2019 Offseason Thread

[MadDog2020]

https://nypost.com/2019/07/07/nhl-players-a-j-greer-sonny-milano-arrested-in-nyc-brawl/

[DevilMinder]

5 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

https://nypost.com/2019/07/07/nhl-players-a-j-greer-sonny-milano-arrested-in-nyc-brawl/

I am sure between the two of them it wasn't worth getting assault charges over a large bar tab jeez.

And the next article recommendation has Brooks breathlessly extolling his belief that Taylor halls contract negotiations begin at 13 million per year. Jeez.

Quote

 

You begin at $13M per and watch the bidding escalate for this dynamic, difference-making winger — who will turn 28 on Nov. 14, 15 days after Panarin blows out the same number of candles on his birthday cake.

 

[Neb00rs]

8 hours ago, Nicomo said:

But Panarin is worth 11.6? He’s 6 years older, and has never cracked 90 points like Marner has.

 

1 hour ago, MB3 said:

Panarin’s worth more because he doesn’t have 4 1sts attached to him. 

And yes, I would have given Panarin 11.6 in a fvcking heartbeat.

Yeah, what MB3 said.

But I would argue Panarin is a more proven player as well. For two of Panarin's four seasons (all of which have been good) he played on a Columbus Blue Jackets team without an elite player aside from himself. He scored 169 ponts in 160 games as a Jacket. The next closest over that timeframe was Cam Atkinson who scored 115 points in 145 games. In Columbus he didn't even have another point per game player on the team with him or someone even close to it. Panarin clearly is going to be a star no matter where he is in the league - he's the player to build around. Not sure we even needed to go to stats, everyone here knows that there are times during the season when Panarin is second-to-none as far as wingers in the league go. 

And by the way, if Toronto gives Marner 11M I wouldn't think it outrageous. I just feel like it's a bit of an overpayment based on one big season playing with John Tavares - but given what they gave Matthews, Toronto probably has to do at least 11M/5 for Marner. Maybe they get the cap hit down just a bit more on an 8 year deal. 

As far as Panarin being six years older goes - well, that's not really relevant. Panarin is in his prime, he's not diminishing - players often get their biggest contracts in their first UFA eligible years, not when they're 22. There's only three players in the league right now under 25 who have cap hits above 9M. McDavid (12.5M) - understandable, Eichel (10M) - a bit questionable after his first two NHL seasons were sub-60 points but I sort of get the the risk for the sake of later value, and unfortunately for Toronto re: Marner negotiations, Matthews (11.6M).

Edited July 7, 2019 by Neb00rs

[titans04]

Love Taylor and believe he does sign here and without too much stress, but no way in hell should it take anywhere near 13M.  To me that's crazy.

[2ELIAS6]

4 minutes ago, titans04 said:

Love Taylor and believe he does sign here and without too much stress, but no way in hell should it take anywhere near 13M.  To me that's crazy.

13M for Hall is just ridiculous. Given his track record with injuries we would be paying Hall 13M and lets be honest, we probably aren't getting full seasons out of him moving forward.

[Neb00rs]

33 minutes ago, DevilMinder said:

I am sure between the two of them it wasn't worth getting assault charges over a large bar tab jeez.

And the next article recommendation has Brooks breathlessly extolling his belief that Taylor halls contract negotiations begin at 13 million per year. Jeez.

 

I don't see any reason why the Devils would "begin at 13 million per year." Why? Because the rumored offer from CBJ to Panarin, which he didn't take, was 12M?

That said, I think Panarin's UFA will factor into Hall's agent's negotiations and it's not totally crazy to think talks could have some bumps. Should the Devils really just pay Hall whatever he wants? He'll be 29 when the new contract starts and he has dealt with various health issues throughout his career - both of which are points the Devils should probably raise in negotiations. How much do the Devils have to lowball Hall for him to want to see what July 1st, 2020 has to offer?

