Taylor Hall to AZ, 1st Rnd pick, 3rd Rnd Conditonal Pick, Bahl and 2 Prospects.Dvs Retain 50% salary

[Devil Dan 56]

22 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

i dont post the 2015 roster because of Lou. I post it to give a context of what the rebuilt started with. It's absolutely bonkers to expect that in 4 years we'd be competitive again. Wouldn't you agree?

If anything i think we're quite ahead of a normal curve of rebuilding a team from what we had. But that's not even enough for some fans. It's incredible.

I absolutely agree that you can't rebuild this team in 4 years. It takes time and luck and good decisions, which I trust Shero to make. 

I think we're about where we should be for sure, but I also think this off-season it is imperative for Shero to take another step in this rebuild. I think the people panicking are absolutely jumping the gun, but I see where their fear is coming from. 

[SterioDesign]

5 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

I absolutely agree that you can't rebuild this team in 4 years. It takes time and luck and good decisions, which I trust Shero to make. 

I think we're about where we should be for sure, but I also think this off-season it is imperative for Shero to take another step in this rebuild. I think the people panicking are absolutely jumping the gun, but I see where their fear is coming from. 

it's true that a big summer would help tremendously but i won't be jumping on the fire Shero train if we don't. Why? Cause i understand that with the asset we have that there's only so much he can TRY to do.

To trade someone you need a trading partner. And with our assets other teams are in better positions than us. It takes so much luck, timing, patience and a good plan.

It's like going to the club 4 weekends in a row and expecting to find the woman you will marry there... and on the 4th weekend your friends are pressuring you that you NEED to find the woman you will marry. I mean... lol its ridiculous... maybe there's no fit... maybe the ones you like are not interested in you... maybe she was sick that day... maybe the one you think is cute and bring home is a maniac and not a long term fit... There's really no way to guarantee anything. The best you can do is put yourself in the best position for it to happen

With the cap no going as high as possible that may be a big help for Shero though. The market doesn't have anything that could help us outside of Panarin. And we dont have much assets to trade so hopfully he can pull off something

Edited June 21, 2019 by SterioDesign

[mfitz804]

4 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

The market doesn't have anything that could help us outside of Panarin.

Could that be true? Following a season where we had AHL players in half our lineup spots, there are NO free agents other than Panarin that could help?

That seems unlikely. 

[mfitz804]

I just read a list of the top 25 available free agents and damn, it is true, we don’t need any of those guys aside from Panarin. I would probably take Myers or Gardiner too, we still need D. 

But if we are going to improve, we’re gonna need to draft or trade for that help. 

[Triumph]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

Yes they are, especially if they don't trade away all of the second round picks they have this year.

You don't win with cap savings.  You win by having impact players.

You win by having the best team and the way to have the best team is to get the most value out of the limited resource (cap space) that you have.  Marner, Hall, Hischier, Bratt, and Hughes will cost $45-50M at least in 2023.  That leaves around $40-45M for the other 16 players.  That's not a lot of space at all.  I mean, that team probably competes for the Cup at some point, but it's a very short window.

1 hour ago, Devilsfan118 said:

Good to see you back Tri - stick around.

Those fools on HFboards aren't worth your energy  

Eh, nothing's happened in Devils land since they got 1st overall, so not a whole lot to discuss but the same arguments.  But thanks - I think I will be spending more time here in the next few weeks.

[SterioDesign]

7 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I just read a list of the top 25 available free agents and damn, it is true, we don’t need any of those guys aside from Panarin. I would probably take Myers or Gardiner too, we still need D. 

But if we are going to improve, we’re gonna need to draft or trade for that help. 

Well i guess it depends... we're not going to be contenders this year... with that in mind do you really wanna throw 7 years at 7m for myers or gardiner? Like you don't buy an expensive tuxedo to go get milk to your wife at the corner store... simply not worth it and that those contracts gives us cap problem when we "could" be legit contenders and then really need to use our cap when nico, hughes, smith, bratt are due for raises and that those guys sucks by then. That's really something to keep in mind. 

