Taylor Hall to AZ, 1st Rnd pick, 3rd Rnd Conditonal Pick, Bahl and 2 Prospects.Dvs Retain 50% salary

[Daniel]

11 minutes ago, titans04 said:

 

If you read between the lines, it sounds like Shero has not been willing to offer him a max term deal. 

He better get that "massive" return the anonymous executive says he'll get.  The best thing we can hope for is Montreal going on some kind of win streak and thinking they have a shot. 

[HellOnICE]

I don't like how Shero is handling Hynes at all, but I don't have issue with this situation yet. It's been talked about a lot - but there's no way Hall gets the deal he 'wants' here. I still tilt my head at how Colorado can pay him too blowing their salary structure out of the water. Hall may never get that extra gear again speed wise, it's a big risk right now.

Edited December 2, 2019 by HellOnICE

[titans04]

I'm out on the guy. He had A career year here no doubt about that.  He's averaged 57 points over his 9 year career. He had 93 in 17-18. He's not worth a max deal imo and his bs I can't hear you move was just that bs. The guy has 2 even strength 5v5 goals in 25 games. Get what you can and move on. Sooner the better.

[Daniel]

6 minutes ago, titans04 said:

I'm out on the guy. He had A career year here no doubt about that.  He's averaged 57 points over his 9 year career. He had 93 in 17-18. He's not worth a max deal imo and his bs I can't hear you move was just that bs. The guy has 2 even strength 5v5 goals in 25 games. Get what you can and move on. Sooner the better.

On a team that is as poorly coached as we know it is, he's still on pace for like a 70 point season give or take a few points.

If you want to put things in perspective, if you changed the names of all of our defenseman so you couldn't go on reputation but only how they are performing this year, not a single one would be good enough to be in the top six for the Rangers who aren't really sporting our 2000 blue line.  For our forwards, it's pretty much the same thing except it would be hard not to notice Jack Hughes' skills and wanting him on your team.  Maybe you could say the same thing about Blake Coleman so far as having a skill set your team another team would want, but not many others at the moment anyway.  This is how absolutely terrible the coaches are. 

 

[titans04]

Sorry I don't buy it's ALL on the coaches.  Some of these guys especially the veterans shouldn't be playing as poorly as they are. This organization currently has issues at so many levels. Fire Hynes that's the easy move but imo all it will lead to is a dead cat bounce and then the reality will set in this roster at this date (based on age in some cases) just isn't good enough - still. Some will get better with age and others will continue to prove their best days are long gone. Selling off Vats at the deadline should they do it will do wonders for the already crap back end.

Edited December 2, 2019 by titans04

[Daniel]

Just now, titans04 said:

Sorry I don't buy it's ALL on the coaches.  Some of these guys especially the veterans shouldn't be playing as poorly as they are. This organization currently has issues at so many levels. Fire Hynes that's the easy move but imo it it will lead to is a dead cat bounce and then the reality will set in this roster at this date (based on age in some cases) just isn't good enough - still. Some will get better with age and others will continue to proven their best days are long gone. Selling off Vats at the deadline should they do it will do wonders for the already crap back end.

This goes back to last year, and yes, I believe that it is all of the coaches who do not belong  in the NHL.  In fact, it should not surprise that Hynes, Nesserdine, Kowalsky and Grier had zero NHL coaching experience occupying their current spots with the team.  Perhaps another reason why Shero can't fire Hynes because there is no one in the organization that could plausibly step in on an interim basis. 

Under these circumstances it's very hard to know what you have.

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, ajsgolf said:

Let me ask everybody, if Hall wanted to resign with NJ would you want him on the team at this point or would you only want to trade him?

 

59 minutes ago, MB3 said:

That’s an absolute no brainer; he’s an mvp-caliber superstar. But that’s pretty evidently not the situation we’re in.

Yup, I’m not going to trade him just to trade him. What for, to hope to get an asset that may one day be as good as he already is? 

[SterioDesign]

its not on Hynes for our guys missing the net like they've been all season long. For hall to hit like 56 crossbars. It's not on Hynes if Cory couldnt stop a beach ball. It'snot his fault the goaltending was terrible overall earlier this season and it cost us many games cause goalies couldnt make an extra important stop. It's not on Hynes for all the bad passes we've seen. There's certainly a lot of blame to put on the players too.

But of course it's way easier to pick a scapegoat and put ALL the blame on him.

