Taylor Hall to AZ, 1st Rnd pick, 3rd Rnd Conditonal Pick, Bahl and 2 Prospects.Dvs Retain 50% salary

[Rob_Ottawa]

I have zero loyalty to any player on the team right now. WTF has Zajac ever done for us? One cup run whoopie. His contract was an albatross and rightly derided throughout the league.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Rob_Ottawa

[Nicomo]

14 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I'd also hate to see him not retire a Devil, and I just don't know what he would bring to another team that's looking to make a playoff push.  He's the type of guy you want in the regular season - he's durable, and good at faceoffs and penalty killing.  What he isn't, is physical, fast, or a pure goal scorer.  

You don’t have to win face offs or kill penalties in the playoffs?

[Nicomo]

4 minutes ago, Rob_Ottawa said:

I have zero loyalty to any player on the team right now. WTF has Zajac ever done for us? One cup run whoopie. His contract was an albatross and rightly derided throughout the league.

[DJ Eco]

I get the feeling Shero sees what a lot of us see. Hall's 25 points in 29 games is pretty good window dressing on what has still been a pretty lackluster 1/3 of the season so far. Hall just doesn't seem like the player who can command a game on his stick or pull something out of nothing, the way he looked his Hart year. His goals haven't been in big moments, he hasn't made big game-changing plays the way some others on our team (much younger than him) have.

Those 25 points look good from the outside and help cover up some pretty inconsistent play, so it makes sense if Shero's trying to push this trade as soon as possible while his value is intact.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

32 minutes ago, DJ Eco said:

I get the feeling Shero sees what a lot of us see. Hall's 25 points in 29 games is pretty good window dressing on what has still been a pretty lackluster 1/3 of the season so far. Hall just doesn't seem like the player who can command a game on his stick or pull something out of nothing, the way he looked his Hart year. His goals haven't been in big moments, he hasn't made big game-changing plays the way some others on our team (much younger than him) have.

Those 25 points look good from the outside and help cover up some pretty inconsistent play, so it makes sense if Shero's trying to push this trade as soon as possible while his value is intact.

I was all for taking the plunge and re-signing him (even though I strongly suspected this would become a bad contract).

Though I'm not fully against it even now, more and more I'm OK with him going.  I think the promise of what Taylor Hall can be will often exceed what Hall actually is.  It all came together for him during that one MVP season...and it was a glorious season for him, no doubt.  But what I was hoping was the beginning of a run of very good to great seasons looks more like a career year that he won't ever come close to matching. 

The funny thing is I think we all would've celebrated Hall re-signing initially...and within a few years, with still a lot of term left on his deal, fans would've started turning on him...mostly because I don't think he's ever going to live up to what he'll get paid...and that's if he's not missing several games. 

When he is actually dealt, I will be a bit bummed...far from crushed, but it will be a reminder that four years after he was acquired, the Devils weren't able to get where they were hoping to go.  I do think Shero has a plan, but I don't imagine it involved two lost seasons after it looked like progress had been made in 2017-18...not that I thought that the Devils were automatically going to be a playoff team every year (the process isn't always linear), but for a number of reasons, a hell of a lot has gone to sh!t...starting with the goalie who should've been a nice building block falling off a cliff.  And I'm sure though Shero knew that a healthy and reasonably productive Hall could be moved at some point during his walk year if need be...that's definitely not was Ray was hoping for. 

As for Hall himself...no hard feelings.  It's not his fault that Schneider's steep decline made the goaltending situation a complete mess, with guys like KK and Blackwood being asked to do too much.  Not on Hall that Shero's deals (many of which did make sense on paper) have not been paying dividends lately.  Or that PK's game has been a trainwreck...or that too many defensemen here simply aren't that good.  I'm sure some will slather Hall with the "loser" paintbrush, but I don't think that's fair...he can be frustrating and like I said, with him you definitely get more promise than performance at times, but one guy can only do so much. 

