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Taylor Hall to AZ, 1st Rnd pick, 3rd Rnd Conditonal Pick, Bahl and 2 Prospects.Dvs Retain 50% salary

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18 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

To piggyback on MB3's post...if you look at the balance of Taylor's last 6 seasons, they're really not that great, all things considered.  For one, he's missed a total of 94 games.  For another, take out the MVP season (it really has to be considered an outlier now, or at least I'm sure that's how some GMs are looking at this), and he's averaged about 23 G and 43 A per 82 GP (he's only reached that 82 GP number once in his career).  Not chump change, but it goes back to what I've said about him...in most of his recent seasons, the promise of what Taylor Hall can be usually isn't what Taylor Hall actually is. 

Not trying to sh!t on him...like I've said, I was definitely willing to take a chance on re-signing him.  But there's enough there to raise doubt as to how much you want to give up to bring him in, especially if a team like the Avalanche views him strictly as a rental and may not be interested in signing him to big money. 

Basically, I think that we value him and think a little more of him at this point than the rest of the league does, especially since we all got to witness the magic of that very special MVP season firsthand.  Yeah, you probably get a bottom-half first-rounder and a couple of decent to meh prospects if you deal him.  But not an exciting near can't-miss prospect who will immediately step into the lineup and having us all saying "Taylor who?" within a few weeks.

But the fact is, he DID win the Hart trophy only two years ago and is playing at almost a point per game pace on a team that is an absolute disaster.   (And was above a point per game last year).  The only player who  is arguably better who was recently traded under similar circumstances was Erik Karlsson - whose health was more questionable and who the Sens would not trade to the Eastern Conference. 

Shero needs to get an A asset out of this.  If not, he's running out of opportunities to pull a rabbit out of a hat.  When all of his trades are done -- and he seems intent on making them happen sooner rather than later -- we will be challenging Detroit for last overall.  Unless the owners literally don't care (which isn't beyond the realm of possibility), they have to be losing patience if this is where the team is sitting five years after making him the GM and with all the luck he's had along the way.

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1 minute ago, devlman said:

this is true BUT Hall can be the player that pushes Colorado over the edge and brings them a Stanley Cup. So to that end, there has to be an overpayment required. Shero shouldn’t be asking for fair market value. He should be asking teams ‘How much are you willing to overpay?’

"this is true" (in reference to the red flags that I posted earlier) is part of the problem...Hall isn't a sure thing, and he's having a down year (6 goals) and missed a sh!tload of games last season.  Hall could just at easily be snakebit the rest of the season (Elias knew all about that in 2006-07 and 2007-08) or wind up getting hurt.  Problem is that he's a bit of a wild card (and a UFA to boot)...enough so that I don't think there's gonna be an overpayment...I would love that to happen, just don't think that it will.

 

8 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

What i mean is ive seen fans saying that we should get a good return even if he's not great this year causee he's still 2 years removed from a MVP season or wtv. That's not really how that works. He had one really good season and that's what it was

His 2011-12 through 2013-14 seasons were quite productive (183 points in 181 GP, though he did miss 31 games), but like I mentioned previously and like you allude to in this post, the MVP season is really one big outlier season in the last 6 (including this one).  It's enough to make GMs ask "Which Hall am I getting?  The beast who shot 14% in 2017-18, or the one who never cracked 10% in any of his other recent years, and who missed 29 games one season and 49 in another?" 

  

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3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

But the fact is, he DID win the Hart trophy only two years ago and is playing at almost a point per game pace on a team that is an absolute disaster.   (And was above a point per game last year).  The only player who  is arguably better who was recently traded under similar circumstances was Erik Karlsson - whose health was more questionable and who the Sens would not trade to the Eastern Conference. 

Shero needs to get an A asset out of this.  If not, he's running out of opportunities to pull a rabbit out of a hat.  When all of his trades are done -- and he seems intent on making them happen sooner rather than later -- we will be challenging Detroit for last overall.  Unless the owners literally don't care (which isn't beyond the realm of possibility), they have to be losing patience if this is where the team is sitting five years after making him the GM and with all the luck he's had along the way.

Bolded takes a hit in that he missed well over half the season last year.  Don't you think that would affect his value?

