Taylor Hall to AZ, 1st Rnd pick, 3rd Rnd Conditonal Pick, Bahl and 2 Prospects.Dvs Retain 50% salary

[EdgeControl]

Hall had to play before a trade or a re-signing. Guy had bone chips in his knees.  Shero was screwed either way. We will get what we can now . 

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

Well of course YOU wouldn't.

It's weird though, cause usually you're SO damn results oriented. Well... in a way cause of course you're just using this to support your narrative.

But the results were... we didn't win a cup since Lou let Nieds, Holik, Rafalski, gomez, Gionta, Parise, etc etc etc walk for nothing and wtv assets we could have got from those guys would likely make us a better team at the moment, if not... well at least potentially better.

How's that for a dry approach?

Truth is and it's clear. You have no patience and you want results now, so obviously you always supported Lou's win now approach. But now we're dealing with the results of that so deal with it

I'll give you this, you still manage to bait people in to respond to the asinine belief that Lou should have been selling off assets for picks and prospects at the expense of **checks notes*** winning the Stanley Cup three times? 

And I'm saying that it's better for Ray not to accept a return that has very little chance making the team any better in the short term or long term by making a deal now, even if you run the risk of an injury by holding out for better terms.  I'm not saying that I think the Devils should be gearing up for some kind of playoff run with Taylor Hall.  If you actually read what I've said, I agree with Ray's approach to tank the rest of the season and trading Taylor Hall has to be part of that.

[Daniel]

7 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Yeah the islanders are good now but imagine them + wtv return for Tavares

They probably would have gotten a first round pick in the 20-30 range that would not be in the NHL right now and prospects kind of similar to what the Rangers got for Ryan McDonough who are ok but not setting the world on fire.

The Islanders also very likely not to make the playoffs by the trade deadline that year, which is where the stupid comparison to Lou and not trading whoever I'm sure will come in.

[Devil Dan 56]

1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

this whole thing is baffling to me, i just don't understand.

First Shero has never let something like this happen before. You can make educated guesses as to why but still, there's a reason why he went against his usual methods.

Then if Shero was just offering 5-6 years, he's smart enough to know that wouldn't be enough for Hall, who already seemed like he had one foot out the door. Hall also never really sound that committed to staying and actually sounded very willing to leave. 

So i truly don't know what Shero was hoping for going in the season with Hall un-signed. 

 

I think part of the reason he never let this happen before was because Pittsburgh was a very different situation. For a lot of Shero's time there the team was the NHL darling and a big time contender with some hall of fame level players. Its easier to play hardball when you know the player wants to be there, so Shero could go in with a certain leverage.  

In this case though, Hall wanted to be paid based on the MVP year and wants a shot at a cup. Ray couldn't offer both of those coming off of Hall's injury and with a team still rebuilding. I think Ray tried to jump start the rebuild a bit and on paper made excellent moves. It just didn't pan out. 

Add to that the fact that I'm sure Hall's agent is salivating over the idea of free agency. Ray took a calculated risk and it didn't work out. I don't think he messed up. 

 

[SterioDesign]

39 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I'll give you this, you still manage to bait people in to respond to the asinine belief that Lou should have been selling off assets for picks and prospects at the expense of **checks notes*** winning the Stanley Cup three times? 

And I'm saying that it's better for Ray not to accept a return that has very little chance making the team any better in the short term or long term by making a deal now, even if you run the risk of an injury by holding out for better terms.  I'm not saying that I think the Devils should be gearing up for some kind of playoff run with Taylor Hall.  If you actually read what I've said, I agree with Ray's approach to tank the rest of the season and trading Taylor Hall has to be part of that.

Well using the whole Stanley Cup thing is like saying "I only have 20 bucks... my kids are starving so i could go and buy my kid food OR go put that $20 in a slot-machine so that i can buy them food and a trip to Disney instead."

[SterioDesign]

51 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Everyone here knows how you view these things and that's fine if you want to be that restrictive about it and/or not acknowledge circumstances, but you don't really have to keep wondering aloud why Ray went about it differently this time...quite simply, he thought taking this shot was going to pay off, especially if some other factors (like Cory not falling to pieces one more time) went his way...he thought his moves were going to make the Devils competitive enough that if Hall was fully healthy, contributing, and happy, that he'd very likely re-sign.  It's not complicated...GMs sometimes take big risks.  In this case, a lot obviously went horribly horribly wrong...just with Cory and PK alone, it couldn't have gone much worse...we'll see how Shero recovers. 

