Debate: Devils vs. Flyers - Recent Drafting History

[SterioDesign]

12 minutes ago, NewarkDevil5 said:

Whether their role was flashy or not, guys like Oliwa, Rupp and Janssen managed to have NHL careers. That's a lot more than can be said for Matt Corrente or Adrian Foster.

Well sure... but... looking at how many "good" first round pick we've had through those years... there was either 7 or 9 rounds of picks every year... so say i give you those few guys you named were good picks.... 17(and some of them are really not great) through something like... 150+ picks ? It's still not great at all lol 

[DevsMan84]

8 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Well sure... but... looking at how many "good" first round pick we've had through those years... there was either 7 or 9 rounds of picks every year... so say i give you those few guys you named were good picks.... 17(and some of them are really not great) through something like... 150+ picks ? It's still not great at all lol 

Looking at only first rounders in those 18+ years is still silly and that goes for the OP as well.  You cannot call an entire draft a failure like in 1994 when you have Sharifijanov as your first round miss, but then have Elias as your second round jackpot along with Souray and Steve Sullivan as nice hits in later rounds that year.

I think your point would be better illustrated in looking at entire drafts by decade.  Lou/Conte's 90's decade was by and large really good.  Even if they whiffed in the first round they still found at the very least full-time NHL'ers in the later rounds.  Compare that to the 2000's and you will see in the link below if they are not hitting in the first round or two, the Devils pretty much are walking away with virtually nothing.  There are a few hits in there, but they are much fewer and far between.  The 2005 through 2009 drafts are particularly rough outside of Henrique.  That is the most damning evidence about Lou/Conte's drafting post 90's.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007066.html

 

36 minutes ago, NewarkDevil5 said:

Whether their role was flashy or not, guys like Oliwa, Rupp and Janssen managed to have NHL careers. That's a lot more than can be said for Matt Corrente or Adrian Foster.

Bingo.  I was considering a "hit" as being a guy who established himself as a regular NHL player, not necessarily an all-star player.

[mfitz804]

58 minutes ago, NewarkDevil5 said:

Whether their role was flashy or not, guys like Oliwa, Rupp and Janssen managed to have NHL careers. That's a lot more than can be said for Matt Corrente or Adrian Foster.

Unless I’m wrong, 2 of those 3 have their name on the Cup. A little better than just an “NHL career”!!

[SterioDesign]

18 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Looking at only first rounders in those 18+ years is still silly and that goes for the OP as well.  You cannot call an entire draft a failure like in 1994 when you have Sharifijanov as your first round miss, but then have Elias as your second round jackpot along with Souray and Steve Sullivan as nice hits in later rounds that year.

I think your point would be better illustrated in looking at entire drafts by decade.  Lou/Conte's 90's decade was by and large really good.  Even if they whiffed in the first round they still found at the very least full-time NHL'ers in the later rounds.  Compare that to the 2000's and you will see in the link below if they are not hitting in the first round or two, the Devils pretty much are walking away with virtually nothing.  There are a few hits in there, but they are much fewer and far between.  The 2005 through 2009 drafts are particularly rough outside of Henrique.  That is the most damning evidence about Lou/Conte's drafting post 90's.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007066.html

 

Bingo.  I was considering a "hit" as being a guy who established himself as a regular NHL player, not necessarily an all-star player.

It's basically the off season already. Comparing first round picks is just as good as any discussion to kill time lol

Sure we had good picks in the 90s but it also confirms how Lou and Conte were never able to adjust to the new NHL 

[SterioDesign]

7 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Unless I’m wrong, 2 of those 3 have their name on the Cup. A little better than just an “NHL career”!!

Well its a bit too black and white to say that if you have your name on the cup that it's necessarily better than having a good NHL career lol

Some players had amazing careers like Joe Thornton and never won it. While guys like Wendell young got their name on the cup multiple times sitting on the bench lol 

[mfitz804]

29 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Well its a bit too black and white to say that if you have your name on the cup that it's necessarily better than having a good NHL career lol

Some players had amazing careers like Joe Thornton and never won it. While guys like Wendell young got their name on the cup multiple times sitting on the bench lol 

Nobody said “good” NHL career...they just said NHL career. Details my man lol.  

