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Taylor Hall to AZ, 1st Rnd pick, 3rd Rnd Conditonal Pick, Bahl and 2 Prospects.Dvs Retain 50% salary

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38 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I asked...I deserved this explanation. 

I’m sorry I did.

It's funny, because I initially understood why it would be weird, which is not at all for this reason that he just described.  

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This sure makes it sound like Colorado isn't giving Shero anything more than the can of magic beans package:

https://www.milehighhockey.com/2019/12/8/21001282/the-colorado-avalanche-could-trade-for-taylor-hall-as-early-as-this-week-rumor

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From what I’ve heard, there is a very strong possibility that the Avs want the final deal to be Martin Kaut, Drew Helleson, Colorado's 2020 first round pick and a 2021 pick that is conditional on Hall re-signing with the Avalanche in the summer. While the Devils insist on it being Timmins and Kaut.

Apparently we were high on Kaut at the 2018 draft and would have selected him over Smith.  The fact that Kaut currently sucks doesn't seem to seem to have altered any opinions.

If Timmins is in the deal, I can live with it.  Otherwise, it's one more nail in Shero's coffin. 

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1 minute ago, Daniel said:

This sure makes it sound like Colorado isn't giving Shero anything more than the can of magic beans package:

https://www.milehighhockey.com/2019/12/8/21001282/the-colorado-avalanche-could-trade-for-taylor-hall-as-early-as-this-week-rumor

Apparently we were high on Kaut at the 2018 draft and would have selected him over Smith.  The fact that Kaut currently sucks doesn't seem to seem to have altered any opinions.

If Timmins is in the deal, I can live with it.  Otherwise, it's one more nail in Shero's coffin. 

I read that article too and was not encouraged.

I get Hall is a rental and without a contract, we shouldn’t expect a ton coming back, but not getting someone close to NHL ready will be extremely disappointing to say the least.

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If that's the return I really don't want to see anymore of those Shero with the sunglasses gifs for a while

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I’d rather just keep him for his lottery ball luck if that’s all he’s bringing back. 

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I'm not crazy about that return for reasons I've already mentioned, but I'm surprised people aren't happy about a 1st, a conditional, and then two assets.  I guess the two assets may not be much, and that does suck, but typically most folks here place a pretty big emphasis on 1st round picks, so I'm surprised people aren't jumping at that.  I guess maybe because Colorado's 1st is probably going to be a low pick next year (assuming they finish high in the standings...)?

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53 minutes ago, jagknife said:

I read that article too and was not encouraged.

I get Hall is a rental and without a contract, we shouldn’t expect a ton coming back, but not getting someone close to NHL ready will be extremely disappointing to say the least.

Sadly the returns tend to be less than what's hoped for.  In some cases a lot less.  And of course he missed well over half the season last year...that ain't helpin. 

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If you guys are acting like a former first round pick prospect, a flier prospect, a first round pick and a contingent future pick is some crazy low return for an impending UFA who currently has 6 goals and missed 50 fvcking games last year , a lot of you are about to be very very very disappointed.

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2 minutes ago, MB3 said:

If you guys are acting like a former first round pick prospect, a flier prospect, a first round pick and a contingent future pick is some crazy low return for an impending UFA who currently has 6 goals and missed 50 fvcking games last year , a lot of you are about to be very very very disappointed.

I guess, but this still isn't Martin Havlat we're talking about here. TH9 is less than 2 seasons removed from an MVP year.  If I'm Shero and the Avs offer me a package that doesn't include Byram, I'm telling them to kick rocks. Not too much to ask for a player who has yet to play an NHL game in a package for one of the more elite forwards of the past half-decade.

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28 minutes ago, RunninWithTheDevil said:

I guess, but this still isn't Martin Havlat we're talking about here. TH9 is less than 2 seasons removed from an MVP year.  If I'm Shero and the Avs offer me a package that doesn't include Byram, I'm telling them to kick rocks. Not too much to ask for a player who has yet to play an NHL game in a package for one of the more elite forwards of the past half-decade.

To piggyback on MB3's post...if you look at the balance of Taylor's last 6 seasons, they're really not that great, all things considered.  For one, he's missed a total of 94 games.  For another, take out the MVP season (it really has to be considered an outlier now, or at least I'm sure that's how some GMs are looking at this), and he's averaged about 23 G and 43 A per 82 GP (he's only reached that 82 GP number once in his career).  Not chump change, but it goes back to what I've said about him...in most of his recent seasons, the promise of what Taylor Hall can be usually isn't what Taylor Hall actually is. 