If Shero simply CAN'T get an A asset out of this...what would you rather he do?  Not move Hall at all?  Like I've said, I'm expecting some disappointment in the return, but I'll be a hell of a lot more disappointed if Shero overplays his hand and holds out for something that no one is willing to offer...and we watch Hall leave.  Suffice it to say if that happened, suddenly you'll be wishing that Shero had gotten SOMETHING for Hall (even if it's ultimately "just" a first-rounder, a couple of decent prospects, and a conditional pick).  With Lou, at least his teams were consistently making the playoffs (until the bottom finally fell out)...this team isn't.  So no rolling the dice here.    

Shero's luck has not all been good.  Getting two first-overall picks, yes.  I know you don't want to give him credit for this, but he made a hell of a deal for Hall.  Also a fine deal for Palms. 

But as has been discussed, not much luck with trades lately, and I consider him unlucky in that regard because I don't think he made any deals that looked rotten from the start (not even PK)...if you want to see some of that type of move, just watch the Mets' BVW in action.  Shero was also unlucky in that Schneider went from being a .920+ puckstopper to a guy who can't play anymore, and isn't really old...and has a contract that can't be moved.  I think just how much Schneider's insanely fast decline has hurt the Devils is often understated. 

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17 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Bolded takes a hit in that he missed well over half the season last year.  Don't you think that would affect his value?

If Shero simply CAN'T get an A asset out of this...what would you rather he do?  Not move Hall at all?  Like I've said, I'm expecting some disappointment in the return, but I'll be a hell of a lot more disappointed if Shero overplays his hand and holds out for something that no one is willing to offer...and we watch Hall leave.  Suffice it to say if that happened, suddenly you'll be wishing that Shero had gotten SOMETHING for Hall (even if it's ultimately "just" a first-rounder, a couple of decent prospects, and a conditional pick).  With Lou, at least his teams were consistently making the playoffs (until the bottom finally fell out)...this team isn't.  So no rolling the dice here.    

Shero's luck has not all been good.  Getting two first-overall picks, yes.  I know you don't want to give him credit for this, but he made a hell of a deal for Hall.  Also a fine deal for Palms. 

But as has been discussed, not much luck with trades lately, and I consider him unlucky in that regard because I don't think he made any deals that looked rotten from the start (not even PK)...if you want to see some of that type of move, just watch the Mets' BVW in action.  Shero was also unlucky in that Schneider went from being a .920+ puckstopper to a guy who can't play anymore, and isn't really old...and has a contract that can't be moved.  I think just how much Schneider's insanely fast decline has hurt the Devils is often understated. 

Taylor Hall is our best player and that trade to get him will probably get Shero more time than he deserves.  If it’s come to the point that Shero has to trade him for magic beans, which is what the reported package from Colorado is, he’s failed. Period.  It’s his job to do better, no matter how much his ego has been inflated by the stupid sunglasses gif thing.

And if you think Shero has had poor luck, you would be the most forgiving person on the planet.   Two lottery wins in three years, possibly a third in four years.   Not hampered for cap space.  And was one GM who got to take advantage of Chiarelli.   Everyone laughed at the Oilers for the mess they had.  Guess what, Shero is in the same spot as they were.
 

So far as the goaltending, do what the Isles did and make it work with Greis, Lehner and Varlamov.  Oh, we had Schneider and Blackwood.  Tough sh!t.  Make it work.  Lou had a lot less with the Islanders.  But even so, it’s not my fault that Ray can’t bring on good coaches, who tend to actually help goalies succeed.

 

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Colorado wins the cup this season with Hall. That’s the difference, plain and simple. If someone said to me the Devils will win the Stanley Cup this year if we part with Smith and a first then obviously we all do that in a second. Ray has to get Colorado thinking along these lines. If Ottawa could extract A high level talent like Branstrom then that has to be our benchmark.

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1 minute ago, devlman said:

Colorado wins the cup this season with Hall. That’s the difference, plain and simple. If someone said to me the Devils will win the Stanley Cup this year if we part with Smith and a first then obviously we all do that in a second. 

No guarantees on anything. Hall could go to the Avs, they run into Hellebuck or Binnington and voila - bounced in 5. We've seen crazier sh!t happen.

