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Fire Hynes


Daniel

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Shero also got the benefit of TWO lotto wins, and a third #1 overall falling into his lap because of an incompetent GM.  And still we're getting pretty much the same results we did at the end of the Lou era on the verge of having to lose Hall and Vatanen starting rebuild 2.0, while Lou's proving now he was held back more by Conte at the end than anything else.

Edited by NJDevs4978
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15 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

STH always think “real fans” are STH. Meanwhile, half of them go to the games just to talk to each other, and barely even pay attention. I would assume that excludes those who are big enough fans to hang out on this message board.

I don't think this way and the STH's around me go to watch the games. Not sure how you can even determine that while being at a game either. 

Do some people? Sure but I think it's silly to say that most STH's aren't there to watch the game. I could think of tons of other things I could do for a lot less money if I just wanted to socialize with people. 

Edited by Satans Hockey
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1 hour ago, NJDevs4978 said:

Shero also got the benefit of TWO lotto wins, and a third #1 overall falling into his lap because of an incompetent GM.  And still we're getting pretty much the same results we did at the end of the Lou era on the verge of having to lose Hall and Vatanen starting rebuild 2.0, while Lou's proving now he was held back more by Conte at the end than anything else.

Yeah, that's what's most troubling to me.  Lou's team faltered a bit at the end because we were so good for so long, that your assets and ability to make things happen gets more and more difficult to the point where you're almost out of options.  Because of those teams that faltered, Shero inherited two #1 overall picks like you mentioned, and although those guys are still very young, it's not like he will really deserve credit for anything that they have or will accomplish.  I'm not ready to put a bullseye on Shero's head and give him the boot yet, but we're at the point where you start to evaluate his work and look at how things have transpired.

Also, for the record, I disagree with SD's notion that rebuilds don't or shouldn't have any expected timeframe to pan out.  You have to at least have some semblance of a timeline.  Granted it could be flexible and change, but to not have any expectations for when you're going to turn around a crappy club is really just not having any sort of plan whatsoever.  You can't just wing it and constantly say "Oh it takes time, let's not put a clock on this".  You do that, enough time passes, and before you know it you're the Toronto Maple Leafs going on 50 years without a Cup and enduring rebuild after rebuild in what seems like an endless cycle.

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8 hours ago, Nicomo said:

That excuse only has a slightly longer shelf life than “Zacha is only xx years old.” Once Schneider and Zajac are gone this will pretty much be a team Shero himself built. And as others have pointed out his more recent trades haven’t been working out, and besides the Hughes, Nico’s, and Bratt’s, his drafting hasn’t exactly been much to speak of either..

*and for the record I like Shero a lot, and am not even remotely close to wanting him replaced. Just getting a little sick of hearing about how it’s still Lou’s fault all these years later. Lou’s team is actually good right now...

With you on the bolded, and the general gist of this post.

Really hoping we can add Blackwood to the "picks that worked out list" in time. 

I touched on this in another post, but the PK and Gusev moves have put Shero at a sudden crossroads.  Many of us were willing to wait for Shero to spend his money wisely (and I think re-signing Hischier qualifies).  But if the wait was for a potentially shell-of-himself PK and a former KHLer who never pans out, that's not going sit well with too many fans (I'm definitely more hopeful with Gusev than PK). 

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We made the playoffs 2 seasons ago, we now have actual prospects that could play in the NHL and we have a young talented roster with most players under 30 years old. 

All of that in 4-5 years. To say the rebuild is a failure is just ridiculous. We were lucky to win the lottery twice, that also helped us get better faster. We made GIANT bounds compared to what most teams could have done in the same time frame yet nobody's happy

For most people here their worst enemy is their own expectations 

i mean. if you subscribe that it's all Hynes fault and that we should win more with the roster we have... then why sh!t on the rebuild? All a GM can do is build a roster and we were all veeeeeeeerrrry excited with the roster before the season started, on paper its good enough. If its not geling and working 100% now that's another problem

Edited by SterioDesign
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18 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

We made the playoffs 2 seasons ago, we now have actual prospects that could play in the NHL and we have a young talented roster with most players under 30 years old. 

All of that in 4-5 years. To say the rebuild is a failure is just ridiculous. We were lucky to win the lottery twice, that also helped us get better faster. We made GIANT bounds compared to what most teams could have done in the same time frame yet nobody's happy

For most people here their worst enemy is their own expectations 

i mean. if you subscribe that it's all Hynes fault and that we should win more with the roster we have... then why sh!t on the rebuild? All a GM can do is build a roster and we were all veeeeeeeerrrry excited with the roster before the season started, on paper its good enough. If its not geling and working 100% now that's another problem

Fair points, and I personally am not sh!tting on the rebuild, which is why in my earlier post I said that I'm not calling for Shero's head (yet).  I stand by my belief that you need to have at least some sort of rough timeframe for any given rebuild to pan out, but to your point, I don't think we're there yet.  I agree that we've made changes and things *should* be better than they were 4-5 seasons ago, but there are still some big question marks, and I think we're essentially at the point where you start to judge and evaluate those moves.

