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The Taylor Hall Watch Thread

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9 hours ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

I'm just glad you've stopped obsessing over something that happened 7 years ago and instead have moved on to something that happened 10 years ago. 

We get it. You don't agree with the philosophy that Lou used. You prefer Ray's style. You have beaten this dead horse into the ground, and now you dig it up every other day to beat it some more. 

While i get the sentiment it was actually on topic. Someone mentioned many fans were paranoid, I explained why it was somewhat justified for them to be with these situations and why we don't need to worry now. There was no digging it was right there.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

While i get the sentiment it was actually on topic. Someone mentioned many fans were paranoid, I explained why it was somewhat justified for them to be with these situations and why we don't need to worry now. There was no digging it was right there.

If any fan is paranoid it’s very little to do with Lou. Devil fans don’t begrudge him the way you do. So to keep bringing it up is just annoying.

Edited by devlman

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, devlman said:

If any fan is paranoid it’s very little to do with Lou. Devil fans don’t begrudge him the way you do. So to keep bringing it up is just annoying.

Hey i get it. People can't stand hearing an opinion going against theres, especially when its taboo like this so sure it's annoying. If i was posting 25 times a day how terrible Greene is (like some does every day of the season) nobody would say anything. And actually many times i'm not even mentioning Lou. Im saying a GM shouldn't do things a certain way IMO, i said the same thing about the Blue Jackets last year, i said the same thing about MTL years ago. It's you guys making the connection. Understand that it's not LOU im targeting personally, it's the flawed approach. And looking at the huge dive the Blue Jacket took it's hard to deny.

so if i mentioned something about it through a discussion cause its actually relevant to the point (lets not pretend we're not still having repercussions to this day) just don't engage so it won't become a bigger thing.  

Edited by SterioDesign

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14 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Hey i get it. People can't stand hearing an opinion going against theres, especially when its taboo like this so sure it's annoying. If i was posting 25 times a day how terrible Greene is (like some does every day of the season) nobody would say anything. And actually many times i'm not even mentioning Lou. Im saying a GM shouldn't do things a certain way IMO, i said the same thing about the Blue Jackets last year, i said the same thing about MTL years ago. It's you guys making the connection. Understand that it's not LOU im targeting personally, it's the flawed approach. And looking at the huge dive the Blue Jacket took it's hard to deny.

so if i mentioned something about it through a discussion cause its actually relevant to the point (lets not pretend we're not still having repercussions to this day) just don't engage so it won't become a bigger thing.  

That’s because Andy Greene currently plays for the New Jersey Devils...

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13 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

And looking at the huge dive the Blue Jacket took it's hard to deny.

The Blue Jackets haven't taken a dive yet. Their season without those players hasn't begun yet. It was pretty well understood that the Islanders minus Tavares would be in dire straits, yet somehow they managed a better season than they had with him the prior year. I'm not saying the Blue Jackets do the same, but I am saying not to pronounce the winner before the opening bell. The likelihood is that the Blue Jackets will suffer in the standings due to the players they lost, but at the same time, it isn't our job on the line to see to it that doesn't happen. That dubious honor goes to Jarmo Kekalainen, though I agree with you that the odds do not seem to be in his favor.

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4 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

That’s because Andy Greene currently plays for the New Jersey Devils...

No it's cause he currently have a negative impact on the team to some. Management can cripple any teams for a long time and you're still living with the consequences years later. Like fans sh!tting on Shero for not building a contender within 2 years. As if it's his fault we had no team, no prospects and no assets to make it better right away. Hell many fans here kept bringing up how bad Kovalchuk was doing this year. He was not playing for us.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, NewarkDevil5 said:

The Blue Jackets haven't taken a dive yet. Their season without those players hasn't begun yet. It was pretty well understood that the Islanders minus Tavares would be in dire straits, yet somehow they managed a better season than they had with him the prior year. I'm not saying the Blue Jackets do the same, but I am saying not to pronounce the winner before the opening bell. The likelihood is that the Blue Jackets will suffer in the standings due to the players they lost, but at the same time, it isn't our job on the line to see to it that doesn't happen. That dubious honor goes to Jarmo Kekalainen, though I agree with you that the odds do not seem to be in his favor.

You're bringing a fair point. But even if they'd make the playoffs this year or wtv... there's no way to sugarcoat losing all those assets for nothing, no matter what they do this season, it would be better if they got ANYTHING for all those top guys leaving. 

like imagine what the islanders could have done with Tavares this year for example

 

Edited by SterioDesign

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

No it's cause he currently have a negative impact on the team to some. Management can cripple any teams for a long time and you're still living with the consequences years later. Like fans sh!tting on Shero for not building a contender within 2 years. As if it's his fault we had no team, no prospects and no assets to make it better right away. Hell many fans here kept bringing up how bad Kovalchuk was doing this year. He was not playing for us.

