Nicomo Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 1 hour ago, CarpathianForest said: To be fai: Hall was a huge part of our playoff birth a couple years ago and he did win the Hart I mean we've all soured on him, but it's not like Shero made any valid effort to surround him with talent or provide even a passable defense. He traded for Sami Vatanen and PK Subban... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 2 hours ago, NJDevs4978 said: Looks like the only thing that's imminent, is that this is coming down to Wednesday night like a mini-trade deadline negotiation. This can't go into the freeze though, it just can't. Now that Hall's already been shelved it would be ridiculous to have him sit 10-15 games or more waiting on a trade that isn't going to get any better with time, and the league would be all over our ass. Ray can’t get the magic beans package, and based on reports that he was haggling over Kevin Bahl, who is not even a top 50 prospect from anything I’ve read, it sounds like he’s getting really low balled. So maybe he has to keep this going through the new year to send a message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 27 minutes ago, Nicomo said: He traded for Sami Vatanen and PK Subban... and how are you supposed to bring in talent when you have no good assets to trade and a team that's almost all over 40 years old that you have to clean up first? lol Shero truly did the best he could possibly do with what he had. How so many fans keep ignoring that is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicomo Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 52 minutes ago, Daniel said: Ray can’t get the magic beans package, and based on reports that he was haggling over Kevin Bahl, who is not even a top 50 prospect from anything I’ve read, it sounds like he’s getting really low balled. So maybe he has to keep this going through the new year to send a message. FWIW Bahl is on the 2nd pairing for team Canada right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, Nicomo said: FWIW Bahl is on the 2nd pairing for team Canada right now... One higher than Byram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Daniel said: Ray can’t get the magic beans package, and based on reports that he was haggling over Kevin Bahl, who is not even a top 50 prospect from anything I’ve read, it sounds like he’s getting really low balled. So maybe he has to keep this going through the new year to send a message. It won't, the deal's not going to get any better after the freeze, only stay static or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 29 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: One higher than Byram. He’s older, which makes a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titans04 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, SterioDesign said: and how are you supposed to bring in talent when you have no good assets to trade and a team that's almost all over 40 years old that you have to clean up first? lol Shero truly did the best he could possibly do with what he had. How so many fans keep ignoring that is amazing. I certainly didn't agree with all the moves Ray made BUT he made them with good intentions and he tried to bring in some talented guys. Unfortunately some of them didn't pan out. It's easy and convenient to overlook he started out with a steaming pile of crap. That doesn't fit the lynching scenario. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, titans04 said: I certainly didn't agree with all the moves Ray made BUT he made them with good intentions and he tried to bring in some talented guys. Unfortunately some of them didn't pan out. It's easy and convenient to overlook he started out with a steaming pile of crap. That doesn't fit the lynching scenario. Yeah, without hindsight 20/20 nobody could start over from 2015 with what he had and build a better roster than what we have now. Very very unlikely 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralous Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, titans04 said: I certainly didn't agree with all the moves Ray made BUT he made them with good intentions and he tried to bring in some talented guys. Unfortunately some of them didn't pan out. It's easy and convenient to overlook he started out with a steaming pile of crap. That doesn't fit the lynching scenario. I feel pretty much the same way. They didn't all work out but at the time he made all of his various moves you could always see that Shero's moves were consistent and rational decisions following his plan and he typically paid relatively good prices. My only major issue with him so far has been sticking with Hynes WAY too long and letting him absolutely submarine this season where we had so much hope. Edited December 16, 2019 by Lateralous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 38 minutes ago, Daniel said: He’s older, which makes a difference. I didn’t say otherwise, I only pointed out his line position. That said, Byram is 18, Bahl is 19, they are 11 months apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 according to these ranking or scouting reports Byram > Bahl for sure https://dobberprospects.com/player/kevin-bahl/ https://dobberprospects.com/player/bowen-byram/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, Lateralous said: I feel pretty much the same way. They didn't all work out but at the time he made all of his various moves you could always see that Shero's moves were consistent and rational decisions following his plan and he typically paid relatively good prices. My only major issue with him so far has been sticking with Hynes WAY too long and letting him absolutely submarine this season where we had so much hope. i feel the same way, the only reason i can think why he held on to Hynes for that long is that he knew the goaltending could very well be a problem and kill the team but he had to give them a chance.... it didn't work out and early in the season the goaltending certainly made us lose many many games. So i think he wanted to give him a real chance as the goaltending was becoming a bit better. I'm not saying this is it or using it as an excuse... it's just the only rational reason i can think of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) Ray may have started out with crap but