Edited December 2, 2019 by SterioDesign

[mfitz804]

4 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

its not on Hynes for our guys missing the net like they've been all season long. For hall to hit like 56 crossbars. It's not on Hynes if Cory couldnt stop a beach ball. It'snot his fault the goaltending was terrible overall earlier this season and it cost us many games cause goalies couldnt make an extra important stop. It's not on Hynes for all the bad passes we've seen. There's certainly a lot of blame to put on the players too.

But of course it's way easier to pick a scapegoat and put ALL the blame on him.

Absolutely. I’m not convinced firing Hynes turns the team around. But it might be the kick in the ass the players need. 

[SterioDesign]

6 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Absolutely. I’m not convinced firing Hynes turns the team around. But it might be the kick in the ass the players need. 

Yeah same. If we go through all our games. We got more losses from bad goaltending than anything else. Not that our team has been playing incredibly well either. But i'm sure that's part of the reason why Shero has a longer leash with Hynes cause he knows we was stuck with Cory which was kiiiiiiiiiind of on him... but again not really cause Cory was there when Shero got the job.

 

[jagknife]

29 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

its not on Hynes for our guys missing the net like they've been all season long. For hall to hit like 56 crossbars. It's not on Hynes if Cory couldnt stop a beach ball. It'snot his fault the goaltending was terrible overall earlier this season and it cost us many games cause goalies couldnt make an extra important stop. It's not on Hynes for all the bad passes we've seen. There's certainly a lot of blame to put on the players too.

But of course it's way easier to pick a scapegoat and put ALL the blame on him.

So three years ago (was it?) when the team was missing the net in epic fashion, we all said there is no way they can keep missing as bad as they are and puck luck will surely turn around eventually. It never did, and we’re sitting here having the same discussion of how they cannot be possibly me missing as often as they do.

no one is absolving the players of any wrong doing, we have a good number of passengers, zero question. But for fvcks sake, if you watch these games, and we all know you do, and you aren’t saying Hynes, his system and his brain dead coaching buddies are a major part of the problem, then I really don’t know what to tel you

[NJDevs4978]

When almost all the players are underachieving and look like sh!t you better believe it's a coaching issue.  I saw the same rationalizations for Mac in 2010...can't blame him when the players suck.  Yeah okay - if it's two or three players it's one thing, when it's almost the whole roster at the best the system isn't exactly getting the best out of everyone.

[SterioDesign]

23 minutes ago, jagknife said:

So three years ago (was it?) when the team was missing the net in epic fashion, we all said there is no way they can keep missing as bad as they are and puck luck will surely turn around eventually. It never did, and we’re sitting here having the same discussion of how they cannot be possibly me missing as often as they do.

no one is absolving the players of any wrong doing, we have a good number of passengers, zero question. But for fvcks sake, if you watch these games, and we all know you do, and you aren’t saying Hynes, his system and his brain dead coaching buddies are a major part of the problem, then I really don’t know what to tel you

For the record i want Hynes gone too.

I just know that if nothing is done right that there must be a reason. Something is obviously brewing, there's no way Shero sees this and think things are fine, there's a reason Tom went behind the bench for awhile.

[jagknife]

3 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

For the record i want Hynes gone too.

I just know that if nothing is done right that there must be a reason. Something is obviously brewing, there's no way Shero sees this and think things are fine, there's a reason Tom went behind the bench for awhile.

I’m glad you are too.

I’m beyond tired of waiting and watching (or hearing about in yesterday’s case) listless efforts game in and game out.

How many times did we all vent to one another last year that “if they put out 60 full minutes of hockey, we’d be a lot better”? Same crap goes for this season, and as the mountain gets steeper, and literally nothing changes, I’m getting more and more fed up up the chain. 

[SterioDesign]

Just now, jagknife said:

I’m glad you are too.

I’m beyond tired of waiting and watching (or hearing about in yesterday’s case) listless efforts game in and game out.

How many times did we all vent to one another last year that “if they put out 60 full minutes of hockey, we’d be a lot better”? Same crap goes for this season, and as the mountain gets steeper, and literally nothing changes, I’m getting more and more fed up up the chain. 

I mean, right now i see it the same way as 2 summers ago when fans were bitching that Shero was sitting on his ass not doing anything. Obviously he was not sitting on his ass not doing anything. There's so much sh!t going on in the background that we have no idea about. I suspect the same thing is happening right now.

Shero fired Therrien in Pittsburgh when things was not going in the right direction. He did it before but he had a good replacement in place for that.