I was really the only one bringing up Kovalchuk, and that was because some were making a big deal out of his KHL numbers and thought he would return to the NHL almost without missing a beat.  I was curious to see how he would do last season after no longer playing for an insanely stacked team, having aged significantly.  I thought it was worth tracking how he would do.

He wound up performing even worse than I expected...I had his over/under at 25 goals, and I thought he’d start off fairly well, but would eventually wear down, as he had gotten used to playing a much lesser (especially in terms of games played) schedule in the KHL.  

What’s funny is that some people even now were willing to make excuses for his lack of production.  I think it’s fairly simple...guy’s just not what he was, and underestimated the challenge involved in trying to come back to a superior league after having exhausted his prime years.

Edited by Colorado Rockies 1976

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17 hours ago, bobilly45 said:

Nhl network gave hall a 30% chance of being resigned before July 1.

20190813_181023.jpg

My short rant:  one of the stupidest intellectual developments in recent years has been putting a percentage chance of how a one-time event will turn out.  Examples, "My super secret algorithim says there's a 40% chance Mr. Jones will win the upcoming election" or like here "there's a 30% chance that Taylor Hall will re-sign with the Devils." 

I predict with a 99% certainty that extraterrestrials will land in the middle of Time Square tomorrow.  When it doesn't happen, I'll say I never said it was certainty.

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3 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I was the really only one bringing up Kovalchuk, and that was because some were making a big deal out of his KHL numbers and thought he would return to the NHL almost without missing a beat.  I was curious to see how he would do last season after no longer playing for an insanely stacked team, having aged significantly.  I thought it was worth tracking how he would do.

He wound up performing even worse than I expected...I had his over/under at 25 goals, and I thought he’d start off fairly well, but eventually wear down, as he had gotten used to playing a much lesser (especially in terms of games played) schedule in the KHL.  

yeah im not saying it was a bad thing to bring up. I was saying it can still be relevant to bring up stuff about players, coaches, etc even if they are not currently on the team

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1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

Hey i get it. People can't stand hearing an opinion going against theres, especially when its taboo like this so sure it's annoying. If i was posting 25 times a day how terrible Greene is (like some does every day of the season) nobody would say anything. And actually many times i'm not even mentioning Lou. Im saying a GM shouldn't do things a certain way IMO, i said the same thing about the Blue Jackets last year, i said the same thing about MTL years ago. It's you guys making the connection. Understand that it's not LOU im targeting personally, it's the flawed approach. And looking at the huge dive the Blue Jacket took it's hard to deny.

so if i mentioned something about it through a discussion cause its actually relevant to the point (lets not pretend we're not still having repercussions to this day) just don't engage so it won't become a bigger thing.  

Thanks for not saying Zacha. 

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1 hour ago, SterioDesign said:

You're bringing a fair point. But even if they'd make the playoffs this year or wtv... there's no way to sugarcoat losing all those assets for nothing, no matter what they do this season, it would be better if they got ANYTHING for all those top guys leaving. 

like imagine what the islanders could have done with Tavares this year for example

 

How bad management of SJ is?

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

San Jose? in what sense? 

They lost Pav for nothing. He was their C with beautiful stats and went to their competitors. And Marleau story.

Edited by Guadana

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Guadana said:

They lost Pav for nothing. He was their C with beautiful stats and went to their competitors. And Marleau story.

Yeah i'm not as familiar with their situation. The only sticking point is Pav and Marleau walking and them trading Clowe at the deadline few years ago while they were in the playoffs. 

So i don't see much of an unbalanced "pattern" in this case. Not even sure it was the same GM then either... but the fact they traded Clowe probably meant they had a discussion and knew it would be better to move on for the long term.

Personally I don't really care who's in charge and for who... As a manager or wtv... if you're in control of a valuable asset. And you don't do your homeworks getting a sense of his intentions or having discussions with his agent before his last season (or during) so that you have some or all the informations you need before the season or at the deadline in order to make the best decision for the club... then you're failing at doing your job correctly. The goal is to keep full control over your assets and not giving away all your leverage unless you're choosing to. Past the deadline your leverage is very minimal. 

So in this case if SJ's GM had a discussion with Pavelski at some point before the deadline. Was aware of Pavelski's intentions (I guess he was looking for 7m dollars for 3 years.) SJ was well positioned in the playoffs so then he could really make the decision with all the infos he needed. Decided to sacrifice Pav for a run or wtv because he knew he wouldnt want to commit to a contract like that but needed him for a run. Then i'm totally fine with that, kind of a gamble but at least i get it.