Not trying to sh!t on him...like I've said, I was definitely willing to take a chance on re-signing him.  But there's enough there to raise doubt as to how much you want to give up to bring him in, especially if a team like the Avalanche views him strictly as a rental and may not be interested in signing him to big money. 

Basically, I think that we value him and think a little more of him at this point than the rest of the league does, especially since we all got to witness the magic of that very special MVP season firsthand.  Yeah, you probably get a bottom-half first-rounder and a couple of decent to meh prospects if you deal him.  But not an exciting near can't-miss prospect who will immediately step into the lineup and having us all saying "Taylor who?" within a few weeks.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976
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42 minutes ago, RunninWithTheDevil said:

I guess, but this still isn't Martin Havlat we're talking about here. TH9 is less than 2 seasons removed from an MVP year.  If I'm Shero and the Avs offer me a package that doesn't include Byram, I'm telling them to kick rocks. Not too much to ask for a player who has yet to play an NHL game in a package for one of the more elite forwards of the past half-decade.

I mostly agree with your sentiments since I'm on record saying that Hall, with all his issues and injuries considered, should still bring more value than a mere "could-be big time" d-man, but the only problem with telling the Avs to take a hike is that it could be the best, or even the only offer that's made to us.  I still wouldn't mind re-signing Hall, but if he truly doesn't want to be here and has no interest, then I think we do need to consider that time is of the essence.  It's an unfortunate bargaining piece that works against us.

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29 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

To piggyback on MB3's post...if you look at the balance of Taylor's last 6 seasons, they're really not that great, all things considered.  For one, he's missed a total of 94 games.  For another, take out the MVP season (it really has to be considered an outlier now, or at least I'm sure that's how some GMs are looking at this), and he's averaged about 23 G and 43 A per 82 GP (he's only reached that 82 GP number once in his career).  Not chump change, but it goes back to what I've said about him...in most of his recent seasons, the promise of what Taylor Hall can be usually isn't what Taylor Hall actually is. 

Not trying to sh!t on him...like I've said, I was definitely willing to take a chance on re-signing him.  But there's enough there to raise doubt as to how much you want to give up to bring him in, especially if a team like the Avalanche views him strictly as a rental and may not be interested in signing him to big money. 

Basically, I think that we value him and think a little more of him at this point than the rest of the league does, especially since we all got to witness the magic of that very special MVP season firsthand.  Yeah, you probably get a bottom-half first-rounder and a couple of decent to meh prospects if you deal him.  But not an exciting near can't-miss prospect who will immediately step into the lineup and having us all saying "Taylor who?" within a few weeks.

Well said CR his MVP season is certainly an outlier.  Really good player not sure he's a great player. Will always appreciate the MVP season where he just carried this team. But not heartbroken if they move on, especially if they get a decent return.

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2 hours ago, Daniel said:

This sure makes it sound like Colorado isn't giving Shero anything more than the can of magic beans package:

https://www.milehighhockey.com/2019/12/8/21001282/the-colorado-avalanche-could-trade-for-taylor-hall-as-early-as-this-week-rumor

Apparently we were high on Kaut at the 2018 draft and would have selected him over Smith.  The fact that Kaut currently sucks doesn't seem to seem to have altered any opinions.

If Timmins is in the deal, I can live with it.  Otherwise, it's one more nail in Shero's coffin. 

Byram or fvck off. Which should be Ray’s only response to any offer Byram isn’t included in.

14A4B35F-7387-4FEC-96AD-D713D8CF60A0.jpeg

Edited by MadDog2020
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The Avs are in a really good position to get Hall because they can offer the Devils something that many other teams cannot: a chance that Hall re-signs with them, resulting in the Devils receiving the conditional assets involved in the trade. Hall seems destined to make it to UFA, and so Shero trading him to a top team with a bright future would be his most appealing option. I think Hall gets to UFA no matter what and I don't know if Colorado is on his radar, but I think there's at least a better chance that if he goes there he ends up liking the situation and sticking around as opposed to say...Arizona.

The only way a second tier team, like Arizona, could end up with Hall is by upping the assets on the unconditional side of the deal - something I'm not sure is worth it for a rental and Arizona would really have to believe their time is now for it to happen.