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1 hour ago, Satans Hockey said:

I don't think this way and the STH's around me go to watch the games. Not sure how you can even determine that while being at a game either. 

Do some people? Sure but I think it's silly to say that most STH's aren't there to watch the game. I could think of tons of other things I could do for a lot less money if I just wanted to socialize with people. 

I didn’t say most, I said half, and specifically excluded people dedicated enough to also post on this message board. 

You can determine that by watching STH’s stand with their back to the game or around the concourse instead of watching the game. I’ve noticed it at every game I’ve been to in the past 5 years. 

Which granted, isn’t as many as some because I’m not a STH. 

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16 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

We made the playoffs 2 seasons ago, we now have actual prospects that could play in the NHL and we have a young talented roster with most players under 30 years old. 

All of that in 4-5 years. To say the rebuild is a failure is just ridiculous. We were lucky to win the lottery twice, that also helped us get better faster. We made GIANT bounds compared to what most teams could have done in the same time frame yet nobody's happy

For most people here their worst enemy is their own expectations 

i mean. if you subscribe that it's all Hynes fault and that we should win more with the roster we have... then why sh!t on the rebuild? All a GM can do is build a roster and we were all veeeeeeeerrrry excited with the roster before the season started, on paper its good enough. If its not geling and working 100% now that's another problem

If you're referring to my post, I didn't call this a failure...like I said, I'm still on-board with Shero.  But I do think he's at a bit of a crossroads right now.  PK looks like a disaster so far, and that was clearly supposed to be a big-time "Now we're moving forward" splash kind of move.  And he's had some other deals not pay off as well...I feel for Shero in that I think moves like MoJo and Mueller were very reasonable ones to make at the time. 

The jury is out on his collection of young talent too...no one is wowing at Bingo right now...if you want to give them all incompletes, I would agree, it's too early to say that none of them will pan out, but it's hard to be thrilled with the returns to date.  Really hope Ty Smith is ready for next season. 

I'm still on Team Shero, and I think he's definitely been a little unlucky with some of his personnel moves as of late (but VERY lucky with getting to draft first overall twice)...but I think there's some reason for concern. 

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24 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I didn’t say most, I said half, and specifically excluded people dedicated enough to also post on this message board. 

You can determine that by watching STH’s stand with their back to the game or around the concourse instead of watching the game. I’ve noticed it at every game I’ve been to in the past 5 years. 

Which granted, isn’t as many as some because I’m not a STH. 

To be fair there are some STH’s who do other things at the game mainly because the team usually sucked over the last five years.

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20 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I didn’t say most, I said half, and specifically excluded people dedicated enough to also post on this message board. 

You can determine that by watching STH’s stand with their back to the game or around the concourse instead of watching the game. I’ve noticed it at every game I’ve been to in the past 5 years. 

Which granted, isn’t as many as some because I’m not a STH. 

I think half is still a huge over estimate, I just don't buy that many people aren't watching the game. There's no way you can even determine just by looking at me that I'm a STH holder because I don't wear a stupid lanyard, none of the STH around me that I know wear them either. 

There's always going to be people that are there just to socialize but I just don't think it's half the amount of STH the team has. 

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18 minutes ago, Satans Hockey said:

I think half is still a huge over estimate, I just don't buy that many people aren't watching the game. There's no way you can even determine just by looking at me that I'm a STH holder because I don't wear a stupid lanyard, none of the STH around me that I know wear them either. 

There's always going to be people that are there just to socialize but I just don't think it's half the amount of STH the team has. 

That’s fair. I didn’t mean “half” literally like I walked around checking or asking to see people’s lanyards. 

 

30 minutes ago, NJDevs4978 said:

To be fair there are some STH’s who do other things at the game mainly because the team usually sucked over the last five years.

That’s not fair to say, if you are that fair weather of a fan you shouldn’t buy season tickets anyway. Unless you are just going to socialize. 

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1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

If you're referring to my post, I didn't call this a failure...like I said, I'm still on-board with Shero.  But I do think he's at a bit of a crossroads right now.  PK looks like a disaster so far, and that was clearly supposed to be a big-time "Now we're moving forward" splash kind of move.  And he's had some other deals not pay off as well...I feel for Shero in that I think moves like MoJo and Mueller were very reasonable ones to make at the time. 

The jury is out on his collection of young talent too...no one is wowing at Bingo right now...if you want to give them all incompletes, I would agree, it's too early to say that none of them will pan out, but it's hard to be thrilled with the returns to date.  Really hope Ty Smith is ready for next season. 

