unless something is proven with the buzzer? 

Not to mention giving the players immunity is the only reason anyone at all cooperated with the investigation. Otherwise you’d be relying almost solely on Fiers’ account.

I agree that it's complicated as hell.  Especially with proof from player to player being very hard to find...that's why I think if people really want something with more teeth, it's probably going to have to be lifetime bans...the only exception being if a GM and/or manager discover something like this is going and immediately reports it to MLB.  But then of course you're relying on some kind of "honor code", where someone could pretend not to know anything for a while before he finally says something to MLB (though there's probably people that could come forward and say "Bullsh!t, this guy knew well before he reported it, here's proof!).  

And yeah, you do wonder how much less would've been found out without the immunity.  

You also wonder how many people share Jessica Mendoza's take on Fiers...I'm guessing more than just a few people are thinking "What a little narc, how come he wasn't saying anything while it was going on?"  Of course those who feel that way aren't going to dumb enough to put themselves out there (especially after Mendoza's been shredded), and to be clear, that is a pretty poor take on this whole thing.  

[Muevelos]

15 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

You still aren't answering my question.  What more do you want to see from MLB, as far as penalties go?  Player fines/suspensions for those proven to have been involved?  Lifetime bans for managers, GM, and team presidents who not only see this happen on their watch, but are proven to have known about it?  I saw a poll that shows that 72% of the participants do indeed think that MLB needed to go further in punishing the Astros, so at this point I'm not really disputing that more couldn't have been done.  I'm simply wondering what more COULD be done.  I guess if MLB really wanted to go full scorched-Earth (and see not just the Astros but the teams that employ former Astros also pay a price), they could try to suspend the entire 2019 team for one full season...but that would become so complicated that I doubt such a penalty could ever actually be doled out...not to mention the players would file grievances galore I'm sure (especially the pitchers...the entire Houston staff combined for 21 plate appearances in 2019 and managed one base hit...not like THEY really benefitted from knowing what pitches were coming).  

What will be interesting will be how long it will be before anyone who lost their job due to the fallout is given another chance within the game.  Will these guys effectively be blackballed?

It won't happen ever, but taking that World Series Championship away, when they didn't truly earn it would do it for me. Seeing and "*" doesn't do jack sh!t in the end.

[NJDevs4978]

They can take away the championship for the Astros, and the Red Sox for that matter (though it would make baseball a total laughingstock if two straight titles were 'vacated'), but then you'd have to take away everyone's WS ring too and the player's union would fight that tooth and nail, among other things lol

It's tainted in whoever wants to believe it's tainted and it's not in whoever is never going to believe it's tainted, no matter whether you put an actual asterisk on it or not.  Just like the steroids home run records.  A lot of people including me put our own asterisks on it, but they're still 'MLB records'.

Edited January 21, 2020 by NJDevs4978

[NJDevs4978]

Well guess we’ll see if he’s ready

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by NJDevs4978

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Feels like typical Mets penny-pinching.  Oh well.  At least if he fails, BVW should go with him.  

[NJDevs4978]

I was today years old when I realized Luis Rojas is actually Felipe’s kid. Mind...blown

 

['7']

eh. I don't really know how to feel about this. I'm still sort of shaking my head after the whole Beltran debacle. Need to get that further in the rear-view mirror.

Impossible to get excited about Rojas, but at least he's paid his dues in the minors. No chance he's a Mickey like abomination/laughingstock type. He's come through our system. He's familiar with a lot of these guys already. He's young, bright...not tainted by anything like Beltran would've been had they forged forward with him (and I still think the Mets could've ridden out the storm)

Edited January 22, 2020 by '7'

['7']

1 hour ago, NJDevs4978 said:

I was today years old when I realized Luis Rojas is actually Felipe’s kid. Mind...blown

 

 

I like that Alou pedigree. Felipe was a terrific manager under some very trying circumstances (bleak and hopeless ones) his players always played hard for him and he was always thinking several moves ahead. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Marte to the D'Backs for a pair of prospects.  I know the Mets were linked to him via rumors, but I wasn't really expecting BVW to get him.  Not like there's a whole lot of prospects left in the Mets' system, due to several prior deals.  And I'm sure in Wilpon Land, the only way the Mets can take on new money is to shuffle out old money.  

['7']

On 1/27/2020 at 4:02 PM, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Marte to the D'Backs for a pair of prospects.  I know the Mets were linked to him via rumors, but I wasn't really expecting BVW to get him.  Not like there's a whole lot of prospects left in the Mets' system, due to several prior deals.  And I'm sure in Wilpon Land, the only way the Mets can take on new money is to shuffle out old money.  

There isn't, and supposedly the Diamondbacks wanted two of our top 5 prospects. For a 31 year old. That's a no. I'm not saying I wouldn't have done it under different circumstances. If our prospect pool was deeper. If we were on the cusp and thought he was the final piece...but not right now

Edited January 29, 2020 by '7'

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Yeah I can't say I was disappointed (even though my post could've been interpreted that way)...I didn't want to see the prospect pool even more drained than it already was.  And I think Marte definitely had serious boom-bust potential had he come here.  I could see him either having one of his worst years, or missing a lot of games...basically, a 2017-type season.  

And to reiterate, I think the Mets are probably to the point where they will only take on new money if they can discard other money.  So I don't expect anything more coming unless Cespedes' money (or a guy like Familia) gets moved elsewhere.  They still operate like a small/lower mid-market team.  

['7']

27 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Yeah I can't say I was disappointed (even though my post could've been interpreted that way)...I didn't want to see the prospect pool even more drained than it already was.  And I think Marte definitely had serious boom-bust potential had he come here.  I could see him either having one of his worst years, or missing a lot of games...basically, a 2017-type season.  

And to reiterate, I think the Mets are probably to the point where they will only take on new money if they can discard other money.  So I don't expect anything more coming unless Cespedes' money (or a guy like Familia) gets moved elsewhere.  They still operate like a small/lower mid-market team.  

Marte worries me with what his career trajectory could be potentially. 31. He doesn't and has never walked much but does get on base generally. But if that bat slows down those K's will be up in the 160's or 170s possibly. And he won't be walking so he'll be pretty useless. And while he has power it's never really been great power

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

25 minutes ago, '7' said:

Marte worries me with what his career trajectory could be potentially. 31. He doesn't and has never walked much but does get on base generally. But if that bat slows down those K's will be up in the 160's or 170s possibly. And he won't be walking so he'll be pretty useless. And while he has power it's never really been great power

Yeah I could see it ending ugly with him.  And this is exactly the kind of deal that the Mets seem to have no luck in making.  Of course if he went to the Yankees he'd have a career year.