I'm not trying to spell doom, these are just the questions I have been asking myself. I think Hall wants to win more than he wants eke out every last dollar - so the Devils putting a really good team together right now helps them make a more persuasive case for a sub-Brooks hysteria level cap hit. 

[mfitz804]

Just now, MB3 said:

Panarin’s worth more because he doesn’t have 4 1sts attached to him. 

And yes, I would have given Panarin 11.6 in a fvcking heartbeat.

Well, he’s worth more $$, or his $11.6 costs less than the same amount to Marner, that’s definitely true. 

28 minutes ago, titans04 said:

Love Taylor and believe he does sign here and without too much stress, but no way in hell should it take anywhere near 13M.  To me that's crazy.

He’s not getting $13m. 

[Devilsfan118]

52 minutes ago, titans04 said:

Love Taylor and believe he does sign here and without too much stress, but no way in hell should it take anywhere near 13M.  To me that's crazy.

Yeah I love the guy, want him to retire a devil and all that, but if his honest-to-god ask is 13 million... Trade him.

If the guy wants to win, which by all accounts is his number one priority at this point, he should understand that taking up that much cap space isn't the way to do it.

[titans04]

I would bet it's just Brooks pulling some more crap out of his ass.  Yet here we are debating it.  

[Daniel]

We can speculate just as easily that Hall will accept something of a discount (say the Seguin contract taking taxes into account) to allow Ray to make a huge splash and get a Marner or Laine and taking into account what the organization has done for him over the past three plus years.  

Going back to the four first rounders for Marner, I don’t think it should deter us at all if it can otherwise work out.  You have to assume the team will be very good immediately, and none of those picks will be lottery picks.  We have a ton of prospects in the system, some of whom have not even signed their ELCs that should be able to play those bottom six/bottom pairing roles that help keep the team cap compliant without having to rely on the first rounders to do it.  

If the time comes that we have to sell someone like Boqvist or an improved Zacha at something of a discount for cap reasons, so be it. It didn’t kill the Capitols having to do that with Mojo.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Daniel

[Devilsfan118]

1 hour ago, titans04 said:

I would bet it's just Brooks pulling some more crap out of his ass.  Yet here we are debating it.  

We've entered peak off-season lol

Edited July 7, 2019 by Devilsfan118

[NJDevils1214]

I need it to be October. 

[Neb00rs]

32 minutes ago, Daniel said:

We can speculate just as easily that Hall will accept something of a discount (say the Seguin contract taking taxes into account) to allow Ray to make a huge splash and get a Marner or Laine and taking into account what the organization has done for him over the past three plus years.  

Going back to the four first rounders for Marner, I don’t think it should deter us at all if it can otherwise work out.  You have to assume the team will be very good immediately, and none of those picks will be lottery picks.  We have a ton of prospects in the system, some of whom have not even signed their ELCs that should be able to play those bottom six/bottom pairing roles that help keep the team cap compliant without having to rely on the first rounders to do it.  

If the time comes that we have to sell someone like Boqvist or an improved Zacha at something of a discount for cap reasons, so be it. It didn’t kill the Capitols having to do that with Mojo.

There's a contradiction in your statement above. On one hand you imply that any picks but lottery picks are not that valuable or likely to pan out and on the other you seem to think there's a high likelihood that a bevy of non-lottery pick prospects in our system are going to be capable NHLers. You need your mid to late first round draft picks because even though you're right, they often turn into nothing, they also often turn into something. You can get away with a scrub or two on your roster but it's not like the bottom six is entirely unimportant. It's entirely possible that of the [non-Jack Hughes] prospects in the Devils system right now, that aside from Smith, none turn into NHL-caliber players.

As far as Marner goes, it seems unlikely to me he joins the Devils and him staying in Toronto is good news for the Devils anyway, as it doesn't open up a spot on the Leafs for Taylor Hall, who seemingly loves Toronto and spends his entire offseasons there.

