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Beating the Deadest of Horses (Parise)

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Posted (edited)

The thing is, after all he did for the Devils and the state of NJ, Lou gets a pass for his mistake. Parise does not get a pass. He should have been honest about his intentions instead of letting us lose him for nothing.

At least he has his bullsh!t little excuse about been jealous of Kovy though. Tavares screwed the Isles over for seemingly no reason.

Edited by Jerzey

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8 hours ago, Jerzey said:

The thing is, after all he did for the Devils and the state of NJ, Lou gets a pass for his mistake. Parise does not get a pass. He should have been honest about his intentions instead of letting us lose him for nothing.

At least he has his bullsh!t little excuse about been jealous of Kovy though. Tavares screwed the Isles over for seemingly no reason.

1

You can never blame a player for "losing him for nothing". All he's doing is using the right you GAVE him to either stay or walk. 

If you let a player walk into free agency where he can leave and you get nothing, that's 200% on you. You had to take care of that while you still had all the leverage and control over your asset to sign him or trade him if you know you can't.

Let's not forget the same right to walk was given to Elias, Nieds, Rafalski, Gomez, Holik, Clarkson etc etc etc

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15 hours ago, Jerzey said:

The thing is, after all he did for the Devils and the state of NJ, Lou gets a pass for his mistake. Parise does not get a pass. He should have been honest about his intentions instead of letting us lose him for nothing.

At least he has his bullsh!t little excuse about been jealous of Kovy though. Tavares screwed the Isles over for seemingly no reason.

That's assuming that Lou actually talked to Parise before the summer of 2012.  If Lou followed his usual "no talking about contracts during the season" policy that he had (only exceptions to this that I can think of was for Marty and I think Stevens), then that's on Lou for making the effort to see where Parise's mind was at.

In the end we don't know the answer for this and maybe we will one day or we won't (would love to see Lou come out with a memoir after he retires but I doubt that will happen).  I just think the whole process was doomed from the start regardless.

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2 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

That's assuming that Lou actually talked to Parise before the summer of 2012.  If Lou followed his usual "no talking about contracts during the season" policy that he had (only exceptions to this that I can think of was for Marty and I think Stevens), then that's on Lou for making the effort to see where Parise's mind was at.

I don't know, even if he said "I am definitely testing free agency", does that mean you definitely trade him? Ordinarily I might say yes, but we went to the fvcking Finals that year. We were supposed to trade or best offensive player by the trade deadline? 

Like I said, I don't know. But I find it hard to argue against keeping him when you went to the Finals. 

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34 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I don't know, even if he said "I am definitely testing free agency", does that mean you definitely trade him? Ordinarily I might say yes, but we went to the fvcking Finals that year. We were supposed to trade or best offensive player by the trade deadline? 

Like I said, I don't know. But I find it hard to argue against keeping him when you went to the Finals. 

By the time the trade deadline came around, we were no lock to even get past the first round.

He was also not our best offensive player that season.

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2 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I don't know, even if he said "I am definitely testing free agency", does that mean you definitely trade him? Ordinarily I might say yes, but we went to the fvcking Finals that year. We were supposed to trade or best offensive player by the trade deadline? 

Like I said, I don't know. But I find it hard to argue against keeping him when you went to the Finals. 

That's analyzing the situation hindsight 20/20 though. We were not really contenders that year, but we somehow made it.

So it's not like the decision was between "Do I trade #9 or I'm making it to the cup finals?" The question should have been between "Am i doing everything I can to sign him or get something for him? or "Am i gambling that MAYBE i can keep him but may lose him for nothing and go all out for the playoffs"

And IF you look at it hindsight 20/20... even there it's debatable what was best and if we'd run a poll it would likely be 50/50. Looking at the team right now... seeing how stripped and lacking assets the team is and thinking of the years of misery we had once zach and kovy left... (is kovy even leaving if zach was staying?) do you pick making it to the finals and losing or getting a return on your top player to build for the future? But at the same time if we were not making it to the finals would the new ownership be interested in us now? That's also debatable.

We could list 100000 "what if scenarios" around this case really. But at the end of the day, it's systematically bad asset management. And if this was an isolated case I'd give it a pass or give it the benefit of the doubt but again, it was not. We've lost tons of top players that way and we would have lost a lot more if it wasnt that we were a good team giving them a chance to win. 

 

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1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

That's analyzing the situation hindsight 20/20 though. We were not really contenders that year, but we somehow made it.

"Somehow" was by keeping your top-6 (top-3?) offensive player who was a 31 goal scorer that year, who then led your team with 8 goals in the playoffs (tie with Kovy). 

It's not hindsight. Maybe Lou had the foresight to know you don't trade away your best players if you are going to make a run, and he was right, we did. 

1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

So it's not like the decision was between "Do I trade #9 or I'm making it to the cup finals?" The question should have been between "Am i doing everything I can to sign him or get something for him? or "Am i gambling that MAYBE i can keep him but may lose him for nothing and go all out for the playoffs"

You have no idea what Lou did or didn't do to sign him. And yes, the second question is right. If you think you can make a run, you don't trade him. Simple as that. 

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2 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

"Somehow" was by keeping your top-6 (top-3?) offensive player who was a 31 goal scorer that year, who then led your team with 8 goals in the playoffs (tie with Kovy). 

It's not hindsight. Maybe Lou had the foresight to know you don't trade away your best players if you are going to make a run, and he was right, we did. 

