GDT: Devils at St. Louis at 8pm 2/12 - MSG+

[NewarkDevil5]

1 hour ago, mfitz804 said:

Yeah, I'm not disputing that either. I think Yakovlev could be an NHL player. Is he going to be a superstar? No. Are we going to have 6 superstars on defense? Also no. You need average NHL players to fill in spots, and I would like to know if McLeod or Yakovlev or even Murphy are prepared to fill in those spots. 

I agree with this. I don't want another Anton Stralman (although obviously the situation isn't identical in that one was a preseason look at a guy where we decided we didn't have room and the other was a KHL free agent from another country that we took a flyer on) where some other team winds up picking up a guy that we dropped that winds up being a very serviceable piece. We're not in a position where we can afford to do that.

[DevsMan84]

42 minutes ago, NewarkDevil5 said:

I agree with this. I don't want another Anton Stralman (although obviously the situation isn't identical in that one was a preseason look at a guy where we decided we didn't have room and the other was a KHL free agent from another country that we took a flyer on) where some other team winds up picking up a guy that we dropped that winds up being a very serviceable piece. We're not in a position where we can afford to do that.

That is not even close to an identical situation.  The Devils lineup was in far better shape and Stralman had over 200 NHL games under his belt.  You are comparing him to an KHL pickup and a guy who has been so far a career AHLer.

[DevsMan84]

1 hour ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I think the point is to see what they can do against NHL competition, and with "NHL" caliber teammates, though with our current roster, I use that term loosely.  This season is a lost cause, so it doesn't hurt anything to bring them up.  Murphy's also 25 and Yak is 27, so it's really now or never.  Evaluating them in the AHL does absolutely nothing right now.

Either way it is a lost cause and bringing them up to the slaughter will not give coaching staff any better looks than in the AHL.  Again if there is a hint that it will, it will be marginal at best.  All these names being brought up are marginal NHL players.

[HellOnICE]

Wait until after deadline, we'll get more kids up.

[NJDfan1711]

Just now, DevsMan84 said:

Either way it is a lost cause and bringing them up to the slaughter will not give coaching staff any better looks than in the AHL.  

I guess I just disagree with that.  If they get abused, they get abused, but there's a chance they might fare well and actually play some decent defense against the best league in the world, rather than the best league's little brother, and I think it's worth at least seeing what happens.   

Again if there is a hint that it will, it will be marginal at best.  All these names being brought up are marginal NHL players.

I don't disagree with this as much, I think the majority of these guys are what you think they are, but what exactly are we basing it on?  Their current history and stats in the AHL? I understand the logic that if they were truly superstar players that they should be lighting up the minor leagues to the point where it would be obvious to bring them up to the NHL ranks where they belong, but to be fair, lots of guys have started out in the minors and were thought of as "marginal players" at best, only to get a shot and get called up and all of a sudden then turn into a budding star.  Not always, but it happens, and as I mentioned, I just don't really see a downside to it.  If they all turn out to be duds, so be it, nothing gained nothing lost.

[NewarkDevil5]

12 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

That is not even close to an identical situation.  The Devils lineup was in far better shape and Stralman had over 200 NHL games under his belt.  You are comparing him to an KHL pickup and a guy who has been so far a career AHLer.

I understand that the situations aren't a perfect comparison, but while the team was in better shape, defense was already starting to become an issue even back then and more specifically mobile defensemen as that was the direction that the league was heading. The issue here in some ways is more dire in every way. We honestly don't have that many competent defensemen to ice on a given night. Guys like Yakovlev and Murphy may wind up going nowhere, but right now they're our property and have more possibilities than the guys we're icing. That is not the right move.

Edited February 14, 2019 by NewarkDevil5

[DevsMan84]

6 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I guess I just disagree with that.  If they get abused, they get abused, but there's a chance they might fare well and actually play some decent defense against the best league in the world, rather than the best league's little brother, and I think it's worth at least seeing what happens.   