He is not going to lose Hall for nothing and obviously this will get resolved soon...but mostly because it makes no sense to keep him, given everything that has happened.  If the Devils were firmly in the playoff hunt and Hall was contributing heavily but still hadn't re-signed...I'm not so sure Shero would deal him though.  But in this timeline, he has to. 

 

And my man, everyone here knows your views about my views lol So while you're piling up, i don't know.

I did acknowledge the circumstances and the difference between Hall and Parise is that Lou did was he always did in those cases. Yet you tried to justify it with excuses and find justifications.... even if he did systematically do exactly what he always did and what players like Elias always said he did and didn't agree with. I KNOW there was an injury and all but nothing suggest he would have done things differently even if Zach would have been healthy, cause he almost never did it ever before it was against his ways.

Then I'm acknowledging that Shero is going against his usual practice here so that for sure there's a reason.

 

[Daniel]

9 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Well using the whole Stanley Cup thing is like saying "I only have 20 bucks... my kids are starving so i could go and buy my kid food OR go put that $20 in a slot-machine so that i can buy them food and a trip to Disney instead."

There’s got to be an SNL or Kids in the Hall skit about someone who makes terrible and incoherent analogies.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Daniel

[SterioDesign]

8 minutes ago, Daniel said:

There’s got to be an SNL or Kids in the Hall skit about someone who makes terrible and incoherent analogies.

It's not terrible when you want to understand it, which you obviously don't want to.

The notion of going "All-In" can be incredibly flawed depending on your situation and it's something you have to analyze the pros and cons of your short and long-term plan and then make a decision based on the odds and what you're willing to gamble VS not asking yourself the question at all if you have a tiny chance to win the cup and fvck the rest. THAT'S why we're stripped of assets now, after decades of that mentality stripping us from assets AND not winning the cup.

To blindly be like "we may make the playoffs so we may win the cup, meaning let's ignore our long-term health completely" is just reckless

Edited December 16, 2019 by SterioDesign

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

8 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

And my man, everyone here knows your views about my views lol So while you're piling up, i don't know.

I did acknowledge the circumstances and the difference between Hall and Parise is that Lou did was he always did in those cases. Yet you tried to justify it with excuses and find justifications.... even if he did systematically do exactly what he always did and what players like Elias always said he did and didn't agree with. I KNOW there was an injury and all but nothing suggest he would have done things differently even if Zach would have been healthy, cause he almost never did it ever before it was against his ways.

Then I'm acknowledging that Shero is going against his usual practice here so that for sure there's a reason.

 

I didn't bring Lou into my response at all and I'm not talking about him...I was only talking about Shero doing things differently in this instance, and why he chose to do so.

What's frustrating is that I, CD9, DD56 and others have explained to you multiple times (often in considerable detail) what Shero's thinking was, and over and over again it's full Zoolander "But why male models?" when you respond.  Like I said...if you're going to strictly adhere to a certain script and don't want to go off it, OK.  But you act like you can't possibly understand why Shero handled Hall the way that he did, no matter how many people give you solid reasons that explain Shero's thought process very well, and I don't think it should be so difficult to grasp.  That's my beef here. 

[SterioDesign]

24 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I didn't bring Lou into my response at all and I'm not talking about him...I was only talking about Shero doing things differently in this instance, and why he chose to do so.

What's frustrating is that I, CD9, DD56 and others have explained to you multiple times (often in considerable detail) what Shero's thinking was, and over and over again it's full Zoolander "But why male models?" when you respond.  Like I said...if you're going to strictly adhere to a certain script and don't want to go off it, OK.  But you act like you can't possibly understand why Shero handled Hall the way that he did, no matter how many people give you solid reasons that explain Shero's thought process very well, and I don't think it should be so difficult to grasp.  That's my beef here. 

What's frustrating is that you still care and engage about things we'll quite possibly never agree on lol WHY are you still engaging with me here? honestly, why? That's obviously something you have a grudge about cause you ignore things i said.

I said MULTIPLE times that what is happening is clearly Shero going off course so that there has to be a reason and gave my own educated guesses why he must be doing it. So not sure why you're saying that i act like i can't possibly understand. I could guess "maybe he just didn't read my posts where i said that..." but the way you almost quote me every single time im bringing this up it doesnt look like you miss any of my posts at all lol

Also don't act like you know for sure what Shero thinking was lol i mean come on. That's the main reason im even bringing it up cause something happen but we can't know exactly why. Shero has no history we can look at for this case, it's all new so we can't really all know 200% sure

If you want to act like you know for sure based on your own guesses, go nuts but leave me out of it lol

Edited December 16, 2019 by SterioDesign

[moustic]

Hey SD & Daniel, when Hall does indeed get traded... Will you stop hating each other and show the whole forum how much you are good a this ? 
If yes, (create a fightclub)  that gave me an extra willing to the news of his trade to broke ! 