I'm still on Team Shero, and I think he's definitely been a little unlucky with some of his personnel moves as of late (but VERY lucky with getting to draft first overall twice)...but I think there's some reason for concern. 

i was not referring to anyone's post specifically. Right now everyone is just frustrated and sh!tting / blaming anything they possibly can. We even have fans blasting the team after we win lol

Also well i'd invite anyone not happy right now to take the 2015 roster and prospects... and imagine a scenario where we'd have a MUCH better roster and how they would have done it and obviously leaving hindsight 20/20 out of it and obviously not making up trades like... McDavid for Greene. We had nothing to build on, nothing. What we have now is really damn near the best we could possibly get based on our timeframe. It takes a few years for prospects to usually hit the NHL if they ever do... 2-3 years or more... we're only like 4 sets of draft prospects in at the moment. in 2015, our top prospects after DECADES of drafting was Reid and he's STILL not a regular in the NHL. 

As for Shero, i liked him because of the way he handled things but he didn't stick to that with Hall so that's a strike in my book personally. Also obviously, i've been saying for years how overrated Subban was, not gonna get in another Subban debate but hard not to say i told you so at the moment. 

I also really fvcking hope Ty Smith can get his sh!t together and be something, we really need that. Also good to see Zacha (who's the last of Conte's sh!t legacy) actually looking like a capable NHLer

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I used to be on board with keeping Hynes until Shero finds a long term solution, but I no longer think that has to be the answer here. When watching these games, I get the sense that this group is being overcoached, and I really think it is what's crushing the development of the younger players. This season, hopes were high because the team added so many new pieces that were pretty solid bets to contribute. Subban, Gusev, Boqvist, and Hughes have all fallen short of those expectations to some degree. That's not to mention Bratt and Hischier, who looked like they were each due for big seasons. And I'm not hating on any of these players - I think they all can and will be useful players for this franchise. But it won't be with this coaching staff. 

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Look at the Islanders with Trotz. I dont really feel like on paper their roster is that much better than ours and look at the difference in results. No one is saying we should have the second most points in the nhl like them, but come on. We should not be almost last place in the standings, and at the bottom of every statistical category out there. 

 

Coaching matters. The Devils playing like this when the roster had no talent was one thing, we should demand/expect better.

 

Hynes has now sunk the bar for comparison so low I would take almost anyone. 

Edited by Toasterleavins
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10 hours ago, nessus said:

I used to be on board with keeping Hynes until Shero finds a long term solution, but I no longer think that has to be the answer here. When watching these games, I get the sense that this group is being overcoached, and I really think it is what's crushing the development of the younger players. This season, hopes were high because the team added so many new pieces that were pretty solid bets to contribute. Subban, Gusev, Boqvist, and Hughes have all fallen short of those expectations to some degree. That's not to mention Bratt and Hischier, who looked like they were each due for big seasons. And I'm not hating on any of these players - I think they all can and will be useful players for this franchise. But it won't be with this coaching staff. 

 

10 hours ago, Toasterleavins said:

Look at the Islanders with Trotz. I dont really feel like on paper their roster is that much better than ours and look at the difference in results. No one is saying we should have the second most points in the nhl like them, but come on. We should not be almost last place in the standings, and at the bottom of every statistical category out there. 

 

Coaching matters. The Devils playing like this when the roster had no talent was one thing, we should demand/expect better.

 

Hynes has now sunk the bar for comparison so low I would take almost anyone. 

A classic micromanager, he does not seem to really know his players nor does he trust them.  A real control freak....

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10 hours ago, Toasterleavins said:

Look at the Islanders with Trotz. I dont really feel like on paper their roster is that much better than ours and look at the difference in results. No one is saying we should have the second most points in the nhl like them, but come on. We should not be almost last place in the standings, and at the bottom of every statistical category out there. 

 

Coaching matters. The Devils playing like this when the roster had no talent was one thing, we should demand/expect better.

 

Hynes has now sunk the bar for comparison so low I would take almost anyone. 

The analytics people in the organization who almost certainly played a big role in constructing this roster to begin with will tell you that the Isles are only good because of luck and goaltending and Trotz is overrated.  In other words, they tell Shero what he wants to hear.

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I'm on board to fire Hynes to shake things up but i still can't fault Shero that much.

It's literally the first year Hynes has a decent roster to work with.

I'd say in the long run not firing Conte when he's been incredibly bad at his job for over a decade is still impacting this franchise negatively way way more. It's hard to rebuild from scratch and having no assets at all

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7 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

I'm on board to fire Hynes to shake things up but i still can't fault Shero that much.

It's literally the first year Hynes has a decent roster to work with.