[Daniel]

2 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

There's a contradiction in your statement above. On one hand you imply that any picks but lottery picks are not that valuable or likely to pan out and on the other you seem to think there's a high likelihood that a bevy of non-lottery pick prospects in our system are going to be capable NHLers. You need your mid to late first round draft picks because even though you're right, they often turn into nothing, they also often turn into something. You can get away with a scrub or two on your roster but it's not like the bottom six is entirely unimportant. It's entirely possible that of the [non-Jack Hughes] prospects in the Devils system right now, that aside from Smith, none turn into NHL-caliber players.

As far as Marner goes, it seems unlikely to me he joins the Devils and him staying in Toronto is good news for the Devils anyway, as it doesn't open up a spot on the Leafs for Taylor Hall, who seemingly loves Toronto and spends his entire offseasons there.

There’s no contradiction.  We’ve had a lot of picks in general over the past four drafts, including this one.  The sheer volume of players selected and the fact that the non-first rounders don’t need to be homeruns means we can live without what figure to be non-lottery picks.  

And I don’t see Hall having any desire to play for a Canadian team ever again, based on how he was treated in Edmonton and how media jackasses there still spread rumors about him.  That’s just my speculation though.

Otherwise Marner is almost the same player as Patrick Kane.  You would easily give up four first rounder to have that type of player at age 22.  The bigger issue is whether he prevents you from doing other things you need to do because of his salary.

[LittleBallofHate]

16 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

As far as Marner goes, it seems unlikely to me he joins the Devils and him staying in Toronto is good news for the Devils anyway, as it doesn't open up a spot on the Leafs for Taylor Hall, who seemingly loves Toronto and spends his entire offseasons there.

Not sure where you're getting all the Toronto love from but he spends his off seasons there training. And he just started spending his off seasons there recently - this is from an April 2018 SI article: 

Upon returning from Coachella, Hall moved into a downtown Toronto apartment to spend the offseason with Andy O’Brien, the longtime trainer of Sidney Crosby. In years’ past Hall had always worked out in his hometown of Windsor, Ontario, under the supervision of his father, whose inventive programs included bobsled-based acceleration drills and catching mini footballs to train spacial awareness. But Hall wanted to skate and conduct on-ice skill work alongside fellow NHLers in the city.

ETA: quote taken from this article https://www.si.com/nhl/2018/04/12/taylor-hall-new-jersey-devils-mvp-playoffs

Edited July 7, 2019 by LittleBallofHate

[Neb00rs]

29 minutes ago, Daniel said:

There’s no contradiction.  We’ve had a lot of picks in general over the past four drafts, including this one.  The sheer volume of players selected and the fact that the non-first rounders don’t need to be homeruns means we can live without what figure to be non-lottery picks.  

And I don’t see Hall having any desire to play for a Canadian team ever again, based on how he was treated in Edmonton and how media jackasses there still spread rumors about him.  That’s just my speculation though.

Otherwise Marner is almost the same player as Patrick Kane.  You would easily give up four first rounder to have that type of player at age 22.  The bigger issue is whether he prevents you from doing other things you need to do because of his salary.

You're taking a bigger bet than you're making it out to be on the prospects being NHL capable. I get how many players we've drafted but because picks so rarely turn out - most of them if not almost all of them won't make it. Even the next level offer sheet compensation down is much more manageable. Look back through past drafts - late first round picks are rarely ever stars but plenty turn into cheap NHLers. Huge dropoff in the second round and after. And additionally, some of our prospects won't be on ELCs in a few years either. It's a game of chance and not a great one, to give up four first round picks and then pay the player coming in an exorbitant amount of money. We can agree to disagree on the worthiness of taking that chance. It seems much more reasonable to me, to make a trade for a winger. Shero got Hall for Larsson. That won't happen again but trading less first round picks than an offer sheet would require could go very far in getting us someone on the wing. We also have a pretty full roster with little waivers flexibility - we're in a good position to trade players and picks for a better winger.