I gave both of you that..(I can't tell abou the fight club.. you know the rules... but seriously.. create it) .. You find creative way to find the new angle to be boring (do it)

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

5 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

What's frustrating is that you still care and engage about things we'll quite possibly never agree on lol WHY are you still engaging with me here? honestly, why? That's obviously something you have a grudge about cause you ignore things i said.

I said MULTIPLE times that what is happening is clearly Shero going off course so that there has to be a reason and gave my own educated guesses why he must be doing it. So not sure why you're saying that i act like i can't possibly understand. I could guess "maybe he just didn't read my posts where i said that..." but the way you almost quote me every single time im bringing this up it doesnt look like you miss any of my posts at all lol

Also don't act like you know for sure what Shero thinking was lol i mean come on. That's the main reason im even bringing it up cause something happen but we can't know exactly why.

If you want to act like you know for sure based on your own guesses, go nuts but leave me out of it lol

Its really, really clear in this case why Ray had handled the situation as he has handled it. Its not a guess from anyone. 

[ringtwins]

Really , just fvck and get it over with.

[SterioDesign]

2 minutes ago, moustic said:

Hey SD & Daniel, when Hall does indeed get traded... Will you stop hating each other and show the whole forum how much you are good a this ? 
If yes, (create a fightclub)  that gave me an extra willing to the news of his trade to broke ! 

I gave both of you that..(I can't tell abou the fight club.. you know the rules... but seriously.. create it) .. You find creative way to find the new angle to be boring (do it)

Well i'd love to say yes lol... but we all know Daniel won't stop with his over the top and at time delusional hatred for Shero after the Hall trade. He's  been jumping on every occasion he got for almost 2 years now

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

Well i'd love to say yes lol... but we all know Daniel won't stop with his over the top and at time delusional hatred for Shero after the Hall trade. He's  been jumping on every occasion he got for almost 2 years now

But why male models?

(I'm use that from now on CR76).

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

SD, gotta stop lumping every conversation we have into one category.  You did this the last time too.  I'm not debating methods and ideologies.  This is about why Shero didn't deal off Hall prior to the season, even if there was a chance that he wouldn't re-sign. 

No one knows for sure about every last little nook and cranny re:  Shero's thought process unless they have a direct line to Shero himself, but it's pretty damned obvious that he was originally very interested in doing what he could to keep Hall, even if meant taking some risks that could backfire.  He wasn't making "right now" kinds of moves just to move Hall before the season began.  Yes, as fans, all we really can do is make educated guesses, based off what we're seeing...but as CD9 just posted, this is one that isn't really so complex. 

If there's something I would like to know about (assuming that Shero's unwillingness to go more than 5 or 6 years is indeed true), it's why Shero seems to have backed off just a bit at the last minute...it's as though he went from being near a "10" (scale of 1-to-10) to an "8", with his general enthusiasm about re-signing Hall to big money.  Not cold feet necessarily, but something doused the flames just a little.  Something seemed to change where suddenly Shero went from "I really want Hall in the fold" to "I'll still re-sign him, but on my terms and my line in the sand is drawn...I'm not crossing it."  Hall's been healthy this year and even though the goals haven't been going in for him, he's been pretty good...nowhere near locked-in 2017-18 form, but good enough that he should still get a nice contract as a UFA.  Guess I'd like to know what exactly changed re:  how Shero viewed Hall...and when. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[SterioDesign]

5 minutes ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

Its really, really clear in this case why Ray had handled the situation as he has handled it. Its not a guess from anyone. 

I really don't think it's that clear.

Is it cause based on conversations he had with Hall that he sounded committed in staying? But since we suck it changed?

Is it cause of Hall's injury and had to see how he was playing before committing?

Say the reports are true, why is he only willing to go 5-6 years? Is that what he always had in mind or based on his current play? or cause he knows our real prime will be when nico and hughes are in their prime and by then Hall will be way past his? 

Then why change his mind now and trade him? Is it cause he sees the team window is actually further?

Did he just decide to gamble and prove to Hall that we were going to be competitive to fully convince him to stay... if so how close was he to re-sign if we would have been competitive?

How set was Hall on testing the market no matter what? Did it ever change or only since the start of the season?

Obviously with hindsight 20/20 its easy to piece that up now. But we didn't know we'd be this bad before the season started.

[SterioDesign]

3 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

SD, gotta stop lumping every conversation we have into one category.  You did this the last time too.  I'm not debating methods and ideologies.  This is about why Shero didn't deal off Hall prior to the season, even if there was a chance that he wouldn't re-sign. 