For the record as much as i'm protective of Shero right now. I'm probably the one faulting him the most here for not dealing with the whole Hall thing before the season started. I knew once we started the season with him that we were risking way too much. But i also know it's the first time he let that go for that long so i know there's likely a logical explanation in the background. 

[NJDfan1711]

20 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

You can intend anything you want, it’s irrelevant if Hall does not intend to re-sign, and that’s pretty clearly the case. If he was going to sign, it would be done already. 

Both of those moves need to be made now, but the order of those moves is completely irrelevant. 

Unless hand picking his own coach would make him want to stay and you’re willing to give him that power. 

Yeah, I didn't necessarily mean now - because I think Hynes should have been fired a while ago.  At the present time, it would seem too little too late, but I absolutely believe Hynes should have gone first.  Now, it appears they'll both be gone eventually.

[NJDfan1711]

Duplicate post

Edited December 2, 2019 by NJDfan1711

[jagknife]

8 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

I mean, right now i see it the same way as 2 summers ago when fans were bitching that Shero was sitting on his ass not doing anything. Obviously he was not sitting on his ass not doing anything. There's so much sh!t going on in the background that we have no idea about. I suspect the same thing is happening right now.

Shero fired Therrien in Pittsburgh when things was not going in the right direction. He did it before but he had a good replacement in place for that.

For the record as much as i'm protective of Shero right now. I'm probably the one faulting him the most here for not dealing with the whole Hall thing before the season started. I knew once we started the season with him that we were risking way too much. But i also know it's the first time he let that go for that long so i know there's likely a logical explanation in the background. 

The reason I find inactivity to be worse now rather than two summers ago is the results are literally speaking for themselves right now. Right now, we're playing like dog sh!t. Right now, we're wasting points and watching anything resembling playoffs disappear. Right now, we have a listless team that cant get themselves up for a freaking rivalry game which they controlled nearly every aspect of just a month ago. This team didn't just suddenly forget how to play hockey, and they certainly didn't forget how to get up for a game. I think it is in part a mutiny, regardless of how much our powder puff writers say "they love the coach", you don't stop being motivated unless you hate the coach or you simply don't give a sh!t.

I know I stopped trying as hard when my new boss took over cause he was a piece of sh!t and took all of the credit for things he kept us at work and away from our families for. Maybe this is a reach or maybe the similarities actually exist there, but upward discipline exists and we could be seeing it on the ice.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

8 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

I mean, right now i see it the same way as 2 summers ago when fans were bitching that Shero was sitting on his ass not doing anything. Obviously he was not sitting on his ass not doing anything. There's so much sh!t going on in the background that we have no idea about. I suspect the same thing is happening right now.

Shero fired Therrien in Pittsburgh when things was not going in the right direction. He did it before but he had a good replacement in place for that.

For the record as much as i'm protective of Shero right now. I'm probably the one faulting him the most here for not dealing with the whole Hall thing before the season started. I knew once we started the season with him that we were risking way too much. But i also know it's the first time he let that go for that long so i know there's likely a logical explanation in the background. 

You're still missing the nuances that go into these decisions...you keep taking the same flawed approach in trying to take a "one size fits all approach" to these matters. 

With Lou, he thought most of his teams from 2004-on were legit SC contenders, especially since he figured that he had the goalie who had already proved that he could take them there.  So he took a "home run" approach most of the time...he felt that he might as well go with the players that he was most comfortable with, even if it meant that yes, he could eventually lose them for nothing as UFAs in the offseason...he wasn't interested in moving those guys for picks or prospects that may or may not help him down the line, or couldn't help the current product...Lou was living in the right now throughout that stretch, all the time.  I'm not endorsing or criticizing this approach, or inviting a debate on it...just saying that's what his thinking was. 

This situation is simply not the same.  We've already been over the fact that Hall's injury (which you keep overlooking, if not flat-out ignoring) made things more complicated, especially from a trade value standpoint...but I think this was a simple case of there being enough communication between Shero and Hall's party that Shero believed that Hall would be open to staying, as long as Shero could build a team that could at least be a consistent threat to make the playoffs sooner than later.  I think Shero relished this challenge and did what he could to try to make that happen.

We'll never know what Shero's Plan A was, if it actually involved Subban and Gusev (and to a lesser extent Simmonds, though he was clearly meant to be a short-term move), or if those were Plan B/C moves once other players were off the board, but he was clearly willing to take some gambles to show Hall that he meant business. 