I'd say in the long run not firing Conte when he's been incredibly bad at his job for over a decade is still impacting this franchise negatively way way more. It's hard to rebuild from scratch and having no assets at all

Outside of Nico, Jack and Bratt, what good drafting have Ray and Castro’s done? 
 

None of there picks really look to be much of anything. 

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4 minutes ago, sundstrom said:

Outside of Nico, Jack and Bratt, what good drafting have Ray and Castro’s done? 

None of there picks really look to be much of anything. 

Blackwood's at least playing with the big club...when you can say that about a goalie that's a Devils draftee, that's cause for celebration these days.

Obviously the jury's out on him, but I'm hoping he at least can become a solid #1.

It's still a little early to kill Ray's drafts, but yeah, we gotta start seeing something fairly soon out of some of these other picks.  Early returns at Bingo are looking iffy.  And though I can't really quibble too much with his trades, he really needs one to work out soon.  Palms, Hall (and Vatanen) are old news now...MoJo, Mueller, and PK are fresh in my mind, and I don't want to beat the dead horse too much on this, but PK looks more disastrous by the game.  11 games without a point from him...and he couldn't look more clunky and clumsy. 

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5 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Blackwood's at least playing with the big club...when you can say that about a goalie that's a Devils draftee, that's cause for celebration these days.

Obviously the jury's out on him, but I'm hoping he at least can become a solid #1.

It's still a little early to kill Ray's drafts, but yeah, we gotta start seeing something fairly soon out of some of these other picks.  Early returns at Bingo are looking iffy.  And though I can't really quibble too much with his trades, he really needs one to work out soon.  Palms, Hall (and Vatanen) are old news now...MoJo, Mueller, and PK are fresh in my mind, and I don't want to beat the dead horse too much on this, but PK looks more disastrous by the game.  11 games without a point from him...and he couldn't look more clunky and clumsy. 

I am also not writing off Boqvist and Smith yet.

But yeah I am with you and others on this.  I am puzzled at how much adoration Shero and Castron get for drafting when it looks pedestrian outside of those #1OA picks.  I guess pedestrian is an improvement over disaster under Conte.

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7 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Blackwood's at least playing with the big club...when you can say that about a goalie that's a Devils draftee, that's cause for celebration these days.

Obviously the jury's out on him, but I'm hoping he at least can become a solid #1.

It's still a little early to kill Ray's drafts, but yeah, we gotta start seeing something fairly soon out of some of these other picks.  Early returns at Bingo are looking iffy.  And though I can't really quibble too much with his trades, he really needs one to work out soon.  Palms, Hall (and Vatanen) are old news now...MoJo, Mueller, and PK are fresh in my mind, and I don't want to beat the dead horse too much on this, but PK looks more disastrous by the game.  11 games without a point from him...and he couldn't look more clunky and clumsy. 

Blackwood was a Lou/Conte pick so Ray doesn't get credit on him even though he just got the team. That whole draft wasn't on Ray.

Yes - too early to write off Boqvist and Smith - I will give you that.

But the Studenic, Zetterlund, McLeod, Bastian, Anderson, Gignac, Walsh et. al. Nobody looks like someone who is going to do much at the NHL level.

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Day after another loss to a bad team even where we got a goal that the league admitted should have been disallowed.  In the press conference, John Hynes once again blames everyone else but himself.  As of Thanksgiving, the Devils are right where they ended last season.  He's still the coach the next day. 

Oh, I have the reason, in case you can't divine it from your spreadsheet.  Ray Shero is tanking another season.  And it's like he melded together Mike Yeo, Ray Handley and Rich Kotite to form the perfect terrible coach to do it. 

When Ray sets his mind to being awful, he can at least accomplish that.  Not like he's accomplished anything else in his 30 years being in hockey.

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7 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

I'm on board to fire Hynes to shake things up but i still can't fault Shero that much.

It's literally the first year Hynes has a decent roster to work with.

I'd say in the long run not firing Conte when he's been incredibly bad at his job for over a decade is still impacting this franchise negatively way way more. It's hard to rebuild from scratch and having no assets at all

Everyone here thought we added quality parts in the off season  we needed to improve. Everyone! Jack Hughes (is struggling to say the least against men-He will be great though) Everyone thought Boquist was next Forsberg (not even close) Gusev was the final piece of the puzzle (getting better but a ways away) PK has been not so good so far (and not talking about offensive input) Hayden (he is what he is) Also I feel the reason Hynes plays Hayden/Rooney is for physicality. That's why Bratt/ Zacha are sitting I guess. 

So has this team underperformed? Or,  is the team (as constructed)  not nearly good enough? or overated? The new guys (#86, #97, #90, #15, PK haven't been here long enough to "tune Hynes out" I'm just skeptical of Hynes replacement. ( likely Kowalski) 

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