It's going systematically blind into a decision like this and sacrificing your leverage that i'm totally against.

 

edit: and please understand im replying to a question here. 

Edited by SterioDesign

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40 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Yeah i'm not as familiar with their situation. The only sticking point is Pav and Marleau walking and them trading Clowe at the deadline few years ago while they were in the playoffs. 

So i don't see much of an unbalanced "pattern" in this case. Not even sure it was the same GM then either... but the fact they traded Clowe probably meant they had a discussion and knew it would be better to move on for the long term.

Personally I don't really care who's in charge and for who... As a manager or wtv... if you're in control of a valuable asset. And you don't do your homeworks getting a sense of his intentions or having discussions with his agent before his last season (or during) so that you have some or all the informations you need before the season or at the deadline in order to make the best decision for the club... then you're failing at doing your job correctly. The goal is to keep full control over your assets and not giving away all your leverage unless you're choosing to. Past the deadline your leverage is very minimal. 

So in this case if SJ's GM had a discussion with Pavelski at some point before the deadline. Was aware of Pavelski's intentions (I guess he was looking for 7m dollars for 3 years.) SJ was well positioned in the playoffs so then he could really make the decision with all the infos he needed. Decided to sacrifice Pav for a run or wtv because he knew he wouldnt want to commit to a contract like that but needed him for a run. Then i'm totally fine with that, kind of a gamble but at least i get it.

It's going systematically blind into a decision like this and sacrificing your leverage that i'm totally against.

 

edit: and please understand im replying to a question here. 

So... maybe this is something that regularly happened with team that actually had some reasons of deep run?

with this logic all you say negative about Lou how often big names out for nothing over and over - it’s picture of big and competitive devils house that Lou built. In no-success periods we had no precident.

And maybe all of what you say about Lou - is a big compliment for Lou of how long he did what he did because it’s real life. 

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27 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Yeah i'm not as familiar with their situation. The only sticking point is Pav and Marleau walking and them trading Clowe at the deadline few years ago while they were in the playoffs. 

So i don't see much of an unbalanced "pattern" in this case. Not even sure it was the same GM then either... but the fact they traded Clowe probably meant they had a discussion and knew it would be better to move on for the long term.

Personally I don't really care who's in charge and for who... As a manager or wtv... if you're in control of a valuable asset. And you don't do your homeworks getting a sense of his intentions or having discussions with his agent before his last season (or during) so that you have some or all the informations you need before the season or at the deadline in order to make the best decision for the club... then you're failing at doing your job correctly. The goal is to keep full control over your assets and not giving away all your leverage unless you're choosing to. Past the deadline your leverage is very minimal. 

So in this case if SJ's GM had a discussion with Pavelski at some point before the deadline. Was aware of Pavelski's intentions (I guess he was looking for 7m dollars for 3 years.) SJ was well positioned in the playoffs so then he could really make the decision with all the infos he needed. Decided to sacrifice Pav for a run or wtv because he knew he wouldnt want to commit to a contract like that but needed him for a run. Then i'm totally fine with that, kind of a gamble but at least i get it.

It's going systematically blind into a decision like this and sacrificing your leverage that i'm totally against.

I think one of the main miscommunications is that you personally believe that there is only one correct way to build a team and that therefore your idea must be the right one, which means in your mind every other philosophy is inherently wrong. Your idea is great from a perspective of low-risk asset management. It makes sure that no piece is ever lost for nothing, which is something a lot of GM's subscribe to and its absolutely something fans are behind. 

Other GM's might not operate the same way. For example, some GM's in smaller markets are more motivated by cost savings and keeping salaries down. Some GM's lean hard on analytics. 

Lou is a big believer in the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that the "right" player is better than someone who might be considered a more talented player. He's very big on the culture of the room which is why a guy like Esa Tikkanen might have been what we needed on the ice but only lasted about 15 minutes in NJ. And it worked a long time for him so even though I don't necessarily agree with all of his decisions, I certainly don't blame him for sticking with his personal beliefs. He was not very good at adapting and growing with the game obviously, and it ultimately cost him in NJ. His approach may be just what the Isles needed though. We'll have to see how next year goes for them to see if it was a one-and-done situation. 

What I love about Shero is that he seems to use the best of these different ideas with how he is putting this team together. 

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50 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

I think one of the main miscommunications is that you personally believe that there is only one correct way to build a team and that therefore your idea must be the right one, which means in your mind every other philosophy is inherently wrong. Your idea is great from a perspective of low-risk asset management. It makes sure that no piece is ever lost for nothing, which is something a lot of GM's subscribe to and its absolutely something fans are behind. 

Other GM's might not operate the same way. For example, some GM's in smaller markets are more motivated by cost savings and keeping salaries down. Some GM's lean hard on analytics. 