I'm obviously speculating on Hall too, he spent time in Kingston as a teen and I follow him pretty closely on social media - he seems to love Toronto and seems very connected with the city. He's also said good things about the NY/NJ area. Having Toronto off the market is just one less contender destination out there for Hall and it happens to be a place he enjoys. 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Neb00rs

[jagknife]

2 hours ago, titans04 said:

I would bet it's just Brooks pulling some more crap out of his ass.  Yet here we are debating it.  

But by you guys posting here, I don’t have to click his sh!tty article and get him traffic, so victories! 

[NJDevils1214]

4 hours ago, MadDog2020 said:

 

EDIT:

Also:

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by NJDevils1214

[titans04]

Welp the good news is the clowns will have a bigger available wardrobe to choose from when Cherry retires. PK maybe even able to pick up some new outfits as well.

 

[jagknife]

4 hours ago, NJDevils1214 said:

EDIT:

Also:

 

Steve Simmons being a complete douche bag and wrong? Weird!

[vadvlfan]

1 hour ago, jagknife said:

Steve Simmons being a complete douche bag and wrong? Weird!

Do you think Aho's agent played Habs? (in the time period that you could discuss w/ RFA's) said agent told Habs he'd be honored to come to Montreal!

On the Brooksie article discussed above? (consider the source) 13 mil-..........................nah.  

[mfitz804]

17 minutes ago, vadvlfan said:

Do you think Aho's agent played Habs? (in the time period that you could discuss w/ RFA's) said agent told Habs he'd be honored to come to Montreal!

On the Brooksie article discussed above? (consider the source) 13 mil-..........................nah.  

The player agrees to it knowing he’s forcing the current team’s hand into giving him a deal he may otherwise not have been offered at that time. 

Given that nobody has successfully offer sheeted anyone since what, 2007? It’s all part of the player’s negotiating tactics. 

So, in that respect, yes, the team submitting the offer sheet gets played. But so too does the current team. 

[jagknife]

1 hour ago, vadvlfan said:

Do you think Aho's agent played Habs? (in the time period that you could discuss w/ RFA's) said agent told Habs he'd be honored to come to Montreal!

On the Brooksie article discussed above? (consider the source) 13 mil-..........................nah.  

Steve Simmons was the one who said Rogers sports was cutting ties with Cherry in an apparently baseless article. 

[MB3]

Off topic but I randomly watched the highlights of our cup run in 2012 and I offer the following commentary:

1. Now that time has passed it’s hard to hate Kovy. We don’t beat the Rangers without him; period. We probably don’t beat the panthers.

2. I was at Game 7 in Florida, row 2. Still the best moment in my life. 

3. That team blew a LOT of leads. I mean a lot. Quick counting: 3-0 against the Panthers; loss. 2-0 against the Panthers, 3-2 OT win. 2-0 against the Panthers, 3-2 double OT win. 3-0 against the rangers, 4-3 win. 2-0 against the rangers, OT win. Sheesh. ^7^ must’ve been in rare form.

4. In the game 5 win against the rangers, Gionta’s first goal is like 1,000% offsides. Lucky there wasn’t review, because that play looks dead. 

5. I will hate Mark fayne until the day I die. Just, ugh. 

6. That team made the cup finals with Peter Harold playing major minutes. 

7. Throw back to Alexi Ponikarovski. What a guy. Also throw back to when Clarkson was a beast. 

8. fvck you Mark Fayne.

thank you for coming to my ted talk

[Neb00rs]

On 7/8/2019 at 12:02 AM, MB3 said:

Off topic but I randomly watched the highlights of our cup run in 2012 and I offer the following commentary:

1. Now that time has passed it’s hard to hate Kovy. We don’t beat the Rangers without him; period. We probably don’t beat the panthers.