 

I don't disagree with this as much, I think the majority of these guys are what you think they are, but what exactly are we basing it on?  Their current history and stats in the AHL? I understand the logic that if they were truly superstar players that they should be lighting up the minor leagues to the point where it would be obvious to bring them up to the NHL ranks where they belong, but to be fair, lots of guys have started out in the minors and were thought of as "marginal players" at best, only to get a shot and get called up and all of a sudden then turn into a budding star.  Not always, but it happens, and as I mentioned, I just don't really see a downside to it.  If they all turn out to be duds, so be it, nothing gained nothing lost.

The only reason why these players are in the lineup this season is either due to injury or because they are filling in for players that have been traded away.  The whole evaluation period is crap if they impress in these last 25-30 games while get out-matched in next season's training camp and don't make the opening night roster.

[DevsMan84]

11 minutes ago, NewarkDevil5 said:

I understand that the situations aren't a perfect comparison, but while the team was in better shape, defense was already starting to become an issue even back then and more specifically mobile defensemen as that was the direction that the league was heading. The issue here in some ways is more dire in every way. We honestly don't have that many competent defensemen to ice on a given night. Guys like Yakovlev and Murphy may wind up going nowhere, but right now they're our property and have more possibilities than the guys we're icing. That is not the right move.

I disagree with that point.  Our defense was still fine back then and was far better than what we had now.

Our defense started becoming a problem when we traded away Larsson for Hall and when Severson took a while to take the next step along with Greene suddenly aging in the summer of 2017.  Right before we traded for Hall in the summer of 2016 the discussion in many places, this forum included, was how the Devils were great in goal, decent on defense, but couldn't score for their lives.

Murphy was also drafted in 2011 (same year as Larsson), 25 years old, and since being drafted has played in almost the same exact number of AHL games as NHL games (about 170-175).  I really don't know where all this hope for him improving or being better than he already is coming from.

Edited February 14, 2019 by DevsMan84

[NJDfan1711]

2 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

The only reason why these players are in the lineup this season is either due to injury or because they are filling in for players that have been traded away.  The whole evaluation period is crap if they impress in these last 25-30 games while get out-matched in next season's training camp and don't make the opening night roster.

I guess.  I mean, I don't really consider 25-30 games to be an insignificant number, and even though the season is a wash for us, there's still plenty of other teams trying hard and vying for a playoff spot with things on the line...

[DevsMan84]

2 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I guess.  I mean, I don't really consider 25-30 games to be an insignificant number, and even though the season is a wash for us, there's still plenty of other teams trying hard and vying for a playoff spot with things on the line...

IDK I guess I just don't find playing playoff spoiler to other teams to be all that interesting.

Again these games will mean zip for these guys if they eventually lose out to another player in TC next season.

[mfitz804]

20 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Our defense started becoming a problem when we traded away Larsson for Hall and when Severson took a while to take the next step along with Greene suddenly aging in the summer of 2017. 

So funny having been a fan of this team through the late 80's through the 2000's, you never worried about defense. It was always scoring that was the question mark. That has certainly taken a turn.

I certainly don't think Adam Larsson makes a difference on this team this season, and I think that trade had to be made, but its a valid point. The problem is, they didn't go out and get anyone to replace him. We don't have anyone on our team that I would consider a first pairing defenseman, and that's not good. 

[NJDfan1711]

23 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Again these games will mean zip for these guys if they eventually lose out to another player in TC next season.

That's kinda my point though...you don't think a solid 25-30 games down the stretch here for one of these guys will make an impact on the coaching staff and carry over to next season?  I get that when TC rolls around it's what's fresh in everyone's minds at the time so how a player performs at that moment is a good indicator of who may or may not earn a roster spot, but I also think a quarter of a season's worth of experience, in actual real games against players from other teams in the league, counts for something.  I think we've seen in the past that player X may have had a great TC but still doesn't get a chance with the big club, and we won't always know why that is, but it very well could be because player Y played well at the end of the season before, in an actual real live game scenario, as opposed to in some drills or practices and inter-team competition.  