Lou is a big believer in the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that the "right" player is better than someone who might be considered a more talented player. He's very big on the culture of the room which is why a guy like Esa Tikkanen might have been what we needed on the ice but only lasted about 15 minutes in NJ. And it worked a long time for him so even though I don't necessarily agree with all of his decisions, I certainly don't blame him for sticking with his personal beliefs. He was not very good at adapting and growing with the game obviously, and it ultimately cost him in NJ. His approach may be just what the Isles needed though. We'll have to see how next year goes for them to see if it was a one-and-done situation. 

What I love about Shero is that he seems to use the best of these different ideas with how he is putting this team together. 

Well the biggest misconception is that i don't like Lou and that i don't like his moves because i don't like him. Couldnt be further from the truth. I dont like the way Shero does things because he's Shero either. I like him because he does thing in a systematic way that i agree with generally. I don't think you have to lock up all your players before their last season either. It's really not that black and white. But with Lou it kind of was and that's the problem

I also don't think there's only one way to build a team. I fully agree with you with different markets, depending on the situation with the team and all that... well my biggest complain about Lou is something you seem to agree with partially. That he always refused to adapt and change his ways when it was needed, would rather die by his ways than to adapt. The few times he did go out of his way he almost had to have a gun to his head.

And like you mentioned. Shero adapted well from having 2 of the best centers in the league. So getting wingers and convincing them is not as hard as signing guys to play with zacha and zajac you know lol he used his cap room and other ways to get players he needed and was really patient. I feel Lou was always all-out, no matter what. Which works when the team is in a position to be succesful but when its not its a terrible approach.

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44 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Well the biggest misconception is that i don't like Lou and that i don't like his moves because i don't like him. Couldnt be further from the truth. I dont like the way Shero does things because he's Shero either. I like him because he does thing in a systematic way that i agree with generally. I don't think you have to lock up all your players before their last season either. It's really not that black and white. But with Lou it kind of was and that's the problem

I also don't think there's only one way to build a team. I fully agree with you with different markets, depending on the situation with the team and all that... well my biggest complain about Lou is something you seem to agree with partially. That he always refused to adapt and change his ways when it was needed, would rather die by his ways than to adapt. The few times he did go out of his way he almost had to have a gun to his head.

And like you mentioned. Shero adapted well from having 2 of the best centers in the league. So getting wingers and convincing them is not as hard as signing guys to play with zacha and zajac you know lol he used his cap room and other ways to get players he needed and was really patient. I feel Lou was always all-out, no matter what. Which works when the team is in a position to be succesful but when its not its a terrible approach.

Interesting thing is IIRC Lou didn't start doing the "all-out, no matter what" kind of thing until early 2000s. Before that he'd usually trade the player before the deal was up. In some ways it's kind of ironic because I remember an interview in the mid to late 90s where he was sitting there implicitly poking fun of Neil Smith for his sacrifice the future to win now mentality. In those days hold-outs and impending UFA's often got traded either for value or draft picks. I think as Marty got older he was trying to keep things going at all costs. The only big UFA I remember losing in the 90s was Bruce Driver. I'm not including the UFA rentals we got like Gilmour and Housley because it was understood going in that those were more than likely rentals. Discontented players typically got traded quickly. Guys like MacLean, Lemieux, Richer, and Guerin come to mind. We used to always have a full complement if not more than 1 pick in a given round of draft picks in the 90s.

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After thinking about it for 3 weeks . I'll be happy regardless what happens. He is a good guy and wish him the best. No hard feelings if he tampa's 

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On 8/15/2019 at 10:57 PM, pumpkin cutter said:

After thinking about it for 3 weeks . I'll be happy regardless what happens. He is a good guy and wish him the best. No hard feelings if he tampa's 

I've come to the same thought about this, however I would like him to come forward and make a decision one way or the other so we can start to prepare to move forward. Best case scenario if he doesn't want to stay, no problem.. ask him where he would like to play and start discussing with those clubs the possibility of extending hall and trading him with another piece for an elite talent back to us. at this point, gotta keep it moving. 

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Imo, Hall is going to wait and see if this is a playoff team.. if we make the playoffs and our goalie situation is nhl caliber, he will probably sign.. the success of the team will decide it. Money is not an issue..location is not an issue..

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8 minutes ago, EdgeControl said:

Imo, Hall is going to wait and see if this is a playoff team.. if we make the playoffs and our goalie situation is nhl caliber, he will probably sign.. the success of the team will decide it. Money is not an issue..location is not an issue..

Shero can not let it come to that. If he doesn’t want to put ink on paper after the incredible offseason the Devils had; find a suitor and ship him off. 

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