Shero is about to be flush with some serious cap room again...really hope the next round, whatever it may be, brings back more than a faded shell-of-himself former star who's making a fortune.  Not that I'm on the "Shero sucks" bus, but I gotta see some real progress over the next couple of years. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[NJDfan1711]

49 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

You don’t have to win face offs or kill penalties in the playoffs?

Didn't really mean it that way... penalty killing is always important, of course, but I feel like during the playoffs most of us probably agree that the refs let things go quite a bit more, so that's usually a little less important.  And as for the faceoffs, he's traditionally been good at them, but I feel like even that's gone downhill a bit lately. 

[Nicomo]

1 minute ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Didn't really mean it that way... penalty killing is always important, of course, but I feel like during the playoffs most of us probably agree that the refs let things go quite a bit more, so that's usually a little less important.  And as for the faceoffs, he's traditionally been good at them, but I feel like even that's gone downhill a bit lately. 

Yeah, it actually has this season. Most years he’s at least in the mid 50’s and he’s currently at 52%

Nico has actually closed the gap a bit as far as Zajac being our best by far. 

[SterioDesign]

24 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I was all for taking the plunge and re-signing him (even though I strongly suspected this would become a bad contract).

Though I'm not fully against it even now, more and more I'm OK with him going.  I think the promise of what Taylor Hall can be will often exceed what Hall actually is.  It all came together for him during that one MVP season...and it was a glorious season for him, no doubt.  But what I was hoping was the beginning of a run of very good to great seasons looks more like a career year that he won't ever come close to matching. 

The funny thing is I think we all would've celebrated Hall re-signing initially...and within a few years, with still a lot of term left on his deal, fans would've started turning on him...mostly because I don't think he's ever going to live up to what he'll get paid...and that's if he's not missing several games. 

When he is actually dealt, I will be a bit bummed...far from crushed, but it will be a reminder that four years after he was acquired, the Devils weren't able to get where they were hoping to go.  I do think Shero has a plan, but I don't imagine it involved two lost seasons after it looked like progress had been made in 2017-18...not that I thought that the Devils were automatically going to be a playoff team every year (the process isn't always linear), but for a number of reasons, a hell of a lot has gone to sh!t...starting with the goalie who should've been a nice building block falling off a cliff.  And I'm sure though Shero knew that a healthy and reasonably productive Hall could be moved at some point during his walk year if need be...that's definitely not was Ray was hoping for. 

As for Hall himself...no hard feelings.  It's not his fault that Schneider's steep decline made the goaltending situation a complete mess, with guys like KK and Blackwood being asked to do too much.  Not on Hall that Shero's deals (many of which did make sense on paper) have not been paying dividends lately.  Or that PK's game has been a trainwreck...or that too many defensemen here simply aren't that good.  I'm sure some will slather Hall with the "loser" paintbrush, but I don't think that's fair...he can be frustrating and like I said, with him you definitely get more promise than performance at times, but one guy can only do so much. 

Shero is about to be flush with some serious cap room again...really hope the next round, whatever it may be, brings back more than a faded shell-of-himself former star who's making a fortune.  Not that I'm on the "Shero sucks" bus, but I gotta see some real progress over the next couple of years. 

I guess the way im judging decision making in general is judging the decision when it's taken based on all the information at hand and thats it. Cause for a GM too often you can make bad decisions that won't hurt you much just like you can make good decisions that could hurt you. It's results driven but most of the time the results are out of your hands. 

You can cross the road without looking a hundred times depending on where you're crossing and you may never get hit. Doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do.

For example the Schneider trade was a great move at the time, it didnt pan out and we'd likely be wayyyy better off now if we never made that trade but that's cause Schneider's game dropped out of the blues, that's not Lou's fault.

Shero also made many great trades on paper. But many of them simply didnt pan out cause the players sh!t the bed.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

I guess the way im judging decision making in general is judging the decision when it's taken based on all the information at hand and thats it. Cause for a GM too often you can make bad decisions that won't hurt you much just like you can make good decisions that could hurt you. It's results driven but most of the time the results are out of your hands. 