2. I was at Game 7 in Florida, row 2. Still the best moment in my life. 

3. That team blew a LOT of leads. I mean a lot. Quick counting: 3-0 against the Panthers; loss. 2-0 against the Panthers, 3-2 OT win. 2-0 against the Panthers, 3-2 double OT win. 3-0 against the rangers, 4-3 win. 2-0 against the rangers, OT win. Sheesh. ^7^ must’ve been in rare form.

4. In the game 5 win against the rangers, Gionta’s first goal is like 1,000% offsides. Lucky there wasn’t review, because that play looks dead. 

5. I will hate Mark fayne until the day I die. Just, ugh. 

 6. That team made the cup finals with Peter Harold playing major minutes. 

7. Throw back to Alexi Ponikarovski. What a guy. Also throw back to when Clarkson was a beast. 

8. fvck you Mark Fayne.

thank you for coming to my ted talk

Don't forget about SalvaGretzky. I go down the YouTube memory lane of that run every so often. A great time to be a Devils fan and a great time on this board.

It was such a special run because no one really expected anything from the Devils going into those playoffs. The team hadn't really clicked yet and they were coming off a year in which they missed the playoffs for the first time in over a decade - a special year in itself for the way the team went from horrendous under J-Mac to magical under Lemaire.

All the way through the Panthers series the Devils still didn't look like a contender. We almost didn't get past that round and when Henrique scored that goal it was like, "holy sh!t did that just happen?"

 

 

Then it was nerve-racking going into the Flyers series- they absolutely manhandled us in the 2009-10 playoffs, #17's first playoff series, in a year we expected to do big things. It felt like we were going to be in for a tough series, as the Devils were a team that was lucky to get out of round 1. I was scared to watch game 1 because I thought it would look like that 09-10 series when Mark Fraser was a mainstay on our defense. But, to my surprise, we came out looking much more even with the Flyers than two years before. Still, we lost game 1 and it felt like we were going down a similar path. Then I sat down for game 2 and it was like, "holy crap what just happened?" Everything started to click and we just absolutely dominated the Flyers in their building.

 

 

And the rise of the Devils was in full swing after game 3 with the Poni goal. I'll never forget that one. The Devils were pressuring the Flyers in the offensive zone and they had us pretty locked down, but all of a sudden (credit the coaches here) out of nowhere #17 appeared at the top of the zone circling like a shark - he had been stealthily deployed onto the ice with a really timely change - and he picked up the puck and the Flyers didn't know what to do, they went completely limp, they seemed confused and scared - they didn't see #17 coming - he skated around 75% of the ice surface with the puck before throwing it back down to Poni for the goal. That was the moment I knew the Devils were going to win that series and I knew they'd win 4-1. The Flyers were broken in that moment.

 

 

It should be noted that it helped a bit that Ilya Bryzgalov was terrible that series:

 

 

Even as high as we were riding though, it wasn't fun to know we were playing the Rangers next. Winning didn't just mean the Devils advancing, it meant stopping the Tortarella-led Rangers from getting to the Cup final. The good news for us is that Marty was looking like young Marty again just in time to run into Lundqvist who seemed damn near unbeatable at that point in his career. Lundqvist had a .930 save percentage that season and ended up winning the Vezina. Still, Marty came to play:

 

 

As far as the memories from that series goes, Game 6 was great but game 5 stands out to me as well. The series was tied 2-2 and it felt like whoever took that game might take the series. But the nerves quickly dissipated when we went up 3-0 early. The Devils were just killing it. And even though we had given up so many leads that season, as MB3 mentioned, it felt like a 3-goal lead would do it. And then the Rangers came back and tied it and it felt like, "Yup, I've seen this before...we get a lead, then we lose it and never score again for the rest of the game." When Ryan Carter scored to make it 4-3, it felt like that curse was broken. It was especially weird because the live camera didn't even capture the puck going into the net, it was like the camera didn't believe we could score again either.