Wanting to just sign guys to sign guys is just a panic move and nothing else. Unless they fit the long-term plan and that the price is right i'd stay away from it.

I'd also rather give a shot to Boqvist than signing an expensive free agent that may impact us negatively in 3-4 years because of a dumb contract.

Building a contender is really a marathon, not a race.

Edited June 21, 2019 by SterioDesign

[NLinfante]

I understand the serious salary ramifications that are only (in this dream) 3 years away, but I would be very interested to see if anyone, the Devils especially, could pry Marner from the Leafs for less than the 4 first rounders, ie, about 10 million AAV.  Currently I think Tor only has about 7.5 in cap space so they'd have to get creative. It most certainly does not fix the defensive situation either, but having Hall, Hischier, Marner, and Bratt, Hughes, Palmieri is appealing.

I also understand Daniel's argument about elite talent trumping "flexibility", but giving up 4 first rounders is a disaster.  The cupboard is just barely being restocked as is.

Edited June 21, 2019 by NLinfante

[SterioDesign]

yeah it always depends on where your team is at... if the Caps for example had like 12millions in cap space SOMEHOW and could offer sheet Marner... sure do it cause you have prospects and a solid NHL lineup to back you up. We certainly do not have that luxury and it's important to understand that.

I'd be down trading Hall for Marner though, he's way closer to our core group in age so we could have a longer window with that core than with hall approaching an inevitable decline in a few years already. Plus all his injuries are a concern

Edited June 21, 2019 by SterioDesign

[ajsgolf]

Were you more excited when the Devils got Hall or Kovalsuck?  If you want Hall to stay he obviously wants to see what Ray does to determine if it’s worth it to him.  What do you specifically think Hall is looking for with regards to talent to convince him to remain?  If you want him traded what do you want in return?  Just Marner?  One for one?

[mfitz804]

8 minutes ago, ajsgolf said:

Were you more excited when the Devils got Hall or Kovalsuck?  If you want Hall to stay he obviously wants to see what Ray does to determine if it’s worth it to him.  What do you specifically think Hall is looking for with regards to talent to convince him to remain?  If you want him traded what do you want in return?  Just Marner?  One for one?

Do you think Hall brings back more than Marner? That’s crazy. Hall is older and a UFA after this year. Leaving aside whether Hall has injury problems and who is better, even if skill for skill they are even, Marner is worth more. 

[SterioDesign]

Well Kovalchuk was close to Parise's age who was in his prime so it was the perfect timing.

Hall is 7-9 years older than Nico and Hughes, who will obviously be the core of our team if were contending again. 

So say we shoot to be really competitive in 3 years? which is fair i think. We'd have a 21 years old Hughes, 23 years old Nico / Bratt, 20 years old Smith and a 30 years old Hall...  That core could be really good for about 7 years at the very least if they can remain together... Hall would be an impact player for maybe... half of that if we're generous? Marner is 22 now... would be 25 then... way closer to our core.

[Devil Dan 56]

2 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

it's true that a big summer would help tremendously but i won't be jumping on the fire Shero train if we don't. Why? Cause i understand that with the asset we have that there's only so much he can TRY to do.

To trade someone you need a trading partner. And with our assets other teams are in better positions than us. It takes so much luck, timing, patience and a good plan.

It's like going to the club 4 weekends in a row and expecting to find the woman you will marry there... and on the 4th weekend your friends are pressuring you that you NEED to find the woman you will marry. I mean... lol its ridiculous... maybe there's no fit... maybe the ones you like are not interested in you... maybe she was sick that day... maybe the one you think is cute and bring home is a maniac and not a long term fit... There's really no way to guarantee anything. The best you can do is put yourself in the best position for it to happen

With the cap no going as high as possible that may be a big help for Shero though. The market doesn't have anything that could help us outside of Panarin. And we dont have much assets to trade so hopfully he can pull off something

Another relationship comparison? WHO HURT YOU?!?