You can cross the road without looking a hundred times depending on where you're crossing and you may never get hit. Doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do.

For example the Schneider trade was a great move at the time, it didnt pan out and we'd likely be wayyyy better off now if we never made that trade but that's cause Schneider's game dropped out of the blues, that's not Lou's fault.

Shero also made many great trades on paper. But many of them simply didnt pan out cause the players sh!t the bed.

I've said this before about Shero...apart from getting lucky with the draft lottery twice, he's had incredibly rotten luck as of late, with "makes sense" deals not working out in his favor.  On that level I really feel for him.  Like I've said about him, there aren't really any moves that he's made that I've had a "C'mon Ray WTF kind of deal is THAT?!" reaction to.  The only quibble that I have is that I'm not sure that he or those he works with took a hard enough look at Subban's 2018-19 season, which did have red flags...but they had the cap room to take the risk, and didn't have give up a ton in assets.  And Shero will have even more money to spend now. 

[SterioDesign]

2 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I've said this before about Shero...apart from getting lucky with the draft lottery twice, he's had incredibly rotten luck as of late, with "makes sense" deals not working out in his favor.  On that level I really feel for him.  Like I've said about him, there aren't really any moves that he's made that I've had a "C'mon Ray WTF kind of deal is THAT?!" reaction to.  The only quibble that I have is that I'm not sure that he or those he works with took a hard enough look at Subban's 2018-19 season, which did have red flags...but they had the cap room to take the risk, and didn't have give up a ton in assets.  And Shero will have even more money to spend now. 

the only move he did that i thought was meh was signing simmonds but i understood it was a very very low risk move really 

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

the only move he did that i thought was meh was signing simmonds but i understood it was a very very low risk move really 

The Mueller trade was pretty terrible.

But most of his trades have been a net positive.  And if he brings back at least an A asset in a Hall trade, that'll be a positive too.  Hopefully he has learned that there's more to building a team than being a good wheeler dealer. 

[Crisis]

50 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I was all for taking the plunge and re-signing him (even though I strongly suspected this would become a bad contract).

Though I'm not fully against it even now, more and more I'm OK with him going.  I think the promise of what Taylor Hall can be will often exceed what Hall actually is.  It all came together for him during that one MVP season...and it was a glorious season for him, no doubt.  But what I was hoping was the beginning of a run of very good to great seasons looks more like a career year that he won't ever come close to matching. 

The funny thing is I think we all would've celebrated Hall re-signing initially...and within a few years, with still a lot of term left on his deal, fans would've started turning on him...mostly because I don't think he's ever going to live up to what he'll get paid...and that's if he's not missing several games. 

When he is actually dealt, I will be a bit bummed...far from crushed, but it will be a reminder that four years after he was acquired, the Devils weren't able to get where they were hoping to go.  I do think Shero has a plan, but I don't imagine it involved two lost seasons after it looked like progress had been made in 2017-18...not that I thought that the Devils were automatically going to be a playoff team every year (the process isn't always linear), but for a number of reasons, a hell of a lot has gone to sh!t...starting with the goalie who should've been a nice building block falling off a cliff.  And I'm sure though Shero knew that a healthy and reasonably productive Hall could be moved at some point during his walk year if need be...that's definitely not was Ray was hoping for. 

As for Hall himself...no hard feelings.  It's not his fault that Schneider's steep decline made the goaltending situation a complete mess, with guys like KK and Blackwood being asked to do too much.  Not on Hall that Shero's deals (many of which did make sense on paper) have not been paying dividends lately.  Or that PK's game has been a trainwreck...or that too many defensemen here simply aren't that good.  I'm sure some will slather Hall with the "loser" paintbrush, but I don't think that's fair...he can be frustrating and like I said, with him you definitely get more promise than performance at times, but one guy can only do so much. 

