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Hughes or Kakko


Hughes or Kakko?  

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9 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

While I do not subscribe to Marty being the best goalie in NHL history narrative, I won't deny he was very talented and had a really long prime.

I can be alright with Marty the goalie but not so much like Marty the person.

I'm not even so sure he was the best of his era...Hasek was a better puck-stopper, Roy was a bit more clutch (in spite of the fact that he was a bit of a loon and a little too tightly wound at time) and still had something left in the tank when he called it quits.  I've always considered Marty among the best of all time though.  I think those GOAT arguments are really hard to make definitively. 

As for Marty the person, in his book he does seem to acknowledge that he has some flaws and even called himself a model idiot at one point.  I'm not saying that I can't see why some people don't find him to be some swell guy, but more that I'm surprised that even to this day, the full package is as polarizing as it seems to be, given everything.  So many other franchises would've killed for a goalie like him...I'm not knocking our fanbase, but I guess I wonder if some others would have been more "forgiving"? 

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Here's a write-up from StevenToddIves, a journalist on HFBoards:

Man, hard not to get excited about seeing Hughes wearing a Devils uni on the ice come October...feels preordained at this point.  Team has the potential to be pretty entertaining (especially if they c

*** Okay well sorry for the non-Hughes/Kakko related post *** Met her last year in Toronto (along with Michael J. Fox, Chris Lloyd and Tom Wilson) and told her it was one of my biggest dream to h

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4 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

 

As for Marty the person, in his book he does seem to acknowledge that he has some flaws and even called himself a model idiot at one point.  I'm not saying that I can't see why some people don't find him to be some swell guy, but more that I'm surprised that even to this day, the full package is as polarizing as it seems to be, given everything.  So many other franchises would've killed for a goalie like him...I'm not knocking our fanbase, but I guess I wonder if some others would have been more "forgiving"? 

I wouldn’t use the word ‘polarizing’. It makes it seem that there are fans that absolutely detest Marty through and through. I just think there are some fans who love the player but aren’t enamored with his persona. They dont hate the guy but just aren’t that into some of his off ice stuff. 

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23 minutes ago, devlman said:

Was it the Elias retirement ceremony where Marty looked like he couldn’t give two sh!ts. I almost expected him to look at his watch.

also bothered me how he never acknowledged Brylin in his HOF speech (again I could be wrong but that’s what I recall)

Yup he had the sourpuss look on him at the Elias retirement ceremony.  However, I actually won't go after him about it as there could be a million different reasons why he looked that way.

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24 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I'm not even so sure he was the best of his era...Hasek was a better puck-stopper, Roy was a bit more clutch (in spite of the fact that he was a bit of a loon and a little too tightly wound at time) and still had something left in the tank when he called it quits.  I've always considered Marty among the best of all time though.  I think those GOAT arguments are really hard to make definitively. 

As for Marty the person, in his book he does seem to acknowledge that he has some flaws and even called himself a model idiot at one point.  I'm not saying that I can't see why some people don't find him to be some swell guy, but more that I'm surprised that even to this day, the full package is as polarizing as it seems to be, given everything.  So many other franchises would've killed for a goalie like him...I'm not knocking our fanbase, but I guess I wonder if some others would have been more "forgiving"? 

You should see the reactions I get when I tell people Marty is not even in my top 20 favorite Devils players of all time.  They act like I just killed their dog and spit in their child's face.

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33 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I, personally, was rooting for him as a player. Anything else he did, whatever. 

A billion percent this.  Whether he's the best goalie of all time or not, Marty was, more or less, probably the single greatest reason we have each of our 3 Cups, and had 15 or so years or consistent/competitive/sometimes-dominant play, and for that, I'll always be thankful and admire him as a player.  Off the ice and as an individual?  Never loved him or hated him, in part because I don't really care - that goes for him or anyone else.  I don't have him for a next-door neighbor, and he never cut in front of me in line at the grocery store, so to me he's just another person.  Whatever happened in terms of his marital life, and how he conducts himself in everyday situations, that's his business.  

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9 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

You should see the reactions I get when I tell people Marty is not even in my top 20 favorite Devils players of all time.  They act like I just killed their dog and spit in their child's face.

Everyone's entitled to their own list, and I'm sure you have your reasons - and while I wouldn't at all act like you killed my dog, to hear you say he's not in your top 20 is indeed a bit surprising.  