Unfortunately, the Devils are not going to make off like bandits with this trade - Hall is just not going to agree to sign long-term now with any team not named the Toronto Maple Leafs which makes his ability to bring back returns different than say, Mark Stone's. And such has almost certainly backed off some teams from the market but I also don't think the Devils will do so poorly. Taylor Hall is still a dynamic player who changes the way the other team has to play on the ice - even a rental of #9 is going to drive competition for his services. And if Shero can't get the right deal now, he should absolutely hold onto Hall until closer to the deadline when more teams will be financially capable of taking on the part of his salary the Devils don't retain.

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i mentioned this before but we need to stop using the whole "MVP season" as if it means Hall was like the best player in the league or something cause we're setting ourselves up for a big disappointment. The  Hart is not like a Rocket, Vezina, Selke or Norris etc You're just the guy who's the most valuable to YOUR team.

Not to take away what he did but Hall won the MVP cause he was on a sh!t team, there was context. Many players were better than him that season but context didn't go their way.

Hell guys like Marchand who's getting paid like 6m went over 100 points after Hall so people around the league doesnt see him the same way NJ fans do i think. It's scary to think what he could do on a really good team though, so obviously there's indications of greatness there

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11 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Not to take away what he did but Hall won the MVP cause he was on a sh!t team, there was context. Many players were better than him that season but context didn't go their way.

This is 100% true. Giroux, McDavid, Kucherove, Maklin and MacKinnon all outscored him. But they all had more help. Or some help lol. 

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10 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

Byram or fvck off. Which should be Ray’s only response to any offer Byram isn’t included in.

14A4B35F-7387-4FEC-96AD-D713D8CF60A0.jpeg

I'd like that too, but I definitely do not want to see Hall walk at the end of the season for zilch.  I'm fully prepared for a return that won't thrill me initially (and will have others saying "The Devils couldn't get more than that for Hall?!"), but at least there will BE a return.  Sometimes you can hardball yourself into getting even less (or as some GMs have found out, nothing at all). 

I understand neb00rs' point about waiting and hoping more potential partners might drive up his price, but there's always that threat of injury with Hall (which neb00rs himself has acknowledged).  It also just feels more and more like it's time to move on...nothing against Taylor, and I do think he's still trying and not half-assing it while in a bit of limbo.  And it's not like he's knocking the organization or being a malcontent.

 

3 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

i mentioned this before but we need to stop using the whole "MVP season" as if it means Hall was like the best player in the league or something cause we're setting ourselves up for a big disappointment. The  Hart is not like a Rocket, Vezina, Selke or Norris etc You're just the guy who's the most valuable to YOUR team.

Not to take away what he did but Hall won the MVP cause he was on a sh!t team, there was context. Many players were better than him that season but context didn't go their way.

Hell guys like Marchand who's getting paid like 6m went over 100 points after Hall so people around the league doesnt see him the same way NJ fans do i think. It's scary to think what he could do on a really good team though, so obviously there's indications of greatness there

We know what a MVP is...I don't really see anyone here equating "MVP" with "best player in the NHL".  What Hall did that year (given his supporting cast) was special, whether he won that award or not...one of the most entertaining seasons that I've ever seen a Devil have.  Very similar to Elias' 2003-04 season in some respects, in that Patrik was also almost stubbornly productive that year...he put up 81 points in 82 GP that season.  Second among forwards in points was Gomez, with 70.  A very distant third was Friesen...with 37.   

Really was an amazing season for Hall...in 39 games from 1/2/18 through 4/3/18, he was held without a point just three times (includes that crazy 26-game point streak) and put up 27 goals and 30 assists in those games.  I actually somehow forgot just how productive (and occasionally electrifying) he really was that year...it really felt like it had all come together for him, and that even if he never matched that season, that others within that realm were going to happen here...possibly for years to come.  Makes it that much sadder to see it end this way. 

 

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Just now, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I'd like that too, but I definitely do not want to see Hall walk at the end of the season for zilch.  I'm fully prepared for a return that won't thrill me initially (and will have others saying "The Devils couldn't get more than that for Hall?!"), but at least there will BE a return.  Sometimes you can hardball yourself into getting even less (or as some GMs have found out, nothing at all). 