[SterioDesign]

3 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Nobody said “good” NHL career...they just said NHL career. Details my man lol.  

Well Wendell Young played 10 NHL games so that's not an NHL career lol my point still work haha

[mfitz804]

Just now, SterioDesign said:

Well Wendell Young played 10 NHL games so that's not an NHL career lol my point still work haha

Still pretty badass to have your name on the Cup. 

[SterioDesign]

3 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Still pretty badass to have your name on the Cup. 

absolutely. but also pretty badass to be in the all time top 15 in points even if you dont have a cup like dionne or thornton haha

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Wendell Young played in 187 games (+ two playoff) over 10 seasons.

Only reason I remember him was because he came into a Devils-Pens game in relief on 10/27/1990, to start the third period (score was tied 4-4 after 2...I was there for this one)...the Devils quickly scored to make it 5-4, then very soon after, John MacLean shot a puck into the Pens' end (I think beyond icing, but not 100% sure) that was well left of Young's net...Young came out to play it with his stick, and somehow it went off his stick, through his legs and into his net.  I remember Kirk Muller cracking up right on the ice...that made it 6-4 Devils.  Young was awful...gave up 3 goals on 9 shots that game.

This game:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/199010270NJD.html

[SterioDesign]

15 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Wendell Young played in 187 games (+ two playoff) over 10 seasons.

Only reason I remember him was because he came into a Devils-Pens game in relief on 10/27/1990, to start the third period (score was tied 4-4 after 2...I was there for this one)...the Devils quickly scored to make it 5-4, then very soon after, John MacLean shot a puck into the Pens' end (I think beyond icing, but not 100% sure) that was well left of Young's net...Young came out to play it with his stick, and somehow it went off his stick, through his legs and into his net.  I remember Kirk Muller cracking up right on the ice...that made it 6-4 Devils.  Young was awful...gave up 3 goals on 9 shots that game.

This game:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/199010270NJD.html

oh thats right i looked at the wrong column lol

[Steadevils]

3 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

Well sure... but... looking at how many "good" first round pick we've had through those years... there was either 7 or 9 rounds of picks every year... so say i give you those few guys you named were good picks.... 17(and some of them are really not great) through something like... 150+ picks ? It's still not great at all lol 

Yeah I mean if Cam Janssen is what is making it a useful draft class that is a reallllyyy a low bar...Every draft has good players up and down the draft and the amount of misses the devils had from 2000 to 2010 really must be a statistical oddity. I would love to see a full teams draft history and sort it by a statistic like games played from 2000 to 2010. I would have to guess we are in last place on that. If someone knows of another team that has drafted terribly I will compare 1 to 1, but haven't found an easy way to capture that data across the league. Who has been the consistently worst team over that time frame? Florida? Now obviously this method runs in to some issues because it is easier to draft and accrue NHL games on bad teams and also a lot of florida's picks were top 10, but with player movement (so players you draft ending up on good teams) you would think it would still be somewhat close. Florida also has a lot more players drafted these years that are still active so this gap will widen. 

Games played to date from draft classes of 2000 to 2010

Florida: 9889

Devils: 8058

To take a team that is similar in success in the early 2000's to failure now: Detroit. 

Detroit: 11907

 

Any other contenders? I'd say it'd be difficult to find a worst drafter from 2000 to 20010 than the devil's and that is why we are where we are today. 

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

oh thats right i looked at the wrong column lol

I should've double checked that. I’m pretty sure nobody who played 10 games has their name on the Cup more than once. 

Is there??

[Steadevils]

A few more quick ones who I thought might be in the running to be worse using this imperfect method:

The Atlanta Thrashers - who drafted themselves out of existence- 

9648 GP drafted

Avalanche (another team who were annual contenders when we were good last)

11100 GP drafted

Islanders

12025 GP drafted

[SterioDesign]

3 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

I should've double checked that. I’m pretty sure nobody who played 10 games has their name on the Cup more than once. 