I mean, my favorite player all-time was, and probably still is, Petr Sykora, for a few reasons, but at a certain point my own personal and somewhat random reasons for liking players is eventually trumped by a player's impact and what he meant to the franchise, regardless of whether or not they are actual likable, either by myself or the general public, and as I mentioned above, Marty is probably #1 or #2 in that category, so it definitely seems a little odd to have him on the outside of 20 looking in.

Edited by NJDfan1711
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7 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

You should see the reactions I get when I tell people Marty is not even in my top 20 favorite Devils players of all time.  They act like I just killed their dog and spit in their child's face.

He was always way up there for me, but never my absolute "favorite".  All-time it's John MacLean, and I'm not sure what would change that (Dano was up there too).  After Mac it was Rafalski for a while, and then I'd have to say Parise for a stretch.  Right now it's clearly Palms (not that I haven't made that one obvious), followed by Zajac.  Zajac is just one of those players I root hard for to do well...I'd love to see the team make a nice playoff run while he's still here.

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1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

All-time it's John MacLean, and I'm not sure what would change that

lol imagine if he began coaching the devils, did an absolutely abhorrent job and was solely responsible for breaking a decade-long playoff streak hahaha can you even imagine. 

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Just now, MB3 said:

lol imagine if he began coaching the devils, did an absolutely abhorrent job and was solely responsible for breaking a decade-long playoff streak hahaha can you even imagine. 

You have no idea how much it killed me to see Johnny Mac fail so miserably as the Devils' HC.  Compared to everything that came before it, I can't say that it killed what his time as a player meant...I basically almost act like that brutal HC stint never happened.  But man, no arguments...he was woefully unfit to coach an NHL team, and it was very painful to see that reality unfold so conclusively.  Even more sad for me than when he announced during a pregame show that he'd asked Lou to trade him, and that one bummed me out pretty badly.

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2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

  I think those GOAT arguments are really hard to make definitively. 

I can only think of one player in any sport you can say that about. Wayne Gretzky. dude was playing a different game than everyone else before, during and after. 

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Just now, mfitz804 said:

I can only think of one player in any sport you can say that about. Wayne Gretzky. dude was playing a different game than everyone else before, during and after. 

I tend to agree, but Gordie Howe was pretty special in the era that he played in too.  Guy put up 103 points as a 40-year-old (in an era not known for being offensive). 

Just now, MadDog2020 said:

 

I can't see Ray not taking him. 

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19 hours ago, 2ELIAS6 said:

theres nothing to watch, its just a marketing thing to invite fans to come out to the arena and they are going to try selling them that "membership" package

 

Sorry. I thought it was an open house with the entry draft which I will watch the first 15 minutes!

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24 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I tend to agree, but Gordie Howe was pretty special in the era that he played in too.  Guy put up 103 points as a 40-year-old (in an era not known for being offensive). 

Not saying he wasn't, but if you ask me "who was the greatest hockey player of all time", I'm not going to blink before saying Wayne over Gordie. Complete domination of the game, and made everyone around him better. A lot better. I mean, you could argue that there's at least one guy in the Hall of Fame primarily from playing on his line. 

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2 hours ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Everyone's entitled to their own list, and I'm sure you have your reasons - and while I wouldn't at all act like you killed my dog, to hear you say he's not in your top 20 is indeed a bit surprising.  

I mean, my favorite player all-time was, and probably still is, Petr Sykora, for a few reasons, but at a certain point my own personal and somewhat random reasons for liking players is eventually trumped by a player's impact and what he meant to the franchise, regardless of whether or not they are actual likable, either by myself or the general public, and as I mentioned above, Marty is probably #1 or #2 in that category, so it definitely seems a little odd to have him on the outside of 20 looking in.

I would argue that the 3 cups were team efforts more than anything.  In 2000 Marty was great in the finals, but leading up to them he was somewhat shaky.  Likewise I can say we may have a 4th cup up there if it wasn't for Marty in 2001, who was pretty brutal in those finals.  However it is largely moot at that point and I don't want to get into the whole butterfly effect of what would have happened if we did win that cup in 01.

Again, Marty just never endeared himself to me.  He always came off as arrogant and aloof to me and even sometimes nasty when things were not going his way.  It doesn't mean I wish he was never a Devils (like KK), but I am very confident in saying I can easily name 20 Devils right off the top of my head that I just happen to personally like more.  Petr Sykora would definitely be one of them FWIW.

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45 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I can't see Ray not taking him. 

That's the look of someone who was just given a "wink wink" that the Devils are going to draft him.

Edited by Neb00rs
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5 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

That's the look of someone who was just given a "wink wink" that the Devils are going to draft him.

lets go! I'm excited to see what this kid is going to do for us. hopefully he comes in and is able to make an immediate impact.