I understand neb00rs' point about waiting and hoping more potential partners might drive up his price, but there's always that threat of injury with Hall (which neb00rs himself has acknowledged).  It also just feels more and more like it's time to move on...nothing against Taylor, and I do think he's still trying and not half-assing it while in a bit of limbo.  And it's not like he's knocking the organization or being a malcontent.

 

We know what a MVP is...I don't really see anyone here equating "MVP" with "best player in the NHL".  What Hall did that year (given his supporting cast) was special, whether he won that award or not...one of the most entertaining seasons that I've ever seen a Devil have.  Very similar to Elias' 2003-04 season in some respects, in that Patrik was also almost stubbornly productive that year...he put up 81 points in 82 GP that season.  Second among forwards in points was Gomez, with 70.  A very distant third was Friesen...with 37.   

Really was an amazing season for Hall...in 39 games from 1/2/18 through 4/3/18, he was held without a point just three times (includes that crazy 26-game point streak) and put up 27 goals and 30 assists in those games.  I actually somehow forgot just how productive (and occasionally electrifying) he really was that year...it really felt like it had all come together for him, and that even if he never matched that season, that others within that realm were going to happen here...possibly for years to come.  Makes it that much sadder to see it end this way. 

 

What i mean is ive seen fans saying that we should get a good return even if he's not great this year causee he's still 2 years removed from a MVP season or wtv. That's not really how that works. He had one really good season and that's what it was

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1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

To piggyback on MB3's post...if you look at the balance of Taylor's last 6 seasons, they're really not that great, all things considered.  For one, he's missed a total of 94 games.  For another, take out the MVP season (it really has to be considered an outlier now, or at least I'm sure that's how some GMs are looking at this), and he's averaged about 23 G and 43 A per 82 GP (he's only reached that 82 GP number once in his career).  Not chump change, but it goes back to what I've said about him...in most of his recent seasons, the promise of what Taylor Hall can be usually isn't what Taylor Hall actually is. 

Not trying to sh!t on him...like I've said, I was definitely willing to take a chance on re-signing him.  But there's enough there to raise doubt as to how much you want to give up to bring him in, especially if a team like the Avalanche views him strictly as a rental and may not be interested in signing him to big money. 

Basically, I think that we value him and think a little more of him at this point than the rest of the league does, especially since we all got to witness the magic of that very special MVP season firsthand.  Yeah, you probably get a bottom-half first-rounder and a couple of decent to meh prospects if you deal him.  But not an exciting near can't-miss prospect who will immediately step into the lineup and having us all saying "Taylor who?" within a few weeks.

this is true BUT Hall can be the player that pushes Colorado over the edge and brings them a Stanley Cup. So to that end, there has to be an overpayment required. Shero shouldn’t be asking for fair market value. He should be asking teams ‘How much are you willing to overpay?’

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6 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

This is 100% true. Giroux, McDavid, Kucherove, Maklin and MacKinnon all outscored him. But they all had more help. Or some help lol. 

For sure but all i mean is that i don't think the actual MVP title is weighting much in any trade negotiations. The fact he had an amazing season would be tho

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4 minutes ago, devlman said:

this is true BUT Hall can be the player that pushes Colorado over the edge and brings them a Stanley Cup. So to that end, there has to be an overpayment required. Shero shouldn’t be asking for fair market value. He should be asking teams ‘How much are you willing to overpay?’

Not sure Shero has that much leverage at this point though. Cause they know damn well he cannot re-sign him. They know he'd likely trade him somewhere Hall would re-sign and get a better return and not many teams can. And they know Shero has more to lose than they do... losing Hall for nothing would be catastrophic

Edited by SterioDesign
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1 minute ago, devlman said:

this is true BUT Hall can be the player that pushes Colorado over the edge and brings them a Stanley Cup. So to that end, there has to be an overpayment required. Shero shouldn’t be asking for fair market value. He should be asking teams ‘How much are you willing to overpay?’

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think overpaying means different things to different people.  Everyone's goal is to win a Cup, so yeah, you'd think they'd do anything to get there, including overpaying, but at the same time it's usually only desperate teams that overpay, and Colorado seems to be positioned fairly well, i.e. not desperate at all.  Who's to say they don't roll the dice on the rest of their season without him, and just enter the market after the season and see if he's interested in going there, this way they don't have to give up any other pieces?  To me, holding onto some of my assets, especially young and developing ones, is worth much more than the ability to give Mr. Hall an 8th year on his contract.

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