he's had five years and two lotto wins, eventually he needs to be held accountable especially after go for it moves this offseason and the coaching fiasco. He doesn't get to use Lou (really Conte) as a crutch forever. Edited December 16, 2019 by NJDevs4978 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicomo Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 12 minutes ago, SterioDesign said: according to these ranking or scouting reports Byram > Bahl for sure https://dobberprospects.com/player/kevin-bahl/ https://dobberprospects.com/player/bowen-byram/ Wtf is dobber prospects lol Looks like it’s a fantasy hockey site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellOnICE Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said: Ray may have started out with crap but he's had five years and two lotto wins, eventually he needs to be held accountable especially after go for it moves this offseason and the coaching fiasco. He doesn't get to use Lou (really Conte) as a crutch forever. Yes and no. I look at it this way. I'll use the Rangers as an example - who a couple yaers ago when they did this rebuild - look at who they got to move to get assets. Rick Nash, JT Miller, McD, Hayes, and Zuccarello. Look what Ray had to start out with? Now he has assets he can use, and I'm hoping dearly we can see some improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicomo Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said: Ray may have started out with crap but he's had five years and two lotto wins, eventually he needs to be held accountable especially after go for it moves this offseason and the coaching fiasco. Yep. There’s only so long we can blame the previous regime. As far as Shero’s drafting goes, McLeod had a nice game (finally) but other than the Jesper’s and Ty Smith there’s not a lot of exciting prospects. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Nicomo said: Yep. There’s only so long we can blame the previous regime. As far as Shero’s drafting goes, McLeod had a nice game (finally) but other than the Jesper’s and Ty Smith there’s not a lot of exciting prospects. true but 4-5 years is not long enough. By the time we get rid of the deadwood and that we start drafting without conte... most prospects are only starting to have an impact 3-4 years down the line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said: Ray may have started out with crap but he's had five years and two lotto wins, eventually he needs to be held accountable especially after go for it moves this offseason and the coaching fiasco. He doesn't get to use Lou (really Conte) as a crutch forever. The saying goes that every GM gets at least two coaches. The goal should be to get a coach who has shown he can succeed if you give him good players, but isn’t of the fossil variety like Ken Hitchcock. I’d say Babcock if you can get some kind of commitment for him to be less of a dick. As to Hall, if its Arizona and we can get Ivan Provsetov (look up his stats, very encouraging), Bahl and a first unprotected, I’m not going to hold it against Ray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slasher72 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, titans04 said: I certainly didn't agree with all the moves Ray made BUT he made them with good intentions and he tried to bring in some talented guys. Unfortunately some of them didn't pan out. It's easy and convenient to overlook he started out with a steaming pile of crap. That doesn't fit the lynching scenario. Lou left a charred earth roster when he exited the building. Then he goes on to Toronto and NYI, turns the teams around with a lot of help, and he's revered as the Pope of Hockey. This team was in shambles. With that said, Sakic has done near miracle work with Colorado. I wish we could be half as lucky. Edited December 16, 2019 by slasher72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titans04 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 45 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said: Ray may have started out with crap but he's had five years and two lotto wins, eventually he needs to be held accountable especially after go for it moves this offseason and the coaching fiasco. He doesn't get to use Lou (really Conte) as a crutch forever. True. My last post was more about him trying to make moves and not purposely tanking. Now the glass half empty view is PK was a bust and I'm not totally sold that there's a whole lot of talent on the roster today. Some of that is based on age both extremely young (Hughes) and a guy like PK who I think is done. The D outside of Sami who I think gets traded is garbage imo most nights. I don't think a guy like Zacha is good enough. Regardless of the views on individual players the sum of the parts is piss poor from Shero on down through the waterboy. Still a ton of work to be done and hopefully Ray is up to the task but I think it's fair to say his judgement day is coming one of these seasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, slasher72 said: Lou left a charred earth roster when he exited the building. Then he goes on to Toronto and NYI, turns the teams around with a lot of help, and he's revered as the Pope of Hockey. Trying to kind of taking a step back and analyzing the whole thing. I kind of understand why its so black and white for so many people looking at how Lou and Shero are doing things. Personally i generally value long-term more than short-term. So is Shero. While Lou valued short-term more than long-term and would always make moves for the "now" sacrificing the future. So right there we just wouldnt see eye to eye. Same with many fans here who just want results NOW but Shero is generally playing the long game so i also understanding that its getting on their nerves 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) Well i sure hope there's better offers out there lol Edited December 16, 2019 by SterioDesign 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog2020 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Just now, SterioDesign said: Well i sure hope there's better offers out there lol Then Holland can fvck off. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Yeah that’s awful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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