Seriously though, on your point, of course I agree that these builds take time to do properly. I also like the way Ray is going about it for the most part. The problem is you have paying customers who want to see entertaining hockey. I don't begrudge those people for being frustrated at all. 

Would you really be satisfied if he makes all of those picks from rounds 1-3? Other than Hughes it will take 4-5 years for any of them to hit the NHL with any impact. I think Shero does have to do something not drastic, but maybe a Palmieri type of move with one of these cash strapped teams. I don't see us being in the running for a free agent like  Panarin

[SterioDesign]

7 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Another relationship comparison? WHO HURT YOU?!?

Seriously though, on your point, of course I agree that these builds take time to do properly. I also like the way Ray is going about it for the most part. The problem is you have paying customers who want to see entertaining hockey. I don't begrudge those people for being frustrated at all. 

Would you really be satisfied if he makes all of those picks from rounds 1-3? Other than Hughes it will take 4-5 years for any of them to hit the NHL with any impact. I think Shero does have to do something not drastic, but maybe a Palmieri type of move with one of these cash strapped teams. I don't see us being in the running for a free agent like  Panarin

Well sure but think that there's been paying customers in Toronto for decades before they got a good team lol its part of the game.

to their credits i guess they've always sold out their arena no matter what... it's not like games in NJ has been selling out like crazy and bringing in money no matter what... so is it even fair to be this entitled as a fanbase when the arena has been empty even during their good years? I know that question will frustrate some fans.. i get it... but again.. i get being frustrated.. but asking for the impossible is not justified

Edited June 21, 2019 by SterioDesign

[Devil Dan 56]

1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

Well sure but think that there's been paying customers in Toronto for decades before they got a good team lol its part of the game

Toronto and Jersey are entirely different animals. The Leafs are like the Knicks. People will always show up.

And like I said, I understand the way a true rebuild works. It takes a long time to do right. What I'm saying is I don't blame people for being worried about a do-nothing offseason although yeah some people are going way overboard.

I mean, it doesn't bother me. I enjoy watching the new players come up and I'm 15 minutes from the arena so I can always check it out when things get exciting, but if some guy plunked down 10 grand for season tickets I totally get the frustration 

[WaffleFries]

7 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

 that's kind of my thinking. If you retain Hall, get Marner, draft Hughes, and maybe add one more guy, you shouldn't be finishing low enough to have a top 5 pick. 

If in fact they do feel 4 1sts is too much to give up, then offer him $10.5 AAV for 5-7 years and see if he signs. That would be 2 1sts, a 2nd and a 3rd, which I would definitely give up for him. 

 

There are reports out that say that Marner refused an 11x8 from Toronto. Also the way the offer sheets work is that you divide total contract cost by either years of the contract or 5, whichever is smaller, so it would have to be a 10.5 x 5. I don't know why Marner would take a 10.5 x 5 instead of a 11 x 8. There are other things saying that he doesn't want max term though so take the shot Ray.

[mfitz804]

1 minute ago, WaffleFries said:

There are reports out that say that Marner refused an 11x8 from Toronto. Also the way the offer sheets work is that you divide total contract cost by either years of the contract or 5, whichever is smaller, so it would have to be a 10.5 x 5. I don't know why Marner would take a 10.5 x 5 instead of a 11 x 8. There are other things saying that he doesn't want max term though so take the shot Ray.

Money wise, I guess he wouldn't. I didn't hear about the 11 X 8 offer. 

Refusing that makes me feel like he really wants out of Toronto. If he wants out bad enough, maybe 10.5 x 4 gets him out and then he gets to try for a huge payday as a UFA in 4 years. If he would in fact be a UFA at that time. 