 

 

The fourth line was amazing those playoffs. We got a hint something special was a-brew when Stephen Gionta scored in that final game of the season. No one thought he'd ever make anything of himself as an NHLer. And here he was, first game of the season for Stephen, the Vincent Benedict to Brian Gionta's Julius Benedict, scoring the game winning goal against the Ottawa Senators.

 

 

And the fourth line never stopped scoring - every time you thought they would finally come back down to Earth, they just kept coming up with big goals. 

 

 

Two moments in game 6 stand out in my memory. The first, was #17's powerplay goal. Over the previous two years the Devils had struggled so much with the powerplay. The year prior they finished 28th in the league in the man-advantage. In 2011-12 it improved to 14th, and while it still wasn't always so consistent or organized, it was really getting there. Then the Devils just started to click in those 2011-12 playoffs. And the "clicking" culminated when they scored that flawless powerplay goal, with every player on the ice for the Devils touching the puck in a cycle of passes that left the Rangers bewildered and the puck in their net. It was...in shorthand...perfection. I think it was Pierre McGuire who remarked that when they scored, Adam Oates and Pete DeBoer looked at each other like, "Ho-ly shiiitt." After all the struggles with the PP, it was mastered in that moment.

 

 

And then of course, there was "They SCORE!!! Henrique...it's OVER!" So fitting that it was Doc who got to announce that. Sure, he was the national guy now, he wasn't the Devils announcer, but you could hear it in his voice, he was happy. "It's OVER" were just the perfect words as with that goal so many years of frustration evaporated, not just the years upon years of Rangers fan bullsh!t, but just everything - from Matteau's goal, to years of Rangers fans gloating about Lundqvist, to the loss to the Rangers in the '08 playoffs, to the loss to the Canes in the '09 playoffs, to the disappointing 2010-11 season. All was better now because the rookie, the son of tobacco farmers from Brantford, Ontario (as Doc so eloquently put it during the postgame celebration), was a motherfvcking finisher.

 

 

Doc had a lot of great lines during that postgame, I especially liked when he described Marty and Henrik on the handshake line as, "The men with the masks up like welders' helmets..." But the best thing Doc did, was right after the goal, when he just shut the fvck up and took a back seat to the Devils' celebration. Doc was always great like that - always knew when not to make it about himself. I was at that game, but I've appreciated his work in my countless times watching the replays over and over again. As a side plot, that series felt like a final hurrah for Doc and the Devils

But I digress, it didn't feel real that the Devils were going back to the Cup final - it had been so long - by Devils standards - that we had been to the final. The Devils weren't a favorite going in and I don't know if any of you remember but almost every hockey pundit and fan predicted the Devils to lose every series. I saved a bunch of those predictions:

 

 

There was just so much vomitous stuff from the media during those playoffs:

 

 

Anyway, I go back to what Chico, the over-the-top ham that he is, said after Stephen Gionta scored that GWG in the final game of the regular season, "It doesn't matter about size, if you've got heart and if you've got a will and a desire to drive the net, you're gonna get some of these." The Devils had plenty of heart and desire throughout the season though - it only got them so far. The thing is, the Devils were not just some ragtag squad of scrubs squeaking through the playoffs on belief alone - they were much better than even they knew they were and they had to believe that. When they began to buy-in to what DeBoer and his staff were preaching, opponents didn't know what hit them. The Devils peaked at just the right time.

And that's where this post ends, the Kings series doesn't much exist in my mind - it's not important - that was such a special run, culminating in victory over our greatest enemy. There was nothing like seeing the defeated, kneeling Rangers slumped over the ice in disbelief as the Devils piled on top of each other. That moment was a picture of dishonered samurai, defeated in battle, kneeling to commit seppuku, ritual suicide via disembowelment by sword (or hockey stick), as the greater warriors reveled in glory. No matter where Adam Henrique goes in the NHL, when he comes to NJ, his beers are paid for. We can't be stuck in the past though, so if you've read through this whole post I hope you enjoyed reminiscing with me but I leave you with this:

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Neb00rs