Shero is about to be flush with some serious cap room again...really hope the next round, whatever it may be, brings back more than a faded shell-of-himself former star who's making a fortune.  Not that I'm on the "Shero sucks" bus, but I gotta see some real progress over the next couple of years. 

Great post.  You've put into words exactly how I think I feel about this Taylor Hall adventure we've been on.  It was fun to watch, it was disappointing how it turned out, and I'm anxiously excited to see what the return brings and how we can leverage that into the next phase of hopefully bringing this team back into a competitive era.

[Crisis]

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

The Mueller trade was pretty terrible.

But most of his trades have been a net positive.  And if he brings back at least an A asset in a Hall trade, that'll be a positive too.  Hopefully he has learned that there's more to building a team than being a good wheeler dealer. 

Yeah I don't know if Ray had some (bad) inside info on this or what, but I remember looking up stats and highlights for Mirco and just not seeing a project worth a 2nd rounder.  It was right after Ray drafted Nico so it makes me think that he brought Mirco in as a Swiss companion for Nico.  It seems like he did the same for Jack by drafting a lot of his teammates.

[SterioDesign]

9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

The Mueller trade was pretty terrible.

But most of his trades have been a net positive.  And if he brings back at least an A asset in a Hall trade, that'll be a positive too.  Hopefully he has learned that there's more to building a team than being a good wheeler dealer. 

oh yeah thats right i guess

[SterioDesign]

7 minutes ago, Crisis said:

Great post.  You've put into words exactly how I think I feel about this Taylor Hall adventure we've been on.  It was fun to watch, it was disappointing how it turned out, and I'm anxiously excited to see what the return brings and how we can leverage that into the next phase of hopefully bringing this team back into a competitive era.

Yeah from the get-go and how this team is shaping up i always would have prefered a younger stud that'd be closer in age to our young core than Hall. So if things go right it could be great

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, Crisis said:

Yeah I don't know if Ray had some (bad) inside info on this or what, but I remember looking up stats and highlights for Mirco and just not seeing a project worth a 2nd rounder.  It was right after Ray drafted Nico so it makes me think that he brought Mirco in as a Swiss companion for Nico.  It seems like he did the same for Jack by drafting a lot of his teammates.

Too bad he couldn't have found some other Swiss player to stick on the team.  Maybe even hire one as some assistant.

Don't think that's the case with this draft and Hughes.  Hughes knows the NHL better than most 18 year olds, and you have to remember that this was easily the best USNDP team ever, so a lot of them were going to get drafted. 

[Nicomo]

4 minutes ago, Crisis said:

Yeah I don't know if Ray had some (bad) inside info on this or what, but I remember looking up stats and highlights for Mirco and just not seeing a project worth a 2nd rounder.  It was right after Ray drafted Nico so it makes me think that he brought Mirco in as a Swiss companion for Nico.  It seems like he did the same for Jack by drafting a lot of his teammates.

I think he was just rolling the dice that Mueller would be a project worth taking on. He was a first round pick, so the potential was obviously there. He’s just never put it all together. 

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, Nicomo said:

I think he was just rolling the dice that Mueller would be a project worth taking on. He was a first round pick, so the potential was obviously there. He’s just never put it all together. 

Is also a good skater, which is pretty much what the team was loading up on.  Then you look at this draft, and outside of Hughes, the goal was to get as many rugged physical defenseman and hope that at least one of them turns into Brandon Carlo.

[Neb00rs]

16 hours ago, DevilMinder said:

I feel like the end of Taylor hall will be right before the holiday freeze on the 19th. Shero is probably weighing and waiting on all offers.

I mostly agree with this expectation. 

Despite fans clamoring about the market being best for trading Hall now, the truth is the market probably won't change much between now and the deadline. For however many more games the receiving team gets with Hall now, at the deadline teams have more money to work with and are more desperate. 

That said, I get the sense that Hall's status is kind of hanging over the players' heads and ultimately it feels like this team won't be able to begin forging an identity until his situation is dealt with. I'd imagine Ray would be eager to let the team move on mentally. There's also the injury risk of course. 