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From one of the smarter Devils fans over at HF (StevenToddIves) :

 

"So in the end, the WHC solidified Jack Hughes standing as the #1 overall pick in the 2019 draft and solidified Kappo Kakko's standing as the #2 overall pick. There is not an argument in my estimation, nor should there be.

Though these are both outstanding prospects, Hughes' electrifying effect on the pace of a game with precision and immediacy are rare; he pushes back an entire opposition defensively the moment he gets the puck. Hughes was deployed poorly all tournament by a borderline incompetent coach in Jeff Blashill -- this only ended in the Russia game when, due to Dylan Larkin's injury, Blashill saw it fit to give Hughes a consistent shift. A mediocre checking line center like Glendening still received more ice time than Hughes, but at least Hughes was given a shot every four shifts. What was the result? Well, on a team loaded with NHL all-stars, Hughes was the best forward in the game for Team USA and the most dangerous player on the ice for virtually every shift in the final two periods. He dominated the pace of what amounted to an NHL all-star game, and did so in the week of his 18th birthday. Jack Hughes is the #1 player in the 2019 draft.

It is absolutely crucial to note that, despite what some vitriolic fans on the main boards will tell you, this sort of much-deserved praise for Jack Hughes is in no way a slight on Kappo Kakko. Kakko was dominant in the first two games of the tourney, and though he slowed a bit when opposition defenses began keying on him in the later games, he still played well all tournament long. He answered (unfair) questions about his skating and passing, and the fact that opposing defenses seemed to be focusing on stopping him was a compliment in and of itself. Kappo Kakko is the #2 player in the 2019 draft.

Though "recency bias" is usually based on ignorance, it was very important for Kakko to play well. Think about this: if Kakko had not scored those 5 goals in the first two games of the tourney, after Bowen Byram's historic performance in the Memorial Cup Playoffs there would be several fans clamoring for Byram to be the #2 pick despite all the scouting evidence favoring Kakko -- just as there were several fans clamoring for Kakko to be the #1 pick after just two tournament games despite all the scouting evidence favoring Hughes.

In conclusion, the only event we have remaining to judge the players for the 2019 entry draft is the scouting combine. Jack Hughes is still #1, Kappo Kakko is still #2 and, I think we can now say, that Bowen Byram is a clear #3. How everything else shakes out will be a ton of fun to watch, and we can look forward to putting the (invented) Hughes controversy behind us and focus on the how the rest of the 2019 draft will turn out. "

 

>>> So does everyone agree with this?   Hughes is #1, Kakko is #2, and Bowan Byram is a CLEAR #3??

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3 hours ago, devlman said:

Was it the Elias retirement ceremony where Marty looked like he couldn’t give two sh!ts. I almost expected him to look at his watch.

also bothered me how he never acknowledged Brylin in his HOF speech (again I could be wrong but that’s what I recall)

I never make assumptions on what someone is THINKING based on facial expressions or body language, especially when it came to Marty and Patty. 

To my knowledge (and everyone else's), there has never been a hint of bad blood between Patty and Marty to have an expression as you describe.   

 

I think it was something else he was thinking about.   He's got his own family so maybe it was about that.     

As far as Sarge goes, I'm sure he just forgot accidentally.  I bet he had already said his Thank-You's to Sarge afterward or even before the ceremony anyway.  

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37 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I would argue that the 3 cups were team efforts more than anything.  In 2000 Marty was great in the finals, but leading up to them he was somewhat shaky.  Likewise I can say we may have a 4th cup up there if it wasn't for Marty in 2001, who was pretty brutal in those finals.  However it is largely moot at that point and I don't want to get into the whole butterfly effect of what would have happened if we did win that cup in 01.

Again, Marty just never endeared himself to me.  He always came off as arrogant and aloof to me and even sometimes nasty when things were not going his way.  It doesn't mean I wish he was never a Devils (like KK), but I am very confident in saying I can easily name 20 Devils right off the top of my head that I just happen to personally like more.  Petr Sykora would definitely be one of them FWIW.

Uhh...you do remember who was on the other side, right?    

 

Patrick Friggin' Roy.  

He was under siege for a good time during the games by NJ.      He just stood on his head. 

 

It's not like Martin Jones was on the other end and everyone is like "Oh my god!  Marty was brutal in losing to a team with Martin Jones in net!". 

Patrick Roy beat Martin Brodeur.     HOF'er beats HOF'er.      

All one can do is shrug his or her shoulders and move on. 

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