You have no idea what Lou did or didn't do to sign him. And yes, the second question is right. If you think you can make a run, you don't trade him. Simple as that. 

If we would have lost in the first round would that change your perception? 

 

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2 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

If we would have lost in the first round would that change your perception? 

Not really. It's all a matter of whether you feel like your team has a shot if you keep him. We were a 48 win team while the highest win total for any team was 51. We had a chance, we made a run, it didn't work out. 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Not really. It's all a matter of whether you feel like your team has a shot if you keep him. We were a 48 win team while the highest win total for any team was 51. We had a chance, we made a run, it didn't work out. 

Well it's not that black and white, clearly you have a win now, fvck the future mentality. Which is why we have the sh!t team we have now.

Edited by SterioDesign

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13 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Not really. It's all a matter of whether you feel like your team has a shot if you keep him. We were a 48 win team while the highest win total for any team was 51. We had a chance, we made a run, it didn't work out. 

That 2011-12 team was fun, but weird...the Bruins finished with a 49-29-4 record and had a goal differential of +61 (eliminating phantom shootout goals)...the Devils went 48-28-6 and were just +11.  And of course as we well remember, they were friggin' BEASTS in shootouts...Kovy was damned near automatic, and as a team they converted on 57.1% of their shootout attempts...they went 12-4 in them that year. 

Was funny, for all that went very horribly wrong in the first half of 2010-11, so much went right in 2011-12.  Some deals worked out nicely too...bringing in Poni and Zids, Zajac playing a ton in the playoffs after missing most of the regular season, etc.

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1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

That 2011-12 team was fun, but weird...the Bruins finished with a 49-29-4 record and had a goal differential of +61 (eliminating phantom shootout goals)...the Devils went 48-28-6 and were just +11.  And of course as we well remember, they were friggin' BEASTS in shootouts...Kovy was damned near automatic, and as a team they converted on 57.1% of their shootout attempts...they went 12-4 in them that year. 

Was funny, for all that went very horribly wrong in the first half of 2010-11, so much went right in 2011-12.  Some deals worked out nicely too...bringing in Poni and Zids, Zajac playing a ton in the playoffs after missing most of the regular season, etc.

Also Elias had a 78 point season as well and was second on the team overall (Kovy had 83 points IIRC).  That was the quietest 78 points I can ever remember on the Devils with the exception of his 78 point season in 08-09 as well.

11-12 season just had a ton of dominos falling the right way.  Henrique had the best Devil rookie season since Gomez, Clarkson scored 30 goals, Sykora managed 21 goals after we signed him for a song, and even Zubrus squeezed out 44 points with Marty having a strong 40ish game stretch in the second half of of the season.  Not to mention the shootout prowess as you described.

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1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

Well it's not that black and white, clearly you have a win now, fvck the future mentality. Which is why we have the sh!t team we have now.

That could not be more inaccurate, honestly. 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

That could not be more inaccurate, honestly. 

In order to have healthy discussions, it's a good approach to not just tell people that they are wrong and walk away.

Why is it an inaccurate statement? 

We suck now because we don't have enough assets to rebuild correctly. That comes from decades of bad drafting + letting assets with value walk away for nothing for years, wasting assets running them to the ground until they have no values anymore and going all out and "thinking we have a shot" in the playoffs.

Edited by SterioDesign

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6 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

In order to have healthy discussions, it's a good approach to not just tell people that they are wrong and walk away.

Why is it an inaccurate statement? 

We suck now because we don't have enough assets to rebuild correctly. That comes from decades of bad drafting + letting assets with value walk away for nothing for years, wasting assets running them to the ground until they have no values anymore and going all out and "thinking we have a shot" in the playoffs.

It’s inaccurate because the bulk of those years we made sh!tty draft choices, we had the picks to rebuild and we failed to do it. That had nothing to do with wanting to win now, we picked the wrong guys to develop. 

And if what you said were true, that'd Be “fvck the Stanley Cup, we’ll win it later” which no organization in the history of hockey ever said. 

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18 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

It’s inaccurate because the bulk of those years we made sh!tty draft choices, we had the picks to rebuild and we failed to do it. That had nothing to do with wanting to win now, we picked the wrong guys to develop. 

And if what you said were true, that'd Be “fvck the Stanley Cup, we’ll win it later” which no organization in the history of hockey ever said. 

Most organization are weighing in the pros and cons and gauge their chances at a cup, then they are making decisions based on that. They don't make a black on white decision like. "Ok since we may have a shot in the playoffs, we have to keep everyone no matter what" You have to put a lot more thought than that.

The reason we have Palms right now is that we FINALLY accepted that we had no chance in the playoffs, traded Jagr and used that pick to get him. Same thing with Mojo I think. The opposite is not trading Clarkson when it was clear we couldnt afford what he wanted and we ended up missing the playoffs. Total waste of asset in its prime coming off his 2 best seasons. 

Anyway. clearly we both won't change our minds as we simply don't see things the same way. 

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2 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Anyway. clearly we both won't change our minds as we simply don't see things the same way. 

That I can agree with. 

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The whole texting Sutter during the playoffs bothered me more than anything else. There was no reason that they couldn't wait until after the playoffs or at the very least kept their fvcking mouths shut about it. 

I'm happy they have never made it past the second round and I'll still root against them every year and hope they never win sh!t. 

Those two can go fvck themselves and Parise deserves the boos he receives when he comes back here.

Edited by Satans Hockey

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