[NewarkDevil5]

21 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I disagree with that point.  Our defense was still fine back then and was far better than what we had now.

Our defense started becoming a problem when we traded away Larsson for Hall and when Severson took a while to take the next step along with Greene suddenly aging in the summer of 2017.  Right before we traded for Hall in the summer of 2016 the discussion in many places, this forum included, was how the Devils were great in goal, decent on defense, but couldn't score for their lives.

Murphy was also drafted in 2011 (same year as Larsson), 25 years old, and since being drafted has played in almost the same exact number of AHL games as NHL games (about 170-175).  I really don't know where all this hope for him improving or being better than he already is coming from.

Our defense was already a problem which is why we drafted Larsson the summer prior and were so thrilled about it. These are our defensemen from that year:

 

29	Mark Fayne	us	D	24	6-3	209	R/-	1	May 15, 1987
2	Kurtis Foster	ca	D	30	6-5	225	R/-	8	November 24, 1981
2	Mark Fraser	ca	D	25	6-4	220	L/-	3	September 29, 1986
6	Andy Greene	us	D	29	5-11	190	L/-	5	October 30, 1982
21	Peter Harrold	us	D	28	5-11	180	R/-	5	June 8, 1983
5	Adam Larsson	se	D	19	6-3	210	R/-	R	November 12, 1992
24	Bryce Salvador	ca	D	35	6-4	215	L/-	9	February 11, 1976
7	Henrik Tallinder	se	D	33	6-4	215	L/-	9	January 10, 1979
32	Matt Taormina	us	D	25	5-10	182	L/-	1	October 20, 1986
33	Alexander Urbom	se	D	21	6-5	215	L/-	1	December 20, 1990
28	Anton Volchenkov	su	D	29	6-1	220	L/-	8	February 25, 1982
2	Marek Zidlicky	cs	D	34	5-11	190	R/-	7	February 3, 1977

As far as comparing Larsson to Murphy being from the same draft years, different players find their fit at different times. Defensemen by and large develop slower than forwards. Adam Larsson just happened to be on a team that was so starved for young defensemen that they gave him that role and kept putting him out there until the warts were gone. Other players don't always get afforded that luxury. He's obviously got some tools. Those were apparent even in the one game he played for us. Then again, maybe it's best for him not to develop with the big club seeing as how Nasreddine can't seem to help any young defensemen improve their game.

[DevsMan84]

7 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

That's kinda my point though...you don't think a solid 25-30 games down the stretch here for one of these guys will make an impact on the coaching staff and carry over to next season?  I get that when TC rolls around it's what's fresh in everyone's minds at the time so how a player performs at that moment is a good indicator of who may or may not earn a roster spot, but I also think a quarter of a season's worth of experience, in actual real games against players from other teams in the league, counts for something.  I think we've seen in the past that player X may have had a great TC but still doesn't get a chance with the big club, and we won't always know why that is, but it very well could be because player Y played well at the end of the season before, in an actual real live game scenario, as opposed to in some drills or practices and inter-team competition.  

Short answer is no.

These players also play preseason games before the regular season begins.

[DevsMan84]

8 minutes ago, NewarkDevil5 said:

Our defense was already a problem which is why we drafted Larsson the summer prior and were so thrilled about it. These are our defensemen from that year:

 