So to recap, Shero's gambles were the following: 

1) Hope that Schneider and Blackwood could continue off what both had shown in the closing weeks of the season.

RESULT:  Almost complete failure, mostly because Cory went into pure sh!tstorm mode yet again.  I don't blame Blackwood as much because, as Neb00rs has pointed out a couple of times, Cory sh!tting the bed yet AGAIN forced Blackwood to try to become a #1 goalie on a team that has plenty of issues in front of him.  To Shero's credit, he did about as much as he could in a situation like this (so early in the season)...he got Cory the fvck out of here and brought in a goalie who at least had some NHL experience (and I think offers more than Lack could have)...not like Shero was going to find a major upgrade.  Credit to Shero for not letting Cory's contract continue to give him endless chances to play.

 

2) Hope that Subban's overall down year (which looks even worse when one sees that he basically disappeared offensively after a solid start) was a blip, and that he could regain his 2017-18 form. 

RESULT:  More and more, it's becoming clear that Nashville didn't mind not getting a sexy return for Subban because they just wanted to get a declining Subban off their team and that money off their books...sure, of course they wanted money to spend elsewhere, but it's obvious that they knew a hell of a lot more about Subban than the Devils did, and Subban's lack of offense is a continued trend from last season...in his last 59 regular season games, he now has 7 goals and 11 assists (and no points in his last 13 GP).  I won't kill Shero for this one, but this deal looks more disastrous by the day...the kind that can shake a player like Hall's confidence that his GM really knows what he's doing, or is capable of finding the right pieces in trying to move forward.  Subban is a major setback.

 

3) Hope that Jack Hughes could be the kind of kid that could almost skip the develop cycle and pay dividends almost immediately (like we've seen in rare cases).

RESULT:  I think the guy will absolutely be a star player, but it's obviously not going to happen immediately.  Tri had him picking up about 40 points (assuming he plays close to a full season's slate of games of course), and it's starting to look like he might be right (I'm still hoping Jack gets on a roll at some point this year, where it seems like it's all clicking, but I don't think that this year's roster will allow for that...and of course now he's hurt).

 

4) Hope that his hand-picked coach in Hynes is still the guy to grow with this team and help make it a playoff contender.

RESULT:  Not much needs to be said here that hasn't been already.  He's gotta go.  Should've happened already.  Hall has always had good things to say about him, but that hardly matters anymore.  The team should simply be better than it is, and Hynes appears to have no answers at all for anything. 

 

So basically, as many GMs will do, Shero took some risks that he thought would pay off...one of them being that he'd be able to keep Hall (as long as Hall showed that he was healthy) if Shero made the right moves to propel the Devils forward.  Unfortunately, as has happened with Shero's personnel moves a lot lately, not much has gone his way...and I feel for him big-time there, because he hasn't made a single move that had me screaming "What the fvck is he doing?!"...for all of the luck he got in getting two overall #1 picks to work with, he's been pretty unlucky elsewhere...to me, that all started with MoJo (a move that was a no-brainer at the time).  Even though now that I've done more research on Subban and can see that this deal had blow-up potential, I didn't feel that way at the time, and like I've said in other posts, the Devils had enough soon-to-come-off money on the books that taking on Subban's cap hit wasn't going to cripple them like it might other teams.  I understood taking the chance when Shero did. 

Like I've said in other posts, the good news here is that, unlike Lou and his teams (or more how he perceived those teams), Shero is not going to gamble on a non-existent playoff run, or that by keeping Hall though the end of the year, that he can re-sign him...the Devils aren't fully dead yet, but once they are, and it's no longer debatable that Hall's future doesn't involve the Devils, Shero will deal him off.  This won't be a case of losing him for nothing...yes, he can get hurt, but any player not named Marleau can get hurt at any time.  And if/when a deal is getting close, I'm sure Shero will sit Hall down and not risk losing him to injury.  I think as a GM who was very open to keeping Hall around and did try to expedite putting a team that convince Hall to stay, Shero's played this pretty well.  I don't have any qualms with how he's handled Hall one bit, I really don't. 

Of course, why in fvck Hynes is still here...

[SterioDesign]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

You're still missing the nuances that go into these decisions...you keep taking the same flawed approach in trying to take a "one size fits all approach" to these matters. 

You understand that im criticizing Lou for taking a flawed approach "one size fits all approach" with how he dealt with UFAs right? And i'm the one saying for some players he had to approach it differently.