Of course, if he wants out of Toronto, it probably ain't to come to New Jersey. 

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Triumph said:

You win by having the best team and the way to have the best team is to get the most value out of the limited resource (cap space) that you have.  Marner, Hall, Hischier, Bratt, and Hughes will cost $45-50M at least in 2023.  That leaves around $40-45M for the other 16 players.  That's not a lot of space at all.  I mean, that team probably competes for the Cup at some point, but it's a very short window.

 

We can worry about 2023 in 2023.  Spending big money on elite young players is not the problem.  It's getting stuck with a Lucic or Seabrook that you have to pay to get rid of where you run into trouble.

But in any event, I'm not saying Marner or bust, and I understand, for example, that you would probably get more value in a Timo Meier offer sheet where you pay him an AAV of $8.5 million and have to give up less in draft compensation. 

[Daniel]

16 minutes ago, WaffleFries said:

There are reports out that say that Marner refused an 11x8 from Toronto. Also the way the offer sheets work is that you divide total contract cost by either years of the contract or 5, whichever is smaller, so it would have to be a 10.5 x 5. I don't know why Marner would take a 10.5 x 5 instead of a 11 x 8. There are other things saying that he doesn't want max term though so take the shot Ray.

The reputable TSN guys are saying he didn't turn down $11 million a year.  They're saying that the issue is that Toronto wants to lock him up for 8 years where Marner only wants 5 years so he can get a bigger deal later. 

[Neb00rs]

 

[MadDog2020]

 

[mfitz804]

10 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

 

Hopefully he's telling the truth. It kind of sounds like what you're supposed to say, but hopefully the whole narrative that Ray asked him his opinion beforehand is true. 

[jagknife]

2 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Hopefully he's telling the truth. It kind of sounds like what you're supposed to say, but hopefully the whole narrative that Ray asked him his opinion beforehand is true. 

Exactly, a week ago had we not gotten Subban, some of the tweets by verified guys about no contract talks would have bothered me, but its obvious Ray is going hard [phrasing, I know] into this offseason to make moves.

[Neb00rs]

12 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Hopefully he's telling the truth. It kind of sounds like what you're supposed to say, but hopefully the whole narrative that Ray asked him his opinion beforehand is true. 

I'm sure Ray did, as he said so himself right after the trade. But, if you listen to the interview, I think Hall is pretty clear with where he is. He cares about NJ and he's excited for the team next year but at the same time he'd like to be on an TB/TOR/BOS type team that's built to compete for the Cup every year, especially after all the losing he's done for a decade. And he is definitely also cognizant of the fact that it's possible that the best situation for him might be in NJ. It's a tough decision and for me, there's really no hard feelings either way as long as Ray doesn't let him Tavares us, which I'm sure both Taylor and Ray won't let happen.

I'd be disappointed to see Hall leave but again, I'd get it. That said, I'm mostly optimistic he's going to decide to stay. Hardest decision of his life.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Neb00rs

[2ELIAS6]

I have faith that hall will stay, lets continue to improve the team where/ when we can and show the guy that the franchise has finally turned the corner

[MadDog2020]

16 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

I'm sure Ray did, as he said so himself right after the trade. But, if you listen to the interview, I think Hall is pretty clear with where he is. He cares about NJ and he's excited for the team next year but at the same time he'd like to be on an TB/TOR/BOS type team that's built to compete for the Cup every year, especially after all the losing he's done for a decade. And he is definitely also cognizant of the fact that it's possible that the best situation for him might be in NJ. It's a tough decision and for me, there's really no hard feelings either way as long as Ray doesn't let him Tavares us, which I'm sure both Taylor and Ray won't let happen.

I'd be disappointed to see Hall leave but again, I'd get it. That said, I'm mostly optimistic he's going to decide to stay. Hardest decision of his life.

It’s not that hard of a decision. Sign with the Devils and be done with it. There’s no super team to run to. This isn’t basketball.