Is there??

i dont think it would but well he was a goalie and mostly a backup i think so it could have happened in this case. 

[mfitz804]

2 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

i dont think it would but well he was a goalie and mostly a backup i think so it could have happened in this case. 

Ok he didn’t play, but he was dressed. The backup goalie goes on the Cup, no?

[Jimmy Leeds]

I'm still pissed we drafted Neil Brady 6 picks before Brian Leetch

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Just now, Jimmy Leeds said:

I'm still pissed we drafted Neil Brady 6 picks before Brian Leetch

I would've happily taken Vincent Damphousse (#6) or Craig Janney (#13) as well...though it's all hindsight of course...and of course, every teams makes picks that they'd like to do over. 

[Jimmy Leeds]

24 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I would've happily taken Vincent Damphousse (#6) or Craig Janney (#13) as well...though it's all hindsight of course...and of course, every teams makes picks that they'd like to do over. 

Yep

Especially this one. Rocky as well. But even that year we got Dano and Verbeek.  Hextall was a 6th Rounder that year as was the Haitian Sensation.    I still have no clue how he just disappeared off the hockey radar after that decent 91-92 season

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy Leeds said:

Yep

Especially this one. Rocky as well. But even that year we got Dano and Verbeek.  Hextall was a 6th Rounder that year as was the Haitian Sensation.    I still have no clue how he just disappeared off the hockey radar after that decent 91-92 season

MacLean missing the whole 1991-92 season due to the ACL tear (think it was the last preseason game...I know it happened against the Isles) opened up a spot for Vilgrain...who knows if he even would've gotten the opportunity otherwise.  Yeah, I remember him starting off hot and then cooling off a bit, but overall his numbers weren't bad for a first-year player (first full season, anyway).  I think his age probably worked against him a little too...he turned 29 as the 1991-92 season came to a close.  Who knows if race was ever a factor...at quick glance his AHL and other minor league numbers look pretty good, but it's fair to remember that offensive numbers in general were more bloated then (I think AHL teams were averaging about 3.7 GF when he was playing, and it should also be pointed out that Vilgrain was a considerable overager compared to many of his AHL and IHL peers).  There's gotta be a reason why he only played six more NHL games after that 1991-92 season...especially with recent additions like the Lightning and the Sharks looking for bodies. 

[DevsMan84]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

MacLean missing the whole 1991-92 season due to the ACL tear (think it was the last preseason game...I know it happened against the Isles) opened up a spot for Vilgrain...who knows if he even would've gotten the opportunity otherwise.  Yeah, I remember him starting off hot and then cooling off a bit, but overall his numbers weren't bad for a first-year player (first full season, anyway).  I think his age probably worked against him a little too...he turned 29 as the 1991-92 season came to a close.  Who knows if race was ever a factor...at quick glance his AHL and other minor league numbers look pretty good, but it's fair to remember that offensive numbers in general were more bloated then (I think AHL teams were averaging about 3.7 GF when he was playing, and it should also be pointed out that Vilgrain was a considerable overager compared to many of his AHL and IHL peers).  There's gotta be a reason why he only played six more NHL games after that 1991-92 season...especially with recent additions like the Lightning and the Sharks looking for bodies. 

That and those early 90's seasons, especially 91-92 and 92-93, it seemed like getting 50 goals and/or 100 points was not that big of a deal.  It seemed like the entire league was a giant shooting gallery and even some of those tertiary players were getting career years in there.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

12 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

That and those early 90's seasons, especially 91-92 and 92-93, it seemed like getting 50 goals and/or 100 points was not that big of a deal.  It seemed like the entire league was a giant shooting gallery and even some of those tertiary players were getting career years in there.