And you're criticizing me for taking a "flawed one size fits all approach" with how i see things? lol

If anything let's look at history and realize this is not a hindsight 20/20 ridiculous statement at all. Almost every time Lou or Shero went against the way i've been preaching, it bite them in the ass. (Well Shero not yet but it might). There's no downside to it, if you want to keep the guy just get it done early like Shero has been doing so far. Or like most GM ever did it.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

33 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

You understand that im criticizing Lou for taking a flawed approach "one size fits all approach" with how he dealt with UFAs right? And i'm the one saying for some players he had to approach it differently.

And you're criticizing me for taking a "flawed one size fits all approach" with how i see things? lol

If anything let's look at history and realize this is not a hindsight 20/20 ridiculous statement at all. Almost every time Lou or Shero went against the way i've been preaching, it bite them in the ass. (Well Shero not yet but it might). There's no downside to it, if you want to keep the guy just get it done early like Shero has been doing so far. Or like most GM ever did it.

I type a long detailed post with full explanations (to flesh your "logical explanation" as to why Shero took this path with Hall), and this is the response?  I like ya dude, I do, but your teenaged responses at times...goddamn...

C'mon, you know what I was talking about...you've always taken a pretty "one right way" stance when it comes to handling UFAs.  It's why you're getting on Shero for not doing it your way this time.  Like I and others have mentioned and like I just detailed in my previous post, there's a number of friggin' VERY VALID REASONS why Shero didn't "get it done early" in this particular situation, and you're pretty much ignoring all of that and way oversimplifying. 

So I'll simplify my previous post...Shero took some gambles, one of which was that if his other gambles worked, and Hall was healthy and productive, and the team was playing well, then Hall could re-sign with the Devils in-season, and Shero could feel a lot better about paying Hall what figured to be a hell of a lot of coin.  The gambles haven't paid off.  Shero can still deal off Hall, and if anything, Hall's at least been productive enough that some team should be willing to take a chance on him, either as a rental or re-signing...maybe Shero doesn't get as much for him as we would've liked, but again, given that he was INJURED and had missed a boatload of games last season, the same likely would've held true in this past offseason, had Shero tried to move him then.   

You're not saying this exactly, but you're making it sound like Shero has already screwed this up because he didn't strictly adhere to the SD way. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[MadDog2020]

https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/five-potential-trade-destinations-for-taylor-hall

[Devilsfan118]

Colorado seems to just make too much sense.

Sakic is tough, though.  Not sure how much value you're going to get out of him.

[MadDog2020]

22 minutes ago, Devilsfan118 said:

Colorado seems to just make too much sense.

Sakic is tough, though.  Not sure how much value you're going to get out of him.

It’ll obviously depend on if they can sign Hall to an extension. 

[SterioDesign]

6 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I type a long detailed post with full explanations (to flesh your "logical explanation" as to why Shero took this path with Hall), and this is the response?  I like ya dude, I do, but your teenaged responses at times...goddamn...

C'mon, you know what I was talking about...you've always taken a pretty "one right way" stance when it comes to handling UFAs.  It's why you're getting on Shero for not doing it your way this time.  Like I and others have mentioned and like I just detailed in my previous post, there's a number of friggin' VERY VALID REASONS why Shero didn't "get it done early" in this particular situation, and you're pretty much ignoring all of that and way oversimplifying. 

So I'll simplify my previous post...Shero took some gambles, one of which was that if his other gambles worked, and Hall was healthy and productive, and the team was playing well, then Hall could re-sign with the Devils in-season, and Shero could feel a lot better about paying Hall what figured to be a hell of a lot of coin.  The gambles haven't paid off.  Shero can still deal off Hall, and if anything, Hall's at least been productive enough that some team should be willing to take a chance on him, either as a rental or re-signing...maybe Shero doesn't get as much for him as we would've liked, but again, given that he was INJURED and had missed a boatload of games last season, the same likely would've held true in this past offseason, had Shero tried to move him then.   

You're not saying this exactly, but you're making it sound like Shero has already screwed this up because he didn't strictly adhere to the SD way. 

Dude to be honest i'm sorry but i barely read your post. Do you have an idea how exhausted I am to have long discussions with you about this specific subject? lol What's the point? We've been having this same conversation literally over a hundred times... for what? 10 years? We just don't see things the same way and we'll never agree on that subject. You think you're right and i think i am.

I've learn that it's a dead end and I don't quote you when you mention something about it here and i don't quite understand why you still try to engage with me about this every time lol

Plus nobody here want to read this either

Love you

Edited December 2, 2019 by SterioDesign