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2 minutes ago, HellOnICE said:

No guarantees on anything. Hall could go to the Avs, they run into Hellebuck or Binnington and voila - bounced in 5. We've seen crazier sh!t happen.

Of course but Ray has to sell the idea of the insta-cup happening w a Hall acquisition.

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I don't think Ray's job is to sell the Avs on that. The Avs know who Hall is, as a player and person, and their job internally is to decide what the maximum package they can do is. It's not like Ray is selling a car 😛 If anything, Ray needs to sell that other offers are out there, and what the market is.

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9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Taylor Hall is our best player and that trade to get him will probably get Shero more time than he deserves.  If it’s come to the point that Shero has to trade him for magic beans, which is what the reported package from Colorado is, he’s failed. Period.  It’s his job to do better, no matter how much his ego has been inflated by the stupid sunglasses gif thing.

And if you think Shero has had poor luck, you would be the most forgiving person on the planet.   Two lottery wins in three years, possibly a third in four years.   Not hampered for cap space.  And was one GM who got to take advantage of Chiarelli.   Everyone laughed at the Oilers for the mess they had.  Guess what, Shero is in the same spot as they were.
 

So far as the goaltending, do what the Isles did and make it work with Greis, Lehner and Varlamov.  Oh, we had Schneider and Blackwood.  Tough sh!t.  Make it work.  Lou had a lot less with the Islanders.  But even so, it’s not my fault that Ray can’t bring on good coaches, who tend to actually help goalies succeed.

 

Jesus dude, I know you've kinda jumped the shark and you're wading into dopey-sounding territory again, but don't try to twist my words around.

You're making it sound like I said that Shero's luck has ALL been poor.  fvcking READ...I pointed out that he was indeed lucky in getting two #1 OAs.  You don't think he's been unlucky with some of his trades?  Did you think the MoJo deal would turn out the way that it did?  How about this...point out the trade that Shero made that had you saying "What the hell were you thinking on THAT one RAY?!" 

How about Hall getting hurt at the worst possible time...heading into a walk year?  Imagine if he had a full season last year that was at least in the city limits of what he'd done in 2017-18?  Think then Ray might have been able to get more?  But as it stands, not only does Hall miss almost FIFTY games last season, he's not finding the net this year, and hasn't really looked as good as his point total suggests.  Not like his value is at an all-time high at the moment.  You seem to think Shero should just be able to make a killer deal happen no matter what.  There's enough negatives that come with Hall (I've detailed them) that you should be able to understand that Ray might not be able to pull off a miracle here.  Doesn't mean he won't try of course, but I don't know how you can put it 100% on Shero if it's not there. 

Did the Isles have a $6 million goalie on their payroll?  That complicates things.  You also had Schneider get off to a terrific start in 2017-18, and finish up 2018-19 strong...so I can't blame Shero for hoping that a fully-healthy-from-the-start Cory might be able to approach .920 territory again this season.  That didn't happen.  Yes, now Ray will have to come up with a plan that doesn't include any bouncebacks from Schneider, because there's no circumstances where Shero should give Cory another shot.

I will at least give Shero until the start of next season to try to come up with a solution (or one with upside) to the goaltending issue.  Obviously it's too early to render a verdict on Blackwood.  Domingue is a warm body who's passing through. 

I'll also give Ray one more shot at putting together a coaching staff. 

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7 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

I don’t care if Ray needs to use a gun- Byram or fvck off.

And when Colorado likely refuses...what's Plan B?  Obviously Shero will shop Hall around, but if the Avs' offer is the best one on the table and Byram isn't a part of it...does Ray have much choice here?   

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3 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Jesus dude, I know you've kinda jumped the shark and you're wading into dopey-sounding territory again, but don't try to twist my words around.

You're making it sound like I said that Shero's luck has ALL been poor.  fvcking READ...I pointed out that he was indeed lucky in getting two #1 OAs.  You don't think he's been unlucky with some of his trades?  Did you think the MoJo deal would turn out the way that it did?  How about this...point out the trade that Shero made that had you saying "What the hell were you thinking on THAT one RAY?!" 