Yeah 92-93 was especially nuts and the real outlier...Lemieux put up 69 goals and 160 points in just 60 GP, and you had 14 players score 50+ goals, and 21 who managed 100 points or better (clearly going from 80 games in 1991-92 to 84 games in 1992-93 didn't hurt anyone's point totals).  And Lemieux was only THIRD in goals scored that year...Mogilny scored 76 in 77 GP, and Selanne tied him with 76 goals in 84 GP (five players managed 60+ goals that year).  The following season saw things fall back to (for back then) normal...eight players with 100 or more points, 9 players with 50+, with only one of those nine reaching 60 goals (Pavel Bure).  1991-92 was similar (9 players with 100 or more points, only four with 50+ goals, though Brett Hull outpaced everyone else by a wide margin, with 70 goals). 

1995-96 still had some offense too...12 players with 100+ points (Lemieux with another 69-goal season and 161 points, in only 70 GP), and 8 more 50+ goal scorers (Jagr also cracked 60 goals that season, with 62).  You saw numbers really start to drop off in 1996-97...only two players with 100+ points, and four 50+ goal scorers.  The following season saw just one 100+ guy and four 50+ goal scorers...there were three 100+ pointers in 1998-99, but not one 50-goal man.  Live Puck was dying out pretty quickly.

[DevsMan84]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Yeah 92-93 was especially nuts and the real outlier...Lemieux put up 69 goals and 160 points in just 60 GP, and you had 14 players score 50+ goals, and 21 who managed 100 points or better (clearly going from 80 games in 1991-92 to 84 games in 1992-93 didn't hurt anyone's point totals).  And Lemieux was only THIRD in goals scored that year...Mogilny scored 76 in 77 GP, and Selanne tied him with 76 goals in 84 GP (five players managed 60+ goals that year).  The following season saw things fall back to (for back then) normal...eight players with 100 or more points, 9 players with 50+, with only one of those nine reaching 60 goals (Pavel Bure).  1991-92 was similar (9 players with 100 or more points, only four with 50+ goals, though Brett Hull outpaced everyone else by a wide margin, with 70 goals). 

1995-96 still had some offense too...12 players with 100+ points (Lemieux with another 69-goal season and 161 points, in only 70 GP), and 8 more 50+ goal scorers (Jagr also cracked 60 goals that season, with 62).  You saw numbers really start to drop off in 1996-97...only two players with 100+ points, and four 50+ goal scorers.  The following season saw just one 100+ guy and four 50+ goal scorers...there were three 100+ pointers in 1998-99, but not one 50-goal man.  Live Puck was dying out pretty quickly.

It's still somewhat amazing that no Devil has yet to put up 50 goals and/or 100 points.  Elias, Muller, Verbeek, Hall, Parise, and Gionta came close to either one of those or both but still no dice.  MacLean might have had 50 goals in 91-92 if it wasn't for that injury you mentioned as well.

Edited March 13, 2019 by DevsMan84

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

It's still somewhat amazing that no Devil has yet to put up 50 goals and/or 100 points.  Elias, Muller, Verbeek, Hall, Parise, and Gionta came close to either one of those or both but still no dice.  MacLean might have had 50 goals in 91-92 if it wasn't for that injury you mentioned as well.

I'll forever remain convinced that he would have scored 50 that year.  Including the playoffs, he scored 50 in 85 GP in 1990-91...he was getting so close...and he was just playing with so much confidence.  He was shredding it in preseason...I forget how many preseason games the Devils played in 1991-92, but I think he scored nine goals and just seemed ready to explode.  He was one of those guys who sadly was never the same after he recovered...took him a while to get going once he came back in 1992-93 (about 30 games before he started scoring consistently again), and then his 37 goals in 1993-94 was the very last time he cracked 30.  At quick glance, it looks like he had a bit of a resurgence as a Ranger in 1998-99 (28 G in 82 GP), but considering that he was getting a lot of ice time (mostly out of necessity...he was second in ice time for Ranger forwards that season), his production wasn't really anything that special.  Looked he was kind of a poor man's top-liner that season. 

[Jimmy Leeds]

I loved those early 90's Devs teams.  You could feel it coming together