No one knows for sure about every last little nook and cranny re:  Shero's thought process unless they have a direct line to Shero himself, but it's pretty damned obvious that he was originally very interested in doing what he could to keep Hall, even if meant taking some risks that could backfire.  He wasn't making "right now" kinds of moves just to move Hall before the season began.  Yes, as fans, all we really can do is make educated guesses, based off what we're seeing...but as CD9 just posted, this is one that isn't really so complex. 

If there's something I would like to know about (assuming that Shero's unwillingness to go more than 5 or 6 years is indeed true), it's why Shero seems to have backed off just a bit at the last minute...it's as though he went from being near a "10" (scale of 1-to-10) to an "8", with his general enthusiasm about re-signing Hall to big money.  Not cold feet necessarily, but something doused the flames just a little.  Something seemed to change where suddenly Shero went from "I really want Hall in the fold" to "I'll still re-sign him, but on my terms and my line in the sand is drawn...I'm not crossing it."  Hall's been healthy this year and even though the goals haven't been going in for him, he's been pretty good...nowhere near locked-in 2017-18 form, but good enough that he should still get a nice contract as a UFA.  Guess I'd like to know what exactly changed re:  how Shero viewed Hall...and when. 

well i just touched on all of that in my response to CD9

[Daniel]

2 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

SD, gotta stop lumping every conversation we have into one category.  You did this the last time too.  I'm not debating methods and ideologies.  This is about why Shero didn't deal off Hall prior to the season, even if there was a chance that he wouldn't re-sign. 

No one knows for sure about every last little nook and cranny re:  Shero's thought process unless they have a direct line to Shero himself, but it's pretty damned obvious that he was originally very interested in doing what he could to keep Hall, even if meant taking some risks that could backfire.  He wasn't making "right now" kinds of moves just to move Hall before the season began.  Yes, as fans, all we really can do is make educated guesses, based off what we're seeing...but as CD9 just posted, this is one that isn't really so complex. 

If there's something I would like to know about (assuming that Shero's unwillingness to go more than 5 or 6 years is indeed true), it's why Shero seems to have backed off just a bit at the last minute...it's as though he went from being near a "10" (scale of 1-to-10) to an "8".  Not cold feet necessarily, but something doused the flames just a little.  Something seemed to change where suddenly Shero went from "I really want Hall in the fold" to "I'll still re-sign him, but on my terms and my line in the sand is drawn...I'm not crossing it."  Hall's been healthy this year and even though the goals haven't been going in for him, he's been pretty good...nowhere near locked-in 2017-18 form, but good enough that he should still get a nice contract as a UFA.  Guess I'd like to know what exactly changed re:  how Shero viewed Hall...and when. 

If this all started because of a difference over the contract length, it obviously had its genesis with Tyler Dellow.  That's pretty much what he specializes in and why they brought him in.  Perhaps Hall and Ferris were willing to think about it for a little bit in between the time of the MacKenzie tweet about authorization to negotiate a contract (when I presume Shero was holding firm on 6 years) to the Calgary pizza summit, but Hall and Shero saw how bad the team was and both decided it was best for each side to go its separate ways under all the circumstances.

Otherwise I think Shero was of the mind that he had to get at least one A asset or something close to that.  It sounds like this weekend he got really lowballed by Arizona.  So again, if you're really only going to get a bunch of garbage now, maybe just wait until the deadine where you know you should be able to do at least as well as the Matt Duchene return. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

12 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

well i just touched on all of that in my response to CD9

The off-season part isn't so complicated...Shero clearly had a vision of how this was supposed to go (which obviously didn't come to fruition...not even close).  That's the part that was pretty simple.  Obviously with the season going off the rails, it's NOW that things are more complicated.

What's kind of interesting (again, only if what we've heard about Shero capping the term and not budging is true) is that it sounds like Hall might have been pretty willing to stay, as long as he got his 8 years...maybe more so than many would've thought.  It does seem like Shero was the one who pumped the brakes just a little bit.  We won't get a full answer, but once this whole thing is finally resolved, I'm curious to hear how much Hall and Shero have to say about all of this. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[SterioDesign]

26 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

The off-season part isn't so complicated...Shero clearly had a vision of how this was supposed to go (which obviously didn't come to fruition...not even close).  That's the part that was pretty simple.  Obviously with the season going off the rails, it's NOW that things are more complicated.