I think there's a few teams he could end up on, but if it were to be the Avs it's not unreasonable to think he ends up there before our game in Colorado at the end of this week. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Neb00rs

[SterioDesign]

Just now, Neb00rs said:

I mostly agree with this expectation. 

Despite fans clamoring about the market being best for trading Hall now, the truth is the market probably won't change much between now and the deadline. For whatever many more games the receiving team gets with Hall now, at the deadline teams have more money to work with and are more desperate. 

That said, I get the sense that Hall's status is kind of hanging over the players' heads and ultimately it feels like this team won't be able to begin forging an identity until his situation is dealt with. I'd imagine Ray would be eager to let the team move on mentally. There's also the injury risk of course. 

I think there's a few teams he could end up on, but if it were to be the Avs it's not unreasonable to think he ends up there before our game in Colorado next week. 

Yeah and for all we know it might have a bigger impact than we think. The players obviously all rallied behind Taylor few years ago and he was the true leader... to go in a season and knowing your top player has a foot out the door must be weird.

I know its easy to say they make millions and are professionals. You're still a human. It's a sport you really have to be all on the same page, take hit and block shots for the other guys. So when you know one guy is on his way out, it has to play with your head a little and im sure some guys can handle that better than others

[Crisis]

19 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Too bad he couldn't have found some other Swiss player to stick on the team.  Maybe even hire one as some assistant.

Don't think that's the case with this draft and Hughes.  Hughes knows the NHL better than most 18 year olds, and you have to remember that this was easily the best USNDP team ever, so a lot of them were going to get drafted. 

True, I didn't mean to limit it only to the draft, but check this out.  I just looked back and there were 17 players drafted from that team.  The Devils picked up 3 of them and Florida, Minnesota, and Anaheim each grabbed 2.  Granted Ray has had a connection with that program so it isn't totally surprising that he took the most, but he still did.  Grabbing Moynihan in the 7th on Jack's recommendation grabbed my attention at first.  Danny Weight is a USNTDP teammate that wasn't drafted but invited to the dev camp this summer.  I read that Grame Clarke is a former, non-USNTDP teammate of Jack's.  Ray also brought Nicholas Canade who is Jack's childhood friend and former youth teammate to the dev camp.  That reads like a comfort move.

This could be the case for a lot of other players.  I get that these guys are all the same age and their paths probably overlap more than I think throughout their young careers but this is the first time I'm really looking into it and it look to me that the Devils could be catering to arguably their most promising draft pick ever.

[Daniel]

9 minutes ago, Crisis said:

True, I didn't mean to limit it only to the draft, but check this out.  I just looked back and there were 17 players drafted from that team.  The Devils picked up 3 of them and Florida, Minnesota, and Anaheim each grabbed 2.  Granted Ray has had a connection with that program so it isn't totally surprising that he took the most, but he still did.  Grabbing Moynihan in the 7th on Jack's recommendation grabbed my attention at first.  Danny Weight is a USNTDP teammate that wasn't drafted but invited to the dev camp this summer.  I read that Grame Clarke is a former, non-USNTDP teammate of Jack's.  Ray also brought Nicholas Canade who is Jack's childhood friend and former youth teammate to the dev camp.  That reads like a comfort move.

This could be the case for a lot of other players.  I get that these guys are all the same age and their paths probably overlap more than I think throughout their young careers but this is the first time I'm really looking into it and it look to me that the Devils could be catering to arguably their most promising draft pick ever.

I think it's fairly common.  I know the Devils drafted Jocktain Chainey in the seventh round on Nico's recommendation.  And with development camp there are always a bunch of guys who are pretty much meant to be bodies and are often there as a favor to someone. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

16 hours ago, Nicomo said:

I think he was just rolling the dice that Mueller would be a project worth taking on. He was a first round pick, so the potential was obviously there. He’s just never put it all together. 

Yeah, exactly this.  First-rounders almost always get second and third chances.  Given the lack of depth in the system at the time, I understood why Shero took a shot there.  22 years old when he was dealt for...still had some time on his side.  Just never panned out.