29	Mark Fayne	us	D	24	6-3	209	R/-	1	May 15, 1987
2	Kurtis Foster	ca	D	30	6-5	225	R/-	8	November 24, 1981
2	Mark Fraser	ca	D	25	6-4	220	L/-	3	September 29, 1986
6	Andy Greene	us	D	29	5-11	190	L/-	5	October 30, 1982
21	Peter Harrold	us	D	28	5-11	180	R/-	5	June 8, 1983
5	Adam Larsson	se	D	19	6-3	210	R/-	R	November 12, 1992
24	Bryce Salvador	ca	D	35	6-4	215	L/-	9	February 11, 1976
7	Henrik Tallinder	se	D	33	6-4	215	L/-	9	January 10, 1979
32	Matt Taormina	us	D	25	5-10	182	L/-	1	October 20, 1986
33	Alexander Urbom	se	D	21	6-5	215	L/-	1	December 20, 1990
28	Anton Volchenkov	su	D	29	6-1	220	L/-	8	February 25, 1982
2	Marek Zidlicky	cs	D	34	5-11	190	R/-	7	February 3, 1977

As far as comparing Larsson to Murphy being from the same draft years, different players find their fit at different times. Defensemen by and large develop slower than forwards. Adam Larsson just happened to be on a team that was so starved for young defensemen that they gave him that role and kept putting him out there until the warts were gone. Other players don't always get afforded that luxury. He's obviously got some tools. Those were apparent even in the one game he played for us. Then again, maybe it's best for him not to develop with the big club seeing as how Nasreddine can't seem to help any young defensemen improve their game.

Yet in 2016 we were 8th best team in terms of shots against and 9th best in goals against.  This season we are 17th in shots against and 29th in goals against.  For another comparison's sake in 2011 (the year we drafted Larsson) we were 8th in goals against and 1st in shots against.  So yeah, our defense back then was definitely better than what we have now.

Murphy is on his 3rd NHL team and is approaching almost 200 NHL games.  He has roughly the same amount of NHL games as Zacha who was drafted 4 years later than him.  This is because he has spent half of his career in the AHL.  I don't know what you are seeing that makes you think he is going to get better.

[NewarkDevil5]

21 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Yet in 2016 we were 8th best team in terms of shots against and 9th best in goals against.  This season we are 17th in shots against and 29th in goals against.  For another comparison's sake in 2011 (the year we drafted Larsson) we were 8th in goals against and 1st in shots against.  So yeah, our defense back then was definitely better than what we have now.

Murphy is on his 3rd NHL team and is approaching almost 200 NHL games.  He has roughly the same amount of NHL games as Zacha who was drafted 4 years later than him.  This is because he has spent half of his career in the AHL.  I don't know what you are seeing that makes you think he is going to get better.

Fact is that I don't know what I'm seeing either because I've only seen him play one game with us, but he was good in that game for a guy who had no idea what the system was. His instincts were good, his skating speed was good, his passing was good. He's got a lot of good tools, but defensemen are finicky. The same defenseman who blossoms in one system flounders in another. I never rule out defensemen and power forwards until they hit about 27 years old. Murphy's close to that point, but he's not there yet.

[DevsMan84]

1 hour ago, NewarkDevil5 said:

Fact is that I don't know what I'm seeing either because I've only seen him play one game with us, but he was good in that game for a guy who had no idea what the system was. His instincts were good, his skating speed was good, his passing was good. He's got a lot of good tools, but defensemen are finicky. The same defenseman who blossoms in one system flounders in another. I never rule out defensemen and power forwards until they hit about 27 years old. Murphy's close to that point, but he's not there yet.

Full-time professional hockey player since 13-14 season.  Has played in almost 200 NHL games and 200 AHL games.  Is on his third NHL team.

I don't know what else to say but if you want to hold your breath for him after 1 NHL game with us then be my guest.  I guess I am taking the better odds.

Edited February 14, 2019 by DevsMan84

[NewarkDevil5]

14 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Full-time professional hockey player since 13-14 season.  Has played in almost 200 NHL games and 200 AHL games.  Is on his third NHL team.

I don't know what else to say but if you want to hold your breath for him after 1 NHL game with us then be my guest.  I guess I am taking the better odds.

You probably are taking the better odds overall and I'm inclined to agree with you that the odds are pretty good he'll continue to bust, but I would say there are better odds of him getting better than he is now than someone like Gryba who is 5 years older and has played all of 100 more NHL games.