What's kind of interesting (again, only if what we've heard about Shero capping the term and not budging is true) is that it sounds like Hall might have been pretty willing to stay, as long as he got his 8 years...maybe more so than many would've thought.  It does seem like Shero was the one who pumped the brakes just a little bit.  We won't get a full answer, but once this whole thing is finally resolved, I'm curious to hear how much Hall and Shero have to say about all of this. 

well i agree with that though. It's clear that if we ever get success again, it will be with our young group. and by then Hall will be out of his prime and if he's making 11m a year... that would be a problem

[Daniel]

34 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

The off-season part isn't so complicated...Shero clearly had a vision of how this was supposed to go (which obviously didn't come to fruition...not even close).  That's the part that was pretty simple.  Obviously with the season going off the rails, it's NOW that things are more complicated.

What's kind of interesting (again, only if what we've heard about Shero capping the term and not budging is true) is that it sounds like Hall might have been pretty willing to stay, as long as he got his 8 years...maybe more so than many would've thought.  It does seem like Shero was the one who pumped the brakes just a little bit.  We won't get a full answer, but once this whole thing is finally resolved, I'm curious to hear how much Hall and Shero have to say about all of this. 

It's not completely implausible that Ray pulls back from the precipice (perhaps at the urging of ownership) and gives him the 8 year deal or at least there's some mending of fences where both sides say lets see how it's working out by the trade deadline and no hard feelings if we have to do this again. 

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

45 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

I really don't think it's that clear.

Is it cause based on conversations he had with Hall that he sounded committed in staying? But since we suck it changed?

Is it cause of Hall's injury and had to see how he was playing before committing?

Say the reports are true, why is he only willing to go 5-6 years? Is that what he always had in mind or based on his current play? or cause he knows our real prime will be when nico and hughes are in their prime and by then Hall will be way past his? 

Then why change his mind now and trade him? Is it cause he sees the team window is actually further?

Did he just decide to gamble and prove to Hall that we were going to be competitive to fully convince him to stay... if so how close was he to re-sign if we would have been competitive?

How set was Hall on testing the market no matter what? Did it ever change or only since the start of the season?

Obviously with hindsight 20/20 its easy to piece that up now. But we didn't know we'd be this bad before the season started.

Come on man, you know the context of the team since Hall has been here. 

He has made it no secret he wants to be on a contender and would only re up if the team was moving in that direction. 

Ray has been building that team since. This summer was Ray basically showcasing Hall the start of the team being competitive.

There was no way Ray could have traded Hall this summer with the moves he made. It would have made no sense. 

You seem to love an analogy, it would be like a guy buying an engine to a Ferrari and spending four years getting all the parts for the rest of the car and putting it together, and then the day before you are due to start the engine , ripping it out and buying the engine for a Porsche. 

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

Come on man, you know the context of the team since Hall has been here. 

He has made it no secret he wants to be on a contender and would only re up if the team was moving in that direction. 

Ray has been building that team since. This summer was Ray basically showcasing Hall the start of the team being competitive.

There was no way Ray could have traded Hall this summer with the moves he made. It would have made no sense. 

You seem to love an analogy, it would be like a guy buying an engine to a Ferrari and spending four years getting all the parts for the rest of the car and putting it together, and then the day before you are due to start the engine , ripping it out and buying the engine for a Porsche. 

I think a better analogy is when you ex-girlfriend decides not to trade Taylor Hall over the summer because he was coming off an injury and his trade value would be limited and there being a reasonable expectation that he would sign a longterm contract extension that would include several great years of hockey he had left in him just as the team was going to start an upward trajectory after getting a future superstar in Jack Hughes, but it all came crashing down when your ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend decided to hold on to a coaching staff way longer than he should have.

[SterioDesign]

12 minutes ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

Come on man, you know the context of the team since Hall has been here. 

He has made it no secret he wants to be on a contender and would only re up if the team was moving in that direction. 

Ray has been building that team since. This summer was Ray basically showcasing Hall the start of the team being competitive.

There was no way Ray could have traded Hall this summer with the moves he made. It would have made no sense. 

You seem to love an analogy, it would be like a guy buying an engine to a Ferrari and spending four years getting all the parts for the rest of the car and putting it together, and then the day before you are due to start the engine , ripping it out and buying the engine for a Porsche. 

if i may...  its more like you got this 2010 Ferrari and you've been buying parts for years cause you eventually want to race. It's giving you trouble and not always starting well and you have to invest in that engine too.

But then you get a 2019 ferrari engine for free... might have to wait a little longer to get cheaper after market parts but at least it's still on warranty for a few years... Then it makes sense to try to sell the 2010 engine so you can really build  a newer car that will last you longer vs gambling on a 10 years old engine already that's been faulty already