 

16 hours ago, Neb00rs said:

I mostly agree with this expectation. 

Despite fans clamoring about the market being best for trading Hall now, the truth is the market probably won't change much between now and the deadline. For however many more games the receiving team gets with Hall now, at the deadline teams have more money to work with and are more desperate. 

That said, I get the sense that Hall's status is kind of hanging over the players' heads and ultimately it feels like this team won't be able to begin forging an identity until his situation is dealt with. I'd imagine Ray would be eager to let the team move on mentally. There's also the injury risk of course. 

I think there's a few teams he could end up on, but if it were to be the Avs it's not unreasonable to think he ends up there before our game in Colorado at the end of this week. 

With Hall, there's always the threat that he could go down with an injury...he's managed to play in every game this season to date, but that's a feat that he's managed just once over a full season in his career.  I understood Shero letting his UFA status spill into the season...he thought Schneider could show the same form as he did towards the end of last season, and he obviously thought PK could be a big help (and of course Gusev and Hughes were coming aboard).  There was reason to be optimistic enough to think that the team could play well enough to convince Hall that there's an immediate and bright future here (and of course Shero wanted to make sure that Hall could still be Hall).

Safe to say that that ship has sailed and is a distant speck on the horizon now.  In a season that's gone almost completely in the sh!tter, the real icing on that cake would be Hall somehow getting hurt between now and the deadline.  That's why I hope this thing happens very quickly.  I'd be thrilled if it was by the Xmas break. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Neb00rs]

6 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

With Hall, there's always the threat that he could go down with an injury...he's managed to play in every game this season to date, but that's a feat that he's managed just once over a full season to date.  I understood Shero letting his UFA status spill into the season...he thought Schneider could show the same form as he did towards the end of last season, and he obviously thought PK could be a big help (and of course Gusev and Hughes were coming aboard).  There was reason to be optimistic enough to think that the team could play well enough to convince Hall that there's an immediate and bright future here (and of course Shero wanted to make sure that Hall could still be Hall).

Safe to say that that ship has sailed and is a distant speck on the horizon now.  In a season that's gone almost completely in the sh!tter, the real icing on that cake would be Hall somehow getting hurt between now and the deadline.  That's why I hope this thing happens very quickly.  I'd be thrilled if was by the Xmas break. 

Yeah, and I mentioned such re: injury, your greater point is that the ship has sailed. Generally you keep star players around while there's any hope of playoffs remaining - trying to win obviously outweighs risk of injury - but the Devils are cooked and fans going into every game expecting to all of sudden see the playoffs-ready team we all imagined at the onset of the season, are probably going to be continually disappointed, especially with the big task in front of Nasreddine, one which it does not look like he's in a rush to fix quickly with the hopes of a miracle run. Nas hasn't changed almost anything yet in terms of structure on the ice - the team is playing harder and faster, that's about it thus far. But, without going off on a tangent here, yeah, no need to hang on to Hall any longer aside from Shero trying to hold out for his best deal.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Neb00rs

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

3 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

Yeah, and I mentioned such re: injury, your greater point is that the ship has sailed. Generally you keep star players around while there's any hope of playoffs remaining - trying to win obviously outweighs risk of injury - but the Devils are cooked and fans going into every game expecting to all of sudden see the playoffs-ready team we all imagined at the onset of the season, are probably going to be continually disappointed, especially with the big task in front of Nasreddine, one which it does not look like he's in a rush to fix quickly with the hopes of a miracle run. Nas hasn't changed almost anything yet in terms of structure on the ice - the team is playing harder and faster, that's about it thus far. But, without going off on a tangent here, yeah, no need to hang on to Hall any longer aside from Shero trying to hold out for his best deal.

Oh I know (re:  the bolded), just fleshing out the fact that he's played in every game so far this year almost makes it feel like he's due to have something happen soon...not missing games isn't something that he's been able to do.