How about Hall getting hurt at the worst possible time...heading into a walk year?  Imagine if he had a full season last year that was at least in the city limits of what he'd done in 2017-18?  Think then Ray might have been able to get more?  But as it stands, not only does Hall miss almost FIFTY games last season, he's not finding the net this year, and hasn't really looked as good as his point total suggests.  Not like his value is at an all-time high at the moment.  You seem to think Shero should just be able to make a killer deal happen no matter what.  There's enough negatives that come with Hall (I've detailed them) that you should be able to understand that Ray might not be able to pull off a miracle here.  Doesn't mean he won't try of course, but I don't know how you can put it 100% on Shero if it's not there. 

Did the Isles have a $6 million goalie on their payroll?  That complicates things.  You also had Schneider get off to a terrific start in 2017-18, and finish up 2018-19 strong...so I can't blame Shero for hoping that a fully-healthy-from-the-start Cory might be able to approach .920 territory again this season.  That didn't happen.  Yes, now Ray will have to come up with a plan that doesn't include any bouncebacks from Schneider, because there's no circumstances where Shero should give Cory another shot.

I will at least give Shero until the start of next season to try to come up with a solution (or one with upside) to the goaltending issue.  Obviously it's too early to render a verdict on Blackwood.  Domingue is a warm body who's passing through. 

I'll also give Ray one more shot at putting together a coaching staff. 

Hall:  the goal was for him to sign an extension.  Remember "not on your fvcking life" when asked if he might trade him last year when the injury situation wasn't clear?  Two things happened, either the horrendous start scared Hall out of signing an extension or they were lowballing him on years like Lavoie has reported (and Lebrun hinted at).  Either scenario is of Shero's making.  The way out of it is to bring back at least one piece that will help the team get better starting next year at the latest.

Goaltending:  a bit off topic, but it has been as bad as it is because because of a combination of the defensman and who the coaches were.  That is largely on Shero. 

We're in sort of agreement though that Shero has one more offseason to demonstrate that he can build a hockey that sustainably wins.  If by the middle of December of next year, the Devils are in the same spot in the standings, he has to be fired.  Draft picks and Martin Kaut will not affect that outcome one way or the other.  An A asset might. 

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9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Hall:  the goal was for him to sign an extension.  Remember "not on your fvcking life" when asked if he might trade him last year when the injury situation wasn't clear?  Two things happened, either the horrendous start scared Hall out of signing an extension or they were lowballing him on years like Lavoie has reported (and Lebrun hinted at).  Either scenario is of Shero's making.  The way out of it is to bring back at least one piece that will help the team get better starting next year at the latest.

Goaltending:  a bit off topic, but it has been as bad as it is because because of a combination of the defensman and who the coaches were.  That is largely on Shero. 

We're in sort of agreement though that Shero has one more offseason to demonstrate that he can build a hockey that sustainably wins.  If by the middle of December of next year, the Devils are in the same spot in the standings, he has to be fired.  Draft picks and Martin Kaut will not affect that outcome one way or the other.  An A asset might. 

Come on, your comments on the goaltending are absolutely blinded by your obsession to blame Shero. fvcking ridiculous, the goalies has been straight up bad most of the time and it's on them.

Schneider has been sh!t for a long time now, he even sucks in the AHL now. He cannot make basic saves at time and both goalies had terrible rebound control. Many goals scored were after the goalies couldnt hold on to the puck. We all saw it, to try to pretend that it's all on the coaches and Shero is laughable

Sure the bad D is not helping but so many goals we're so clearly and obviously just bad goaltending. I can't believe you're that blind

Edited by SterioDesign
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18 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Come on, your comments on the goaltending are absolutely blinded by your obsession to blame Shero. fvcking ridiculous, the goalies has been straight up bad most of the time and it's on them.

Schneider has been sh!t for a long time now, he even sucks in the AHL now. He cannot make basic saves at time and both goalies had terrible rebound control. Many goals scored were after the goalies couldnt hold on to the puck. We all saw it, to try to pretend that it's all on the coaches and Shero is laughable

Sure the bad D is not helping but so many goals we're so clearly and obviously just bad goaltending. I can't believe you're that blind

For the record, this is a Taylor Hall thread, and I've kept it there except to note that Shero likely has to do very well in a trade to keep his job in the long run and that we're at this point because of him. 

On the goaltending issue:  Schneider ended last season strong when he had nothing to really play for and played well at the Worlds.  He has ability to at least put up average numbers, yet the players in front of him suck and/or have been poorly coached. This has affected pretty much every goalie for the last three years in the same way.

But even if I'm wrong on that, you know what Mr. Sunglasses should have done, recognize that Schneider was washed up, send him down to Bingo like you did anyway or buy him out or try to trade him, and sign Semyon Varlomov who currently has a .926 save percentage and forego signing Wayne Simmonds.  Hell, you could have put Schneider on waivers earlier when people thought he might have something in the tank and someone might have claimed him. Oh, I forgot the spreadsheet people will come out and tell me Islanders goalies just happen to have great "luck" or something.  And we can't question the divine wisdom of the great and completely accomplished Rejean Shero.

Edited by Daniel

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9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

For the record, this is a Taylor Hall thread, and I've kept it there except to note that Shero likely has to do very well in a trade to keep his job in the long run and that we're at this point because of him. 

On the goaltending issue:  Schneider ended last season strong when he had nothing to really play for and played well at the Worlds.  He has ability to at least put up average numbers, yet the players in front of him suck and/or have been poorly coached. This has affected pretty much every goalie for the last three years in the same way.

But even if I'm wrong on that, you know what Mr. Sunglasses should have done, recognize that Schneider was washed up, send him down to Bingo like you did anyway or buy him out or try to trade him, and sign Semyon Varlomov who currently has a .926 save percentage and forego signing Wayne Simmonds.  Hell, you could have put Schneider on waivers earlier when people thought he might have something in the tank and someone might have claimed him. Oh, I forgot the spreadsheet people will come out and tell me Islanders goalies just happen to have great "luck" or something.  And we can't question the divine wisdom of the great and completely accomplished Rejean Shero.

amazing lol

First you say Schneider ended the season strong and all. and that its all on the coaches... then you go the other direction saying we shouldnt have gave schneider a chance to prove himself after a strong showing late in the season... that the owners would have been fine paying off, after already spending on Subban. Then assuming Varlamorv would have signed with us for sure. But if we WOULD have signed Varlamorv... the coaches would have ruined him too right? so whats the point? You're just going in circles hating man lol

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18 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

amazing lol

First you say Schneider ended the season strong and all. and that its all on the coaches... then you go the other direction saying we shouldnt have gave schneider a chance to prove himself after a strong showing late in the season... that the owners would have been fine paying off, after already spending on Subban. Then assuming Varlamorv would have signed with us for sure. But if we WOULD have signed Varlamorv... the coaches would have ruined him too right? so whats the point? You're just going in circles hating man lol

You understand the concept of showing alternative scenarios to make a point?  To spell it out.   I believe Schneider is not completely washed up and on a properly coached team, he should put up at least average numbers.  If that proposition is wrong, it is Shero's job to recognize that, and there happens to have been a goalie who was a free agent who is playing very well.  Since according to you the goaltending has nothing to do with the rest of the team and not much to do with John Hynes both of things that come under Ray Shero's purview, that's something that the great Rejean should have figured out. 

An army of the best shrinks is needed to diagnose a syndrome where someone can hate a GM who brought home 3 Stanley Cups, 5 Stanley Cup appearances, 13 straight playoff appearances, etc. etc. yet can give every single excuse in the book for a GM who in his fifth year on the job has the team sitting in second to last place and will only be getting worse.

Edited by Daniel

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6 minutes ago, Daniel said:

You understand the concept of showing alternative scenarios to make a point?  To spell it out.   I believe Schneider is not completely washed up and on a properly coached team, he should put up at least average numbers.  If that proposition is wrong, it is Shero's job to recognize that, and there happens to have been a goalie who was a free agent who is playing very well.  Since according to you the goaltending has nothing to do with the rest of the team and not much to do with John Hynes, that's something that the great Rejean should have figured out. 

An army of the best shrinks is needed to diagnose a syndrome where someone can hate a GM who brought home 3 Stanley Cups, 5 Stanley Cup appearances, 13 straight playoff appearances, etc. etc. yet can give every single excuse in the book for a GM who in his fifth year on the job has the team sitting in second to last place and will only be getting worse.

Can you explain the Rejean thing?

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1 minute ago, Daniel said:

You understand the concept of showing alternative scenarios to make a point?  To spell it out.   I believe Schneider is not completely washed up and on a properly coached team, he should put up at least average numbers.  If that proposition is wrong, it is Shero's job to recognize that, and there happens to have been a goalie who was a free agent who is playing very well.  Since according to you the goaltending has nothing to do with the rest of the team and not much to do with John Hynes, that's something that the great Rejean should have figured out. 

An army of the best shrinks is needed to diagnose a syndrome where someone can hate a GM who brought home 3 Stanley Cups, 5 Stanley Cup appearances, 13 straight playoff appearances, etc. etc. yet can give every single excuse in the book for a GM who in his fifth year on the job has the team sitting in second to last place and will only be getting worse.

I don't hate Lou. I simply didn't see eye to eye with him on specific and systematic things he did, really black and white.

You're a whole other beast. You'll make sh!t up and twist everything to fit your narrative that Shero is not a good GM and doesn't know what he's doing.

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2 minutes ago, Crisis said:

Can you explain the Rejean thing?

That's Shero's real (or full) first name.

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4 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

I don't hate Lou. I simply didn't see eye to eye with him on specific and systematic things he did, really black and white.

You're a whole other beast. You'll make sh!t up and twist everything to fit your narrative that Shero is not a good GM and doesn't know what he's doing.

My narrative is simple:

 

00F8CB6F-4C30-4DB7-B87B-F03FA2B8A17D.jpeg

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12 minutes ago, Daniel said:

You understand the concept of showing alternative scenarios to make a point?  To spell it out.   I believe Schneider is not completely washed up and on a properly coached team, he should put up at least average numbers.  If that proposition is wrong, it is Shero's job to recognize that, and there happens to have been a goalie who was a free agent who is playing very well.  Since according to you the goaltending has nothing to do with the rest of the team and not much to do with John Hynes, that's something that the great Rejean should have figured out. 

An army of the best shrinks is needed to diagnose a syndrome where someone can hate a GM who brought home 3 Stanley Cups, 5 Stanley Cup appearances, 13 straight playoff appearances, etc. etc. yet can give every single excuse in the book for a GM who in his fifth year on the job has the team sitting in second to last place and will only be getting worse.

are we talking pee wee or mites?

Because otherwise this is the post of the day/week/month

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9 minutes ago, titans04 said:

are we talking pee wee or mites?

Because otherwise this is the post of the day/week/month

I'm serious.  I'm not saying .925.  If he got to play on the Isles, he'd be something like .915. 

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He can't stop beach balls in the AHL, I'd say that confirms he's beyond done at the NHL level. At some point it's not about pointing fingers at Hynes or Shero and this is the perfect case. He just blows now and I don't think there's a need for more proof.

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2 minutes ago, titans04 said:

He can't stop beach balls in the AHL, I'd say that confirms he's beyond done at the NHL level. At some point it's not about pointing fingers at Hynes or Shero and this is the perfect case. He just blows now and I don't think there's a need for more proof.

I'd say it's an organizational thing.  It's a moot point really though.  Corey has been in Bingo for like two or three weeks now and the Devils still suck and all of the goalies are below .900. 

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1 hour ago, Daniel said:

I'm serious.  I'm not saying .925.  If he got to play on the Isles, he'd be something like .915. 

i have largely stayed out of the fray on your critiques of shero but this is not the hill to die on brother.

i don't need spreadsheets or advanced stats to paint a picture. my eyes work just fine. he is absolutely finished. he has made it clear that while he's pretty much as healthy as he's going to get, he will never get his lateral movement back where it was and he has openly admitted that his confidence is pretty much shot. watching games, he was giving up weak and awful goals every game. he has no speed on his glove and his reliance to go down early has him getting beat high on the regular.

no matter how stout a current nhl defense is, they're still going to yield shots. the devils, by hynes design and as was actually affected, limited the high danger shots at a reasonable rate and cory still couldn't stop a puck to save his life. so while the defense as a whole was obviously not good, it doesn't turn even a league average goalie (which is like .905) into the worst